"An Eye for An Eye" ... and everybody goes blind!

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ok I have a solution seeing that so many people feel that " legitimate" governments with conventional military forces are justified in defending themselves but poor people without these resources are just blood thirsty terrorists, why don't we simply divert the BILLIONS we give Israel annually to the Palestinians ? That why they can arm themselves to the teeth with American tanks, planes, helicopters just like Israel. This would give them the conventional army we all seem to need them to have and they could then fight it out with Israel on equal terms ! PROBLEM SOLVED ! no more terrorism just good ol' fashioned warfare we can all relate to ! YEE HAW ! ! ! !

[mr_gyptian]

even though it has been repeated ad nauseum. Or Saddam's 25k "reward" to homicide bomber families?

To say that the Arab world sympathizes with the Palestinians is hilarious. They treat Palestinians like absolute shit. We treated indians on reservations better than the Arabs treat palestinians.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by Tippster
How would we feel if some outside powers arbitrarily decided to give Georgia back to the Cherokees? It WAS theirs historically, after all... Why was it OK to force the South African government to abandon "Apartheid," yet the same policy is perfectly reasonable in Israel?

There is no apartheid in Israel. Israeli Arabs have all the rights of other Israelis (there may be discrimination, unfortunately, but there's also discrimination against different types of Jews). The only difference is Arab Israelis do not have mandatory army service (some do serve, though).

When you have no means of resisting "fairly," how can you not expect these "terrorist" actions? How else would YOU fight the oppressor?

If Israel decided that it had no way to counter terrorism 'fairly', would it then be OK for Israel to simply level Gaza and the West Bank? By your logic, it is. But I know you're actually arguing for a double standard.

This was a can of worms opened by the UN in its infancy. We seem to know better, now that it's too late. Unfortunately for both sides, there's no way to turn back the clock.

It's a can of worms opened by Arab refusals to recognize Israel and accept a two-state solution. The only plans the Palestinians have claimed to be open to have been those that could never work.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by up an down
good point mr. g. what's done is done, BUT israel needs to admit the truth about the past and start to treat palestinians as equal citizens, meaning compensation for land takeaways and land to live on now,

This would be a wonderful idea. How about the same for the million+ Jews expelled from Arab countries?

While we're at it, how come no one ever expresses concern for the Palestinians (and other Arabs) who live under Arab oppression? Why are there no protests against Jordanian slaughter of thousands of Palestinians, or Syrian secret police actions against Palestinians?
Those questions are mostly rhetorical, as there is a long history of anti-Zionism (which, as Martin Luther King noted, is usually just anti-Semitism dressed up) around the world used to attack Israel.

[up an down]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
This would be a wonderful idea. How about the same for the million+ Jews expelled from Arab countries?

While we're at it, how come no one ever expresses concern for the Palestinians (and other Arabs) who live under Arab oppression? Why are there no protests against Jordanian slaughter of thousands of Palestinians, or Syrian secret police actions against Palestinians?
Those questions are mostly rhetorical, as there is a long history of anti-Zionism (which, as Martin Luther King noted, is usually just anti-Semitism dressed up) around the world used to attack Israel.

why does a crime committed against palestinians by arabs, jordanians, or syria absolve crimes against palestinians committed by israel? once again israel (and they could do it if they wanted to) needs to fess up to what they are to blame for, plo needs to fess up to what they are to blame for, if they ever want to end the pattern they are in. and as i said USA NEEDS TO STOP GIVING MONEY TO 2 SETS OF CRIMINALS

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by board
ok I have a solution seeing that so many people feel that " legitimate" governments with conventional military forces are justified in defending themselves but poor people without these resources are just blood thirsty terrorists,

The Palestinians chose terrorism instead of other options open to them. You are very uninformed if you don't know that they've had multiple opportunities to have their own country. It's well worth noting that during the time they were 'occupied' by Egypt and Jordan they never had an offer of statehood--it's only with Israel that such offers have been made, even when their stated goal was the destruction of Israel.
How about a Palestine in Jordan and the West Bank? Jordan should be considered Palestinian land, since much of it is populated by Palestinians--but since it's Arabs in control of Jordan, and not Jews, no one will ever make issue of this (particularly not in Jordan, since when the Palestinians did agitate for this King Hussein had them slaughtered in the streets).

The reasons they are called bloodthirsy terrorists is because that is what they have demonstrated themselves to be, hundreds of times over. I would never call all Palestinians terrorists, or supporters of terrorism, but the unfortunately most of them are.

The most recent plan endorsed by the PA is virtually identical to the plan for statehood offered by Israel under the Barak administration (98% of West Bank, all of Gaza). Why did the Palestinians refuse that plan, like they did all earlier ones? Because they knew that at that time Israel would grant it, and unfortunately peace does not serve their interests.
It's sad, but that's how it is.

[Blurred Elevens]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The only solution to this conflict is to ship all the Jews out of the Middle East and put them somewhere else. THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Originally posted by up an down
why does a crime committed against palestinians by arabs, jordanians, or syria absolve crimes against palestinians committed by israel? once again israel (and they could do it if they wanted to) needs to fess up to what they are to blame for, plo needs to fess up to what they are to blame for, if they ever want to end the pattern they are in. and as i said USA NEEDS TO STOP GIVING MONEY TO 2 SETS OF CRIMINALS

I never said it did, but I would like to know why intentional killings of civilian Palestinians by Arab countries are tolerated, while Israel's targeting of terrorists elicits condemnation.

To equate the Israeli government with the Palestinian terrorists is to miss the point and make your argument empty. Israel is a democracy that tries to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties, the PA is an autocracy that shelters and supports terror groups that do the opposite.

[Dr. Gaper]

Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION.

Glass, man, sheet of glass.

[Dexter Rutecki]

OK, Gaper, you quoting Blurred got me to finally click on a post of his and read it.
His new name should be Adolph 'Final Solution' Airdog. No wonder he looks stiff in the air--all that goose-stepping.

[truth]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
OK, Gaper, you quoting Blurred got me to finally click on a post of his and read it.
His new name should be Adolph 'Final Solution' Airdog. No wonder he looks stiff in the air--all that goose-stepping.

Whatever Dex...speaking as a Jew I have to concur with Blurred. Oh, by the way, that Hitler bit was cute.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Wow. That's ludicrous.
Why is the solution not to move all the Palestinians? How about getting rid of all the Tibetans? Hutus? American Indians? Mormons? Kosovars?

Jeezus, some seriously demented thoughts here.

[truth]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Wow. That's ludicrous.
Why is the solution not to move all the Palestinians? How about getting rid of all the Tibetans? Hutus? American Indians? Mormons? Kosovars?

Jeezus, some seriously demented thoughts here.

It's really just common sense Dex. Locating a Jewish state in the middle of Arab world is never going to work. Bulldoze all the holy sites and vacate the premises. Let the fucking arab mongrels fight over the scraps and be done with it. Now, if the land had oil I'd say we should take it for ourselves, which is what we should have done with Iraq. No, really, I'm serious.

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Originally posted by truth
. Let the fucking arab mongrels

WOW ! that is truly fucked up ! ! !


btw Jews have a very legitimate right to live in the middle east ! I just don't agree with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

[Dexter Rutecki]

I guess Israel could've gone in the middle of Europe--yeah, that would've worked. Europeans have a long history of treating Jews well.
There were all sorts of wacky plans for putting a Jewish state in Africa, North America, other places, but historically and based on where people lived (by WWII Palestine was full of Jews) there was really only one sensible (and obviously imperfect) choice. I don't think Israel or the World should give in to Arab intransigence. And I doubt there's anywhere in the world that a Jewish state would not have come under some form of attack and hypocritical condemnation.
Unfortunately, the only oil-producing area ever occupied by Israel (Sinai) was given up in exchange for peace. I have to admit that I do share some of your ideas about oil, but I try not to openly admit to that...

[truth]

Originally posted by board
WOW ! that is truly fucked up ! ! !


btw Jews have a very legitimate right to live in the middle east ! I just don't agree with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.

Yeah, kinda like Dex's Goose Stepping bit...tit for tat.

[truth]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
I guess Israel could've gone in the middle of Europe--yeah, that would've worked. Europeans have a long history of treating Jews well.
There were all sorts of wacky plans for putting a Jewish state in Africa, North America, other places, but historically and based on where people lived (by WWII Palestine was full of Jews) there was really only one sensible (and obviously imperfect) choice. I don't think Israel or the World should give in to Arab intransigence. And I doubt there's anywhere in the world that a Jewish state would not have come under some form of attack and hypocritical condemnation.
Unfortunately, the only oil-producing area ever occupied by Israel (Sinai) was given up in exchange for peace. I have to admit that I do share some of your ideas about oil, but I try not to openly admit to that...

Agreed...100%. The creation of a Jewish state is idiotic. No need. Countires founded on a religious idology are flawed by nature.

[Tippster]

Wow, Dexter, I can't believe we're not on the same page on an issue. Let's have at it, then:

(Disclaimer: This is just an intellectual excercise. No offense, or hubris, is intended)

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
There is no apartheid in Israel. Israeli Arabs have all the rights of other Israelis (there may be discrimination, unfortunately, but there's also discrimination against different types of Jews). The only difference is Arab Israelis do not have mandatory army service (some do serve, though).

Unfortunately that's not the case. The Israeli Charter clearly states it is to be a "Jewish State," and all Goyim do NOT have the same rights as the Jews. Yes, Palestinian Israelis are represented in the Knesset, yet no where near their approx. 50/50 representation in the demographics. Also, every Palestinian Israeli has a "special" passport - different than a Jews, marking them for what they are for all to see. Gee, how nice. Bottom line is Arab citizens are a separate category from Jewish citizens - the literal definition of "Apartheid."

If Israel decided that it had no way to counter terrorism 'fairly', would it then be OK for Israel to simply level Gaza and the West Bank? By your logic, it is. But I know you're actually arguing for a double standard.

Since they've resorted to indescriminate bombing and unlawful detention, along with virtually killing the economic viability of the Occupied areas, I'd say they're way ahead of the both of us. If you think Gaza ISN'T leveled you're seeing different reports than I. And yes, there can never be parity of action between a highly modern military force and a suppressed people. To use the SA example again: the ANC and others used "terrorist" tactics as well. What double-standard are you referring to?[/b][/quote]

It's a can of worms opened by Arab refusals to recognize Israel and accept a two-state solution. The only plans the Palestinians have claimed to be open to have been those that could never work.

I'm by no means trying to insinuate that the Arabs are blameless - both sides are being obstinate beyond measure in this. If there was a true "Two State" solution - and Arafat should have jumped at the chance offered him by Ehud Barak. He overplayed his hand, and quite possibly lost himself a country.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Heh--goyim...

Originally posted by Tippster
Unfortunately that's not the case. The Israeli Charter clearly states it is to be a "Jewish State," and all Goyim do NOT have the same rights as the Jews. Yes, Palestinian Israelis are represented in the Knesset, yet no where near their approx. 50/50 representation in the demographics.

Representation is directly proportional, Palestinians are nowhere near 50% of the population. Aside from the army service, passports, and license plates, I'm aware of no institutional differences in citizenship. It's been quite awhile since I've seen Israel's constitution, but I'm pretty sure it guarantees equal rights. The passports and license plates may superficially violate this, but in times of war all countries have enacted similar measures.

Also, every Palestinian Israeli has a "special" passport - different than a Jews, marking them for what they are for all to see. Gee, how nice. Bottom line is Arab citizens are a separate category from Jewish citizens - the literal definition of "Apartheid."

Got ahead of myself. See above.

Since they've resorted to indescriminate bombing and unlawful detention, along with virtually killing the economic viability of the Occupied areas, I'd say they're way ahead of the both of us.

Again, there's never been indiscriminate bombing. Some of the detentions are very questionable, but unlike our Guantanamo detainees, for example, Palestinians do have recourse to Israeli courts which regularly order them freed. Also, I think you're referring mostly to Gazans and West Bank people who aren't citizens and were arrested by the military. Most of them aren't the 'innocents' some would have you believe them to be.

If you think Gaza ISN'T leveled you're seeing different reports than I.

Gaza's never been in great shape (Egypt bears a great deal of responsibility for this), but if you think it looks anything like Grozny or other places that have suffered large-scale artillery attacks, then you don't really know what Gaza looks like. Any building that's destroyed is specifically designated to be taken down, and unless it happens in a targeted attack (on a terrorist) then Israel removes occupants first.
I don't want to do this all day, but keeping the Palestinians in squalid refugee camps has served the interest of many different Arab states and governments.

And yes, there can never be parity of action between a highly modern military force and a suppressed people. To use the SA example again: the ANC and others used "terrorist" tactics as well. What double-standard are you referring to?

The double standard we see all the time--the Palestinian groups kill Israeli civilians in terrorist attacks, and there is muted worldwide response, if any. When Israel kills the very people intent on its own destruction, the world reacts with outrage. It's completely ridiculous and hypocritical--even the U.S. and Britain have condemned Israel's killing of terrorists, at the same time that we occupy countries thousands of miles away to get terrorists who might threaten us (did Iraq really threaten us?). Israel acts against a terrorist within a few miles of its biggest city, a man who helped kill hundreds, and look at how the world reacts. Double standard? Unquestionably.
Plus the double standard of Arab opression going unmentioned while Israel is attacked at the UN and everywhere else.

I'm by no means trying to insinuate that the Arabs are blameless - both sides are being obstinate beyond measure in this. If there was a true "Two State" solution - and Arafat should have jumped at the chance offered him by Ehud Barak. He overplayed his hand, and quite possibly lost himself a country.

It wasn't the first time, and I doubt it'll be the last. To quote (maybe paraphrase) Golda Meir: "The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

[bad_roo]

I still can't get over the fact that the Israeli forces used an Apache helicopter and a Hellfire missile to nail a guy being trundled along in a wheelchair. Would they have gone nuclear if he was in a minivan?

[Dexter Rutecki]

Actually, he was driven in a minivan, so I guess not...
A terrorist in a wheelchair is still a terrorist. British and American forces use 2000 pound bombs on mud huts, I doubt they use them when they don't need to. Israeli soldiers in Gaza seem to cause a lot of problems whether they get the guy or not, so this was probably the best option (well, the PA could've shut him down and given him back to Israel, but fighting terrorism isn't on their agenda).

[Buster Highmen]

Originally posted by Dexter Rutecki
Israel has never, and I doubt it ever will, launch attacks meant to kill civilians.

\
Patent bullshit, Dex. They have a level of collateral damage that includes civilians, get real.

[Dexter Rutecki]

edit: to point out that I used the phrase 'meant to kill civilians'. Palestinian attacks are meant to kill civilians, Israeli attacks are meant to kill terrorists.

Read again, Buster. Intent is what counts, no matter how you look at it. Yes, civilian deaths are accepted, but you can't claim they don't try to minimize them. If they didn't, you'd see a big difference (again, I'll refer you to the Russians in Grozny, or the U.S. in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.). When Israel carpet bombs the territories then you might have a point.

[Buster Highmen]

Israel is at war with Palestine. Civilian deaths are obvious consequences. You can accuse me of splitting hairs, and I shall accuse you of the same.

Israel has needed for a long time to make a more serious effort at resolving the conflict.

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D'OH !