protecting the troops? yeah right

[natty dread]

NYT:
June 14, 2007
Editorial
A Failure to Protect Our Troops
The Bush administration and military leaders in Washington are always claiming that they will do anything to support American troops fighting in Iraq. That makes it all the more infuriating to learn that, for more than two years, the Pentagon largely ignored urgent requests from field commanders for better armor-protected vehicles that could have saved untold lives and limbs.

Improvised explosive devices, or I.E.D.’s, can blast through the flat underbelly of the military’s standard Humvees, maiming and killing the soldiers within. These devices, a low-tech response to America’s overwhelming military power, are now causing 70 percent to 80 percent of the American combat deaths in Iraq.

More than two years ago, according to newly disclosed documents, Marine commanders in Al Anbar Province, a center of the Sunni insurgency, submitted an urgent request for more than 1,100 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected Vehicles, or MRAPs, that have V-shaped bottoms able to deflect blasts from below. For reasons yet to be satisfactorily explained, military officials initially sat on the request and then ordered relatively few.

Some, second-guessing the judgment of the battlefield commanders, apparently felt that Humvees with upgraded armor could do the job. Others may have been reluctant to invest billions of dollars in vehicles that might have little use after Iraq. Turf battles were probably also a factor, as a large-scale purchase might threaten future weapons programs. But Iraq is the war that Americans are fighting and dying in today.

Only now are Pentagon leaders, prodded by Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. and other critics on Capitol Hill, rushing to ramp up production. Congress has accelerated funding to buy more than 7,000 of the vehicles by early next year, and the military services are seeking some 21,000 in all, at a cost that could exceed $20 billion. Defense Secretary Robert Gates has declared his determination to “produce as many of these vehicles and get them into the field as fast as possible,” though the precise number needed has yet to be established.

Unfortunately, the MRAPs will remain vulnerable to the deadliest I.E.D.’s, known as “explosively formed penetrators,” which destroy vehicles from the side. The military is looking for ways to add armor to the MRAPs and is testing another new vehicle to counter that threat.

If the small companies that make these vehicles are not able to produce the quantities needed quickly, President Bush and Secretary Gates ought to make this a crash program and enlist major manufacturers.

There can be no excuse for failing to provide the best possible protection for American troops in this disastrous war.

[Buzzworthy]

I am sick of this. My buddy just left for NUMBER 2 time over there.
Fucking sucks.

[bklyn]

Sucks all around.

[AKPogue]

Since you guys know all about the military why don't you give me an education on how the system works. You get some stupid fucking article that doesn't say shit about anything!!! Why don't you just shut the fuck up!! The problem isn't Bush it is the middle management of the government. In the Military you have guys making decisions who have never even seen Iraq let alone know what the hell to do there. I could go on and on about this but Fuck it. Keep your bitching and I am really interested to see where this leads us. In the middle of reading the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and there are some interesting parallels.

[Hutch]

Fuck. with all of the $$$,000,000,000,000s going over and the IED problem being 2 years old you would think that they would be all over buying whatever armor would help lessen casualties, regardless of the cost.

Edit - with all due respect to you, AKPogue, where is this hostility towards people who want fewer casualties coming from? If Bush were as concerned as it seems to me he should be about protecting the troops, then he would be riding herd on these mid-level bureaucrats to buy the MRAPs, no?

[Tuckerman]

You get some stupid fucking article that doesn't say shit about anything!!! The problem isn't Bush it is the middle management of the government. In the Military you have guys making decisions who have never even seen Iraq let alone know what the hell to do there.

Calling it a article makes it sound like real journalism which its not. If you want the facts on the subject go here Defense industry daily

[mcsquared]

The problem isn't Bush it is the middle management of the government. In the Military you have guys making decisions who have never even seen Iraq let alone know what the hell to do there.

I think the point is that by being president Bush is the decider. And everything that happens under his watch is his responsibility

Although, I wonder who wrote that editorial. Perhaps somebody with a vested interest in making these super expensive vehicles? That is exactly the angle I would take if I worked for Hummer and had a yacht payment to make.

[AKPogue]

Fuck. with all of the $$$,000,000,000,000s going over and the IED problem being 2 years old you would think that they would be all over buying whatever armor would help lessen casualties, regardless of the cost.

Edit - with all due respect to you, AKPogue, where is this hostility towards people who want fewer casualties coming from? If Bush were as concerned as it seems to me he should be about protecting the troops, then he would be riding herd on these mid-level bureaucrats to buy the MRAPs, no?

War will have casualties!! You heard of the quote "For those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it". If you look at history, over and over again people make Armor that tries to defend against everything. Well it is much cheaper to defeat armor than it is to build armor. The biggest problem is tactics not Armor. There will always be something better out there. Why didn't the article say where the Explosively formed projectile technology came from?

This war is about wills not about killing or preventing killing. This war is being waged in the news over here and we have pretty much lost the information War. Same thing in Vietnam. Hopefully the Iraqi's have enough time before next years elections to get there shit together. It is exactly this kind of article and reaction that Al Qaeda is counting on. Al Qaeda started all this because they know that this country has turned into a bunch of pussies and can't take a few casualties.

Now as far as Bush pushing the mid level bureaucrats. He did have someone that pushed them. Rumsfield. Back when that National Guard guy asked Rumsfield about why they don't have uparmor humvess. He gave his answer but only a certain quote came out that vilified him in the press. Why do you think Rumsfield had that open meeting? Because he and everyone at the top are so far removed from everything they really have no idea what is going on because mid level management will never make themselves look bad.

If you are looking for a simple answer that is about it. Cause it goes way more than that and a change of a President won't change things at all.

[PNWbrit]

Al Qaeda started all this

Ladies and Gentleman please give a big round of applause for one of the few remaining people on the planet who still believes the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with preventing terrorism.

[BLOOD SWEAT STEEL]

Who could have possibly predicted yet another brilliant op/ed cut & paste by Natty Dread?

[Free Range Lobster]

Al Qaeda started all this

Go away.

[DBdude]

Since you guys know all about the military why don't you give me an education on how the system works. You get some stupid fucking article that doesn't say shit about anything!!! Why don't you just shut the fuck up!! The problem isn't Bush it is the middle management of the government. In the Military you have guys making decisions who have never even seen Iraq let alone know what the hell to do there. I could go on and on about this but Fuck it. Keep your bitching and I am really interested to see where this leads us. In the middle of reading the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and there are some interesting parallels.

fucking spare me, if this war was so important taxes would be increased(i.e what happened in WWII), , rationing would be in affect (i.e what happened in WWII), and there would be a draft(i.e what happened in WWII), . If this war was so important no expense or effort would be spared (i.e what happened in WWII). This is just another exercise in American Imperialisim. You folks at home don't worry about anything, don't sacrifice, and heavens, please don't ask any inconvenient questions. Just go about your business and let the Great Decider take care of business. Nothing to be alarmed about, just move along...

[AKPogue]

Ladies and Gentleman please give a big round of applause for one of the few remaining people on the planet who still believes the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with preventing terrorism.

I will let you in on a secret but promise not to tell anyone!!! When I was in Iraq my whole mission was to guard George Bush Oil Co infrastructure. Got to see some of the companies financial reports and you should see the billions of dollars that they got stashed in Swiss banks accounts. Pretty good scam I tell you. Please don't tell anyone!!!!

I am done here have fun!!

[natty dread]

Who could have possibly predicted yet another brilliant op/ed cut & paste by Natty Dread?

Thanks for the bump BSS!

just shut the fuck up!!

Umm, no.

War will have casualties!!

Sure, but shouldn't we try to minimize them as much as possible, rather than rushing into a war of choice with "the army we have." Bush is the Commander in Chief. If the troops don't have the best possible armor, it's HIS FAULT. He needs to making it happen, especially with all his rhetoric about listening to the commanders on the ground. Oh yeah, guess that didn't apply to Shinseki and his estimate of the need for 400K soldiers to secure the country--Rummy and Wolfie knew better than the general in that case--but whatever.

Al Qaeda started all this

Wow.

[L7]

Since you guys know all about the military why don't you give me an education on how the system works. You get some stupid fucking article that doesn't say shit about anything!!! Why don't you just shut the fuck up!! The problem isn't Bush it is the middle management of the government.

Pretty clear that military middle management wouldn't have the opportunity to make bad decisions if Bush hadn't spread lies to get the country involved in the first place. I realize you were over there but telling people you disagree with to STFU doesn't change anything. Not like your military internal view is at all biased or anything. The problem is maybe the whole shit show wouldn't have occured if it weren't for people yelling STFU BEFORE going there everytime someone disagreed. Didn't exactly create an atmosphere of thoughtfull planning and strategizing.

No WMDs and no proven connection to 9/11. Now as a result of focus on Iraq Afghanistan is sinking further into Taliban control so gains there are also being lost due to Bush's bullshit over Iraq. Who cares why he really went point is it was not for the reasons he claimed.

The amazing thing is people who in the face of overwhelming evidence that the war was a bad idea all along just yell louder that they were right. Fucking morons will get everyone killed.

[The AD]

I think the point is that by being president Bush is the decider. And everything that happens under his watch is his responsibility

Exactly. I guess the age of Harry Truman's "The buck stops here" are long gone.

Yeah, we all know military appropriations are just another bureaucratic morass, but that doesn't mean everyone should just accept it when American lives are at stake.

[rotorhead]

Those of us in the military are always going to get a bit touchy about these things. We know of the problems, the shortages of equipment, proper training, etc. We live it and do our best to work around it. This isn't new, in Bosnia (five million unacounted for mines) during the Clinton administration we had sand bags in the floor of our HUMVEES. I had to sign a waiver to fly acknowledging the fact that my engines where prone to failure, but we can't afford to fix them. If we had everthing we want in the miitary our peacetime budget would be astronomical.
I guess what I'm saying is give AKpoque and the rest of us a break if we defend an unpopular side on this. Nobody likes to hear how fucked up somthing you've dedicated your life to. Believe me I could tell you about many more issues than the Up armored Hummers.
The administration is at fault for much of this, but alot of the stuff we don't have now was brought up long before he was in office. Armored vehicles started coming up in 96.

[summit]

Who could have possibly predicted yet another brilliant op/ed cut & paste by Natty Dread?

i'm shocked... SHOCKED

Oh yeah, guess that didn't apply to Shinseki and his estimate of the need for 400K soldiers to secure the country--Rummy and Wolfie knew better than the general in that case

and so they got rid of him

[stupendous man]

So, AK pogue and Rotorhead,

In all seriousness, what do you think about just pulling the plug on this whole mess? I would like some active military perspective.

[rotorhead]

Don't see how this can end on a good note. Cut our losses and offer any civilian aid they will take in order to hopefully have something that rsembles peace. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm thinking with or without us there it's going to get much worse before it gets better.

[Buzzworthy]

Those of us in the military are always going to get a bit touchy about these things.

I guess what I'm saying is give AKpoque and the rest of us a break if we defend an unpopular side on this. Nobody likes to hear how fucked up somthing you've dedicated your life to.

Rotor and AKP,

At least for me, I don't think like you guys. You are soldiers and took that way of life. This is something I can't grasp personally. But that does not mean we are hating on YOU at all.

My buddy Shalee is now heading over there again. It really sucks when it gets personal.


As for Bush and his own damn agenda,

[AKPogue]

So, AK pogue and Rotorhead,

In all seriousness, what do you think about just pulling the plug on this whole mess? I would like some active military perspective.

I think it would be big mistake. Not too many people here are going to agree with me but it took around 10 years for the Vietnamese Army and government to get on there feet. By the time they got on their feet we pulled out all the funding for the Vietnamese Military and they crumbled because they had no ammo or spare parts. The Marine Corps thinks that the War on Terrorism is a twenty year war but I am afraid that we won't have much of a choice in that matter. Yeah we can pull out but they WILL follow us. Hell they are already here as demonstrated by that bust of terrorists a little while ago.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm thinking with or without us there it's going to get much worse before it gets better.

I think you are right. With all the talk of pulling out the terrorists morale is gotta be going up. If I was them I would be planning a lot of attacks next summer to influence the elections. If I would be able to bet on this I would put some serious money on it.

[Tuckerman]

No WMDs

Oh Rly?........................

Document Details WMD Recovered In Iraq, Santorum Says
By Melanie Hunter
CNSNews.com Senior Editor
June 21, 2006

(CNSNews.com) - Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) and Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.) announced Wednesday the discovery of more than 500 munitions or weapons of mass destruction, specifically "sarin- and mustard-filled projectiles," in Iraq.

Reading from unclassified portions of a document developed by the U.S. intelligence community, Santorum said, "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."

According to Santorum, "That means in addition to the 500, there are filled and unfilled munitions still believed to exist within the country."

Reading from the document, Santorum added, "Pre-Gulf War Iraqi chemical weapons could be sold on the Black Market. Use of these weapons by terrorist or insurgent groups would have implications for coalition forces in Iraq. The possibility of use outside of Iraq cannot be ruled out. The most likely munitions remaining are sarin- and mustard-filled projectiles. And I underscore filled."

Santorum said the "purity of the agents inside the munitions depends on many factors, including the manufacturing process, potential additives and environmental storage conditions."

While acknowledging that the agents "degrade over time," the document said that the chemicals "remain hazardous and potentially lethal."

The media has reported that "insurgents and Iraqi groups" want to "acquire and use chemical weapons," Santorum noted.

The Pennsylvania senator called the finding "incredibly" significant.

"The idea that, as my colleagues have repeatedly said in this debate on the other side of the aisle, that there are no weapons of mass destruction is in fact false," Santorum said. "We have found over 500 weapons of mass destruction and in fact have found that there are additional chemical weapons still in the country."

[Hutch]

quoting Santorum is really fucking persuasive.

[Free Range Lobster]

Yeah we can pull out but they WILL follow us. Hell they are already here as demonstrated by that bust of terrorists a little while ago.

Follow us?





Are you living in a bubble?