It runs in the family

**MTT** · 05-13-2007, 08:18 PM

Title is really fucked up.

As for the citizen stopping to assist a police officer (Or anyone) who was being murdered by a crazy drunk. That took allot of sac! I wish there were more citizens like him. I hope I never have to pass that test.

As to shooting the killer? Where was the drunk guy who just killed a cop going to go next if he were allowed to drive away?

Who knows how many lives were saved by confronting him out on the road?

**StuntCok** · 05-13-2007, 08:24 PM

I think the parties involved could have learned from the Dukes of Hazzard. A long running feud between law officers and hillbilly mountain folk does not have to end in tragedy.

**summit** · 05-13-2007, 08:28 PM

Yea the thread title is screwed...

Originally Posted by Cliff Huckable

Do I really want to live in a society where nobody will attempt to stop a crime they see in progress?
I WANT to live in a society in which people will, using common sense as to the danger to themselves and others, attempt to stop a crime in progress.

Do I really want to live in a society where nobody will come to the aid of a fallen law enforcement officer?
I WANT to live in a society in which people will come to the aid of a fallen law enforcement officer.

Do I really want to live in a society in which people think "coming to the aid of a fallen law enforcement officer" means grabbing his gun and killing someone?
No. To me "aiding" does not mean substituting yourself for the fallen law enforcement officer, it means summoning help. And it does not mean that if your son is summoning help you can substitute yourself for the fallen law enforcement officer.

So your position is that if some creep is raping the 10 year old in the alley, you will call the cops and let him keep raping her because it "isn't your place" to "play policeman." That is what your line of thinking advocates.

If you saw a murder running over a cop he just shot... and you called for help... and the murder had his gun... you would have curled up in a ball and waited for someone else to save you? You'd best remember that it is always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. The authorities think that the guy acted properly. So what is your major malfunction?

Your position is one of cowardice. You want us to be sheep and bleat when we are in trouble. OK... here is a whistle...

if you get in trouble the sheepdogs will come running. It is not what this society or our laws demand of you. It is a cowardice you choose for yourself. Do not push it upon others and villanize those with the courage to do what is right... people like the man and his son.

Here's the rest of the citizen's arrest outline.
I don't see anything there that OK's the use of deadly force.

It doesn't have to say anything about deadly force. Self-defense is self-defense. Deadly force may always be used when you fear for your life or the lives of others.

Crazy murderer... YOU SAW HIM MURDER... is standing over you and your son and he has a DEADLY WEAPON and he won't give it up. You may use any means necessary to defend you and yours unless he is running away from you and you don't think he will reengage.

Guy and his son deserve a medal.

**Dexter Rutecki** · 05-13-2007, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Trackhead

So you're no different than the racist down the street you so despise, generalizing all cops. Guess what, when I was 16, I got robbed at gunpoint by two non-caucasion folks. It wasn't a very pleasant experience. Do I now hold a grudge against all of that ethinicity? Hell no! See, I'm smarter than that. Apparently you are not.

Keep the hypocrisy flowing strong.

If you're really too dense to understand the difference, then there's probably no point in posting again--and I've never said all cops are bad, but they do tend to break the law and cover each other's asses (nearly always, and that's not just my opinion) for the crimes they commit. I just wanted to respond to your initial 'fuck you' to the 'cop haters', and point out there's more than ample reason to be suspicious of what the police do.
The difference between this and a cop killing a civilian is that usually when a cop kills a civilian we get some bullshit story justifying how it happened, and nobody reacts with the self-righteous outrage you exhibited (instead it's always, 'well, the guy had it coming').

And ice was correct, from the story I just heard--this was a long running feud between the two (cop and cousin).
Lotta weird shit related to Bode's family this year.

**Dexter Rutecki** · 05-13-2007, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Summit

It doesn't have to say anything about deadly force. Self-defense is self-defense.

Crazy murderer... YOU SAW HIM MURDER... is standing over you and your son and he has a DEADLY WEAPON and he won't give it up. You may use any means necessary to defend you and yours unless he is running away from you and you don't think he will reengage.

Let's keep the bullshit to a minimum, if that's still possible. The guy was in his car with his kid, and got out and tried to get Miller's cousin to drop the weapon. Then he grabbed the cop's gun to shoot the cousin. From everything I've heard, he was never threatened until he decided to go after the cousin, if he was threatened at all. Saying the crazy murderer was 'standing over' the guy and his son is a bit of hyperbole when you consider this guy went out of his way to confront crazy gun-wielding maniac.
Not saying the guy was right or wrong, but let's not fictionalize what happened.

**MTT** · 05-13-2007, 08:47 PM

Of interest, I justed watched a story on CNN where this car jacker guy beats a 92 year old man sensless and takes his car. Several people stand 30 feet away and watch. They did nothing to help.

Nice world we live in these days

**summit** · 05-13-2007, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Saying the crazy murderer was 'standing over' the guy and his son is a bit of hyperbole when you consider this guy went out of his way to confront crazy gun-wielding maniac.

Did he get out to confront him for the sake of bringing him to justice? (citizens arrest)

Or did he get out to get help for the cop and see if he could help the cop from receiving further injury and in the course of trying to render aid the police officer he had to confront "crazy gun-wielding maniac" drunk guy, (self-defense/defense of others)?

I'm pretty sure it was that latter...

Afterall, he didn't know the cop was dead when he stopped to HELP, and he didn't tell the perp that he was under arrest, he told the perp to drop the gun. Legitimate defensive shooting. Unless someone expects us to believe that the man and his son should feel safe with a armed and dangerous drunk psycho murderer standing there while they try to help his victim...

If the perp had dropped the gun or even just taken off running, he likely would not have been shot. If he had been shot running away, that would turn this from a "good shoot" into a questionable one.

**StuntCok** · 05-13-2007, 08:48 PM

Oh, and agreed on the shitness of the title of this thread. This is taking bode bashing way to far. Bode is just a great skier with a bit of a drinking issue who talks a lot of shit. It sounds like he would be the perfect maggot, to me.

**summit** · 05-13-2007, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by MTT

Of interest, I justed watched a story on CNN where this car jacker guy beats a 92 year old man sensless and takes his car. Several people stand 30 feet away and watch. They did nothing to help.

Nice world we live in these days

I bet one of those people was named Cliff Huckable

**TJ.Brk** · 05-13-2007, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

If you're really too dense to understand the difference, then there's probably no point in posting again--and I've never said all cops are bad, but they do tend to break the law and cover each other's asses (nearly always, and that's not just my opinion) for the crimes they commit. I just wanted to respond to your initial 'fuck you' to the 'cop haters', and point out there's more than ample reason to be suspicious of what the police do.
The difference between this and a cop killing a civilian is that usually when a cop kills a civilian we get some bullshit story justifying how it happened, and nobody reacts with the self-righteous outrage you exhibited (instead it's always, 'well, the guy had it coming').

And ice was correct, from the story I just heard--this was a long running feud between the two (cop and cousin).
Lotta weird shit related to Bode's family this year.

Dex. I have a Sister in Law that works for the MAN=Multi Area Narcotics unit. Man men and women I served with in both the Army and Marines became police officers later on.

Your opinion of police officers just blows my mind. Really it does

**jfost** · 05-13-2007, 08:52 PM

that guy is a f&*%$g tool for putting himself and his son in danger. He should be investigated by CPS - not given a medal. He is VERY lucky it turned out without his son being shot by the "crazed murderer"

and, coward or not - I don't care, I would sure as hell not stop to confront the murderer, I would remove myself and my family to a safe distance and alert more authorities. Not my j-o-b to shoot others, and REALLY not my job to decide right there and then who is worthy of living and who should die.

again, end result in this case seems to have worked out, but that is just pure luck!

**summit** · 05-13-2007, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by jfost

He should be investigated by CPS - not given a medal.

How old was his son?

**TJ.Brk** · 05-13-2007, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by jfost

that guy is a f&*%$g tool for putting himself and his son in danger. He should be investigated by CPS - not given a medal. He is VERY lucky it turned out without his son being shot by the "crazed murderer"

and, coward or not - I don't care, I would sure as hell not stop to confront the murderer, I would remove myself and my family to a safe distance and alert more authorities. Not my j-o-b to shoot others, and REALLY not my job to decide right there and then who is worthy of living and who should die.

again, end result in this case seems to have worked out, but that is just pure luck!

See summits post. You would fit right in

**Dexter Rutecki** · 05-13-2007, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Summit

Did he get out to confront him for the sake of bringing him to justice? (citizens arrest)

Or did he get out to get help for the cop and see if he could help the cop from receiving further injury and in the course of trying to render aid the police officer he had to confront "crazy gun-wielding maniac" drunk guy, (self-defense/defense of others)?

I'm pretty sure it was that latter...

I'm really not sure, and neither are you, but casting it as self-defense when he could have driven away, presumably (and kept his kid out of harm's way, which would seem to be reasonable or even preferable with bullets flying around) without any problem is a bit different than the scenario you seem to have envisioned.
And given that the cop was shot and run over already, I'm not sure this guy's on scene first aid could've been more help than a 911 call (before he started playing Dirty Harry).

**Trackhead** · 05-13-2007, 08:59 PM

So Dex, you still feeling warm and fuzzy inside about a dead cop? One less cocksucker to bother and harass you? Your family must be alot safer too, with another dead cop.

Feud or no feud between cop and civilian, the guy still gunned him down, and proceeded in his violent manner by running the dead cop over. Wow, what a great guy. Let's give him a BIG HUG and see if he rehabs.

Maybe the next DUI tirading, gun toting freak will cross your path. Watcha gonna do? Give 'em a hug?

**jfost** · 05-13-2007, 09:01 PM

good point, I have no idea of the age of the son...

I am thankful for people like Summit & TJ who are willing to trade their or their families lives for others. I am not at this point. That is why I do not work in Law Enforcement or the Military. I feel that I would take all reasonable precautions to assure my safety first - then provide whatever aid I can to the situation.

I have no training to adequately respond, and feel that the situation could be better handled by those who do. ESPECIALLY when gun-play is involved.

edit to add:

people should know that not all cops are automatically "right" and not all "criminals" are automatically wrong. The way our system is supposed to work should suss all that out, but when someone kills someone else, half of the story is gone forever...

**Dexter Rutecki** · 05-13-2007, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by TJ.Brk

Dex. I have a Sister in Law that works for the MAN=Multi Area Narcotics unit. Man men and women I served with in both the Army and Marines became police officers later on.

Your opinion of police officers just blows my mind. Really it does

You have any relatives who have been beaten by the police, more than once, because of where they were and who they were hanging around with (i.e. not white people)? Ever been victimized by cops yourself? You can ask Plakespeare about how much respect cops have for your rights.

Your naivete about cops blows my mind, as does the mindless cop boosterism of some people here.

**Trackhead** · 05-13-2007, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

And given that the cop was shot and run over already, I'm not sure this guy's on scene first aid could've been more help than a 911 call (before he started playing Dirty Harry).

Oh, you mean like potentially opening his airway with a jawthrust, perhaps keeping his airway clear. Putting him in trendelenburg in an attempt to keep a viable blood pressure. Putting direct pressure on bleeding wounds?

No, no help at all.

[Dex 911 call]"No hurry, he's already been shot and run over. Take your time. He's probably unviable. Plus, he's just another Pig."[/end call]

**Trackhead** · 05-13-2007, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Your naivete about cops blows my mind, as does the mindless cop boosterism of some people here.

More broad generalizations from the mouth of a hypocrite.

Keep 'em coming Dex.

**Dexter Rutecki** · 05-13-2007, 09:03 PM

Yeah, running over and grabbing the cop's gun to shoot the guy saved his life, right? While jeopardizing his son's life just so he could shoot the guy. I'm sure they guy was a trained EMT who had advanced life-support in his trunk.
Smart.

**summit** · 05-13-2007, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Trackhead

Oh, you mean like potentially opening his airway with a jawthrust, perhaps keeping his airway clear. Putting him in trendelenburg in an attempt to keep a viable blood pressure. Putting direct pressure on bleeding wounds?

No, no help at all.

Or stopping psycho dood from doing further violence...

**Trackhead** · 05-13-2007, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Yeah, running over and grabbing the cop's gun to shoot the guy saved his life, right? While jeopardizing his son's life just so he could shoot the guy. I'm sure they guy was a trained EMT who had advanced life-support in his trunk.
Smart.

Dex, some people have balls. You don't. So get over it.

Hey Dex, I've been robbed at GUNPOINT by an ethnicity not of my own. Do I harbor ill will towards all of that ethnicity? No.

So you're family got whooped by a cop? So now you are asserting your negative experience against all cops? Perhaps YOU are dense.

**Dexter Rutecki** · 05-13-2007, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Trackhead

More broad generalizations from the mouth of a hypocrite.

Keep 'em coming Dex.

Sure, I'm making it all up. Cops are great, they never beat up people for no reason, don't shoot unarmed people (51 times), and never lie.
Living in reality doesn't make me hypocritical.

**iceman** · 05-13-2007, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Trackhead

So Dex, you still feeling warm and fuzzy inside about a dead cop? One less cocksucker to bother and harass you? Your family must be alot safer too, with another dead cop.

Feud or no feud between cop and civilian, the guy still gunned him down, and proceeded in his violent manner by running the dead cop over. Wow, what a great guy. Let's give him a BIG HUG and see if he rehabs.

Maybe the next DUI tirading, gun toting freak will cross your path. Watcha gonna do? Give 'em a hug?

Honestly, you seem to have more anger issues than the average drunk I run into. Nobody's giving the cop-killer a medal here. And nobody's giving that cop one either. Clearly BOTH of them were to some degree at fault.

The other guy, who the fuck knows? Seems like it would've been smarter to get out of there with his kid and call the authorities, but we weren't there, there's nothing else to say at this point.

**Dexter Rutecki** · 05-13-2007, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Trackhead

Dex, some people have balls. You don't. So get over it.

Hey Dex, I've been robbed at GUNPOINT by an ethnicity not of my own. Do I harbor ill will towards all of that ethnicity? No.

So you're family got whooped by a cop? So now you are asserting your negative experience against all cops? Perhaps YOU are dense.

Fuck off. Whether you have balls or not, you're an idiot.

And you're a hero for not being a racist. Wow.
If you'd had balls then you would've shot the guy, right?