building code questions

[homi]

question: can a city code inspector make me tear up my roof?

story: having A/C installed. in the attic, there are no cross members across the roof joists and no metal joist hangers. I'll try to get some pics up. Apparently, this is not up to code. the initial agreement with the guy who's installing the a/c was for city inspection after the A/C is installed. He saying the city will have a problem with the attic joisting and that inspection may open up a can of worms.

questions;
1. how do I figure out what exactly *is* code. google and denver govt webpage only shows 'Amendments'.
2. what's the likelihood that the city might make me rip up the roof if that's not what they're called out to inspect?
3. If they don't think this is kosher, how likely would this be to trigger them to inspect the entire house for code violations?
4. is this something my inspector should have informed me of when I was buying the house?

[seanyob]

Hmmm.....it should have already been inspected while it was orginally built. If there were issues, it would have been brought up then. How long ago was the house built and when did you buy it?

Try a UBC (Uniform Building Code) search.

[irul&ublo]

The problem you may run into is that in a lot of jurisdictions, when you do a major add on, you subject the property to updated codes, and depending on how old the structure is, they could change significantly.


And the answer to #4 is yes; with the caveat that the agreements w/ house inspectors are usually wriitten so as to give them an easy out. Also, most of the ones I have run into are not contractors, so whether he/she would catch that is questionable.

[DJSapp]

Short answer: yes, they can make you do that.

Most places require any major addition to bring anything effected by it up to current codes. It will not open a can of worms to inspect everything else in the house as long as it was previously inspected, but adding an attic a/c would put the structure of the home from foundation to roof subject to inspection.

[Big E]

I think it would be worth actually calling the building department and talking to an inspector. Just to be safe, maybe you don't want to use your full name

Generally building codes state that pre-existing structures do not meet all of the current building requirements do not need to be updated to conform to current standards unless there is a compelling (ie, safety) reason to do so. If it met codes when it was built, you're probably okay. I say met codes, though, not passed inspection, as those aren't necessarily the same. I wouldn't think that adding A/C would be considered a major add-on, though. Are they making structural modifications as part of the work? If not, then they'd normally only be looking at the A/C stuff.

I would tend to agree w/ irul on #4 - I don't have much good to say about the home inspections that you get when you buy a house. The guts of the house are all covered up, and without seeing that there's not much left to inspect, save for the glaringly obvious. For example, I have never known home inspectors to take the cover off the electrical panel, but just doing that will tell you a ton about the likely condition of the rest of the electrics. Plugging in their $10 circuit tester is useful, but anyone can do that.

FYI, I just finished a couple rounds of building inspections on a basement remodel, and the county/utility inspectors have actually been extremely competent but pleasant as well. Having not gone through the whole permit/inspection cycle before and doing all the work myself, I was a little nervous going into the inspections, but it hasn't been a problem at all. Of course, doing the work right helps, too!

edit to say - agree w/ DJ if the A/C unit is actually getting installed in the attic - unusual for my neck of the woods, maybe not yours.

[ShawnB]

For the sub to put the AC in the attic, that area of the attic structure (i.e. ceiling structure, i.e. walkable surface) has to be able to take the new loads:

- It has to be able to take the new dead load (the weight of the new equipment)

- It has to be able to take the new live load (the variable weight of multiple dudes walking around up there to service the equipment).

The sub is probably telling you that your existing ceiling structure is not (by eye) up to snuff. I doubt he's talking about your roof, or your rafters, or the sheathing ply nailing sched., or any of that. Doubtless he's really just talking about your joists and where they bear, and more importantly, he's probably only talking about the structure being upgraded to bear the new loads in the area of the new load and in the walking path to that area.

That's what he's responsible for ascertaining the safety of, and (unless you act like a freak in some way) that's the only thing that he and the inspector are going to care about being buffed up. And unless you've got some crazy balloon framing where the attic deck does NOT bear directly on the walls below, then it's fairly irrelevant that your joist connections are not connected to the rim joist w/ hangers. As long as the joists are actually sitting on the wall plate (hopefully plates) below, you're mostly there.

They're not going to make you tear your house down. They are going to make you:

A) sister on some more realistic joists for the span in question, in an area several feet in all directions from the new unit (bearing only on walls supported by footings), and in a path between the new unit and the access point to the attic;

B) nail in some blocking at the ends of these joists, along those wall plates;

C) top all that with 3/4" T&G plywood, nailed off to the joists below.

D) They may make you add some strapping and ties between some of the existing structural elements, but unless the inspector's a real prick, he'll poke his head up there (if it looks dirty he won't go all the way up), he'll tell you what straps he wants, and where, and you say absolutelyyoubetchawilldosir and he goes away and the whole thing takes up your weekend and you do it and he comes back and he's pleased as punch.

It's not the end of the world: Your sub's only supposed to install a new unit where the structure can take it, and he's gonna get bopped if he tries otherwise. Likewise, inspector doesn't want to make you tear down your house, he just wants to make sure the new shit + surly maintenance guys don't come crashing down on someone's head if you throw it all up there. Meet with him at the building dept., and be smiley, and with a measured sketch of your layout ask him "well what would you like to see up there before you come out?" This is minor-league stuff; as long as you're being deferential he'll probably grab your pencil and spec the whole thing out right there, in the simplest way possible.

I know this is sight unseen and all, and your mileage may vary, but unless this is one wacky hippie palace your walls can take it; your foundation can take it; your actual roof is not involved. You just gotta firm up that ceiling diaphragm, and only in a limited area, and that's likely the end of that. It'll be cool...it'll be cool.

Um. Probably, that is.

Good luck.

[Rideski]

If you're adding a AC into your existing forced air furnace, they will look at:
Electric circuit breakers box and incoming feeds
Furnace it taps into
Structure

If they see anything else way out of line like electrical conduit in your front room hanging out with no structure they can say whatever they want about it. If you have a wall about to fall down, they can say whatever about it.

The permit is for two things. Making the city money, and insuring your safety and that of the person you sell the house to. The second part is great. You don't want an AC falling on your head. You don't want a fried panel starting your house on fire.

BUTT they will be total ASSES about not accepting it the first time. They will usually come back. (IME)

Get a second opinion from a dif HVAC company as to what improvements would be needed. If you have directional 2x6 joists made out of old school Oak you may not need the metal hangars. Don't fuck around with the electric, get it done right.

[homi]

Hmmm.....it should have already been inspected while it was orginally built. If there were issues, it would have been brought up then. How long ago was the house built and when did you buy it?

I don't know how thoroughly the city went through the place (if at all) after it was built. the house is a renovation of a 1950s bungalow with additiion of a breezeway and two story part on the other end of the breezeway. It was completed in 2001, and we bought it in 2004. The guy who built it was planning on living in it, and there were alot of things left kindof 'half-done'. It's a pretty artsy place, but also quirky to work on

I'll grab a hardcopy of the UBC. doesn't seem to be any copies online...

Generally building codes state that pre-existing structures ... do not need to be updated to conform to current standards unless there is a compelling (ie, safety) reason to do so. If it met codes when it was built, you're probably okay.

congrats on your remodel
looks grossly pretty sturdy up there. here's some pics of the joisting

For the sub to put the AC in the attic, that area of the attic structure (i.e. ceiling structure, i.e. walkable surface) has to be able to take the new loads:
...
As long as the joists are actually sitting on the wall plate (hopefully plates) below, you're mostly there.

the unit is sitting on a burly-looking 2x12 of some hardwood variety. (it's at the bottom of the last pic)

most of the ceilings are vaulted. this little attic space is 'semi' vaulted, the attic floor sits above where the roof meets the wall. so it doesn't look (to me) that the horizontal attic floor joists meet the wall

...Don't fuck around with the electric, get it done right.

so they ran the electric for the ac off the sub panel. (old part of house has 200a panel, there's a 100a sub in the new part, and they ran a 60a sub-sub off the 100a)
any problems you can think of with that?

A few more questions on inspections.
1. the way I understand it, when a house is built, it's inspected. If it passes, the city only comes back in only if there's a major renovation. So if the city never finds out about renovations, a house might go many years without being inspected. So in a sense, an inspection is 'optional', not accounting for obvious safety or resale issues. Is this the way it works?
2. I built this deck in our courtyard. didn't pull a permit, but followed joist spacing/anchor/stair code (best I could tell). It's a few years old and no issues

If they come to inspect the AC, can they say 'what's up with that deck?' and make me do some kind of retroactive permit process?

thanks for all the info, once again, the collective delivers...

[altagirl]

For example, I have never known home inspectors to take the cover off the electrical panel, but just doing that will tell you a ton about the likely condition of the rest of the electrics. Plugging in their $10 circuit tester is useful, but anyone can do that.

Dude, you need a better home inspector. I've never had one that didn't check inside the electrical panels. Plus the one I've been using lately also has an infrared camera that shows any drafts, wet spots under the carpet or in the ceiling, how far the wall joists are apart, etc.

[habituallybored]

I think it would be worth actually calling the building department and talking to an inspector. Just to be safe, maybe you don't want to use your full name

I agree with Big E. My brother and dad recently finished a basement themselves and had good luck taking a proactive approach with the inspectors. The inspectors were helpful and friendly(although they did have to make small changes to how they ran the electrical).

Like anything, though, I'm sure it varies from city to city and inspector to inspector. I'd say there is a better chance you'll get help since you are doing this renovation to your own home and actually care versus trying to quick flip a property to put back on the market.