The Official Gun Control Debate thread

[Spats]

1) To claim that because criminals have obtained guns illegally means that gun laws have no effect makes no sense at all. Gun laws as enforced can make illegal gun purchases more difficult, more expensive, and more risky.

We're spending over $19 billion a year on drug interdiction in this country, yet drugs are still easily available. Let's say we spend just as much on gun interdiction...it'll be just as ineffective. All the criminals would still have guns, just like they all still sell drugs.

Think about it: criminals get their money by selling drugs. This means they're already smuggling tons of illegal materials into the country. How hard is it to put some guns in with the coca?

2) You never address the issue of if the following statement is true, why do all the countries with less "gun rights" also have much lower rates of murder and violent crime? If the following statement were true, the US would not have murder rates 2 or 3 times higher than countries with less "gun rights".

How about the countries with more gun rights? Switzerland, for example, where the crime rate is vanishingly low? You have no point left to argue, so I won't.

[jerr]

I haven't read this thread and have no vested interest in the result as I live in New Zealand but I've got a unique point of view that may shed a different light on things.

In NZ the only guns are hunting rifles/shot guns (pretty much) and really only live in the country. NZ's heavily licenced and regulated.

Automatic anything and hand guns are illegal. Security guards don't wear hand guns. The NZ police don't even wear guns.

I find the idea of anybody having a method of killing me instantly with nothing more profound or analytical than the twitch of a finger unfathomable.

There's obviously a lot more to this debate in America and I'm totally outside it but I can say with almost total certainty - I'm never going to get shot in NZ and the lack of available guns is definitely a factor

[DamRepublican]

Clearly, you are not a VaTECH English major. Did you learn how to write like that at that bastion of higher ed in Bozeman?

I'm an engineering major who has no brain left when I quit doing homework (read when I quit it never really ends) so when i write shit my brain doesnt say man I am writing this for a retarded english class

B.T.W., I don't want to be the one crouched in a corner with my family while a burgular holds a gun to my head and I can say nothing but "you're not allowed to have a gun, they are ILLEGAL." Give me a break, it's called black market, and it's bigger than anyone can estimate.

[natty dread]

April 21, 2007
Armed Miss America 1944 Stops Intruder
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 1:50 a.m. ET

WAYNESBURG, Ky. (AP) -- Miss America 1944 has a talent that likely has never appeared on a beauty pageant stage: She fired a handgun to shoot out a vehicle's tires and stop an intruder. Venus Ramey, 82, confronted a man on her farm in south-central Kentucky last week after she saw her dog run into a storage building where thieves had previously made off with old farm equipment.

Ramey said the man told her he would leave. ''I said, 'Oh, no you won't,' and I shot their tires so they couldn't leave,'' Ramey said.

She had to balance on her walker as she pulled out a snub-nosed .38-caliber handgun.

''I didn't even think twice. I just went and did it,'' she said. ''If they'd even dared come close to me, they'd be 6 feet under by now.''

Ramey then flagged down a passing motorist, who called 911.

Curtis Parrish of Ohio was charged with misdemeanor trespassing, Deputy Dan Gilliam said. The man's hometown wasn't immediately available. Three other people were questioned but were not arrested.

After winning the pageant with her singing, dancing and comedic talents, Ramey sold war bonds and her picture was adorned on a B-17 that made missions over Germany in World War II, according to the Miss America Web site.

Ramey lived in Cincinnati for several years and was instrumental in helping rejuvenate Over-the-Rhine historic buildings. She returned to Kentucky in 1990 to live on her farm.

''I'm trying to live a quiet, peaceful life and stay out of trouble, and all it is, is one thing after another,'' she said.

[truckeelocal]

April 21, 2007
Armed Miss America 1944 Stops Intruder

I was just about to post the same story. To me it demonstrates just how crazy gun culture is this days. We glorify some women for using her gun to protect personal property. How easy would it have been for her to be disarmed, or even worse confronted by an armed intruder ? Meanwhile she's wobbling down the middle of the street, another vehicle statistic waiting to happen. There's so much wrong here which others would perceive as right
I'm trying to live a quiet, peaceful life and stay out of trouble as is her snub-nosed .38-caliber handgun

[Jer]

I was just about to post the same story. To me it demonstrates just how crazy gun culture is this days. We glorify some women for using her gun to protect personal property. How easy would it have been for her to be disarmed, or even worse confronted by an armed intruder ? Meanwhile she's wobbling down the middle of the street, another vehicle statistic waiting to happen. There's so much wrong here which others would perceive as right
I'm trying to live a quiet, peaceful life and stay out of trouble as is her snub-nosed .38-caliber handgun

Yabut - what if? What if??! WHAT IF??!!! WHAT IF ???!!!!!WHAT IF???!!!!!!

[truckeelocal]

Yabut - what if? What if??! WHAT IF??!!! WHAT IF ???!!!!!WHAT IF???!!!!!!

First. I should note you have me on ignore.
Second. Threatening someone's life with a gun is not a proportional response to a property crime. Let his tires down, call the police, get the hell away.

[Jer]

First. I should note you have me on ignore.
.

Sorry, I took you off ignore when I deleted my avatar and personal info. But what if I put you back on? What if? What if??!!! WHAT IF??!!! WHAT IF??!!!!!

[truckeelocal]

Sorry, I took you off ignore when I deleted my avatar and personal info. But what if I put you back on? What if? What if??!!! WHAT IF??!!! WHAT IF??!!!!!

Go on. Do it. I dare you. I DOUBLE DARE YOU !!!

[mr_gyptian]

How do you feel about countries like Sweden, Canada, France, England, Japan, etc, etc, etc, where almost no one carries guns?

Just out of interest, and I understand if you don't want to talk about it, but did your dad fire the gun? Sounds like a nightmare situation.

"AS FOR THE European disdain for our criminal culture, many of those countries should not spend too much time congratulating themselves. In 2000, the rate at which people were robbed or assaulted was higher in England, Scotland, Finland, Poland, Denmark and Sweden than it was in the United States. The assault rate in England was twice that in the United States. In the decade since England banned all private possession of handguns, the BBC reported that the number of gun crimes has gone up sharply.

Some of the worst examples of mass gun violence have also occurred in Europe. In recent years, 17 students and teachers were killed by a shooter in one incident at a German public school; 14 legislators were shot to death in Switzerland, and eight city council members were shot to death near Paris. "

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...opinion-center

I guess I'd start here.

[brice618]

I was just about to post the same story. To me it demonstrates just how crazy gun culture is this days. We glorify some women for using her gun to protect personal property. How easy would it have been for her to be disarmed, or even worse confronted by an armed intruder ? Meanwhile she's wobbling down the middle of the street, another vehicle statistic waiting to happen. There's so much wrong here which others would perceive as right
I'm trying to live a quiet, peaceful life and stay out of trouble as is her snub-nosed .38-caliber handgun

Ugh... Seriously? You're admonishing an old woman for protecting her things? This is ridiculous! Wow... I don't really know how you can say its wrong for her to do what she did. ITS HER STUFF! That gun is the only thing she has to defend/ protect herself and her property. She probably doesn't have sweet ninja skillz and obviously she's been taken advantage of before. Without that gun do you think those guys are going to stop? Whats keeping them from harming her??? YOU are whats wrong with this country!

Edit:

The moment those guys decide her stuff is free for the taking her .38 becomes their problem.

[Dipshit Liberal]

The LA Times - yeah like they're not a completely biased neocon rag.

OUTLAW ALL GUNS - LEGALIZE POT!

[72Twenty]

fucking hippie.

[brice618]

these are the people who want to ban guns...



TUCKER: "Do you actually know what a barrel shroud is"?
MCCARTHY: "No I don't actually know what it is. . . "
TUCKER: "Oh, because it's in your legislation."
MCCARTHY: ". . . I believe it's a shoulder thing that goes up."
TUCKER: "No. . . it isn't."

the ignorance is disgusting.

[Jer]

the ignorance is disgusting.

It's not important that they actually know what the hell they're talking about. What's important is that they feel like they're actually doing something so they can get a nice warm feeling. I mean - how many of the naysayers here actually know what words like "semi-auto", "assault rifle" and "magazine" mean? What's really important is that all guns go away so tomorrow the rivers can begin running chocolate.

[MeatPuppet]

How do you feel about countries like Sweden, Canada, France, England, Japan, etc, etc, etc, where almost no one carries guns?

Those are different cultures. Just because a law has a certain effect on society in one of the countries you mentioned, doesn't mean that it will produce the same effect in America(or vice versa). It might, or it might not. Everything has to be taken on a case by case basis. In this case, our culture being what it is, I don't believe passing restrictive gun laws will make us safer.

There isn't one set of societal rules that would apply equally well, and produce the same results, for all of humanity. That's kind of the point of drawing boarders. The people within those borders get to live in the manner they prefer, according to their values.

Just out of interest, and I understand if you don't want to talk about it, but did your dad fire the gun? Sounds like a nightmare situation.

I don't mind talking about it. At the time, it barely made a blip on the radar of my childhood. It was only years later, after I was an adult that I remembered that night and, with the context of an adult, realized how badly it could have turned out if my dad hadn't had a gun with him.

We had just moved to Chicago. It was late at night, we got a flat tire and my dad took the first off ramp from the freeway. He was changing the tire and a car had driven by three times, each time slowing down as it passed and turning around at the end of the street and driving by again. The third time it turned around it pulled up behind us with it's bright lights on and just sat there. After a minute my dad got back in the car and told my mom to keep the kids down. He said there were four guys in the car behind us and they looked like they were arguing about something. My dad reached under the seat where he kept his gun and then got out of the car.

As he got out of the car I heard four car doors close behind us. I heard my dad tell them we didn't need any help. He was standing right by my window and I saw him drop into a forward weighted stance and raise his gun. I jumped up and looked over the back seat and saw one guy in front of the headlights with something in his hand. I found out later that it was a baseball bat. My mom barked at me to get down. The tone in her voice scared me, I had never heard it before. I turned around sat back down and I have this still image in my head of her with her hand in her purse. It seemed strange at the time because she didn't look like she was getting anything out of it. She just had her hand stuck in it. I know now, that she always carried a .38 revolver with her. So if anyone had made it to the car, they would have had her to deal with as well.

I saw my dad move away from our car, heard all four car doors close and the car backed to the end of the street and drove away. My dad finished changing the tire and we went home.

As an adult, talking to my dad about that night, he said that all four guys had something in their hand. They didn't say anything as they started walking toward us. After they started to head back to their car, my dad had walked out toward the middle of the street to get their headlights out of his eyes and to move our car out of their line of fire in case one of them had a gun and started shooting.

All a restrictive gun law would have done is strip my parents of the ability to protect their family. I know my experiences aren't typical. But I have seen first hand the benefits of the 2nd amendment. So all this academic hypothesizing about restrictive gun laws making us safer kind of rings hollow to my ears.


Edit: I might point out that this was never reported so it never got reflected in any statistics. Many, many times, this kind of DGU never gets reported.

[flowtron]

these are the people who want to ban guns...

the ignorance is disgusting.

Yeah. She doesn't know anything about gun violence.

[brice618]

she might know about VIOLENCE. but she obviously doesn't know much about guns. so how in hell is she qualified to say that people shouldn't have them?!

[flowtron]

she might know about VIOLENCE. but she obviously doesn't know much about guns. so how in hell is she qualified to say that people shouldn't have them?!

OK. Do a little research on her and get back to me.
In the mean time, consider this. What most of us "gun control freaks" want is just to make it harder to purchase guns. Deeper, more through backround checks, waiting periods, and maybe, just maybe a limit on assault weapons.
Why is that such a repulsive idea to some of you? If you are a mentally stable, upright citizen you have nothing to fear or lose, except maybe a few days shooting at cans and old refrigerators, when you want to blow holes in that shit TODAY.
We don't necessarily want to take your precious guns away, it might just take a little longer to purchase that shiny new one in the future. What is wrong with that?

[Jer]

Yeah. She doesn't know anything about gun violence.

Agreed. Anyone who can't figure out that a term that includes the word "barrel" has absolutely nothing to do with a "shoulder thing that goes up" (folding stock possibly?) has absolutely no place introducing legislation against certain firearms.

Glad you're finally coming around on this, flowtron.

[flowtron]

Agreed. Anyone who can't figure out that a term that includes the word "barrel" has absolutely nothing to do with a "shoulder thing that goes up" (folding stock possibly?) has absolutely no place introducing legislation against certain firearms.

Glad you're finally coming around on this, flowtron.

Maybe if her son and husband were shot with such a weapon she might have a better idea.

[MeatPuppet]

OK. Do a little research on her and get back to me.
In the mean time, consider this. What most of us "gun control freaks" want is ... and maybe, just maybe a limit on assault weapons.

Could you please name one "assault weapon" that is legal for the average American citizen to buy today? Just one, that's all I ask.

Why is that such a repulsive idea to some of you?

Because I don't trust people who want to ban/regulate something when they don't have any idea what they are banning/regulating. Like McCarthy...and you. It kind of suggests that you aren't sincere in what you say.

Why should I trust someone to regulate the world I live in, when they(and those who support them) are making sloppy, emotionally driven, arguments?

We don't necessarily want to take your precious guns away, it might just take a little longer to purchase that shiny new one in the future. What is wrong with that?

A reasoned, intellectual approach to this subject requires a base level of education. The sloppiness and ignorance on the part of the people leading the anti-gun movement(and their supporters) suggests that this base level of education doesn't exist. So, again, why should I trust someone to govern my world who is being driven by uneducated emotions rather than by the facts?

[Jer]

Maybe if her son and husband were shot with such a weapon she might have a better idea.

Ooohh - making wierd references to appeal to emotions. Such a valid arguement.

[flowtron]

Could you please name one "assault weapon" that is legal for the average American citizen to buy today? Just one, that's all I ask.




Because I don't trust people who want to ban/regulate something when they don't have any idea what they are banning/regulating. Like McCarthy...and you. It kind of suggests that you aren't sincere in what you say.

Why should I trust someone to regulate the world I live in, when they(and those who support them) are making sloppy, emotionally driven, arguments?



A reasoned, intellectual approach to this subject requires a base level of education. The sloppiness and ignorance on the part of the people leading the anti-gun movement(and their supporters) suggests that this base level of education doesn't exist. So, again, why should I trust someone to govern my world who is being driven by uneducated emotions rather than by the facts?

Sorry. I stopped looking a Guns n Ammo and Soldier of Fortune when I was about 15. I admit, my semantic understanding of gun lingo is a bit rusty, but I could link you to the wiki shit I just read about assault weapons and the sunsetted ban, but you're probably on top of that.
What is emotional about thinking that it should be harder to buy a firearm? They can be mortally dangerous in the wrong hands. That is significant.
Yes, there is a black market, but if we have the means to limit the legitimate market sale of firearms to people of confirmed sound mind and legal backround...WHERE IS THE HARM TO YOU?! please answer that.
Emotion free: The facts are that guns bought legitimately make their way into the black market through burglary. The facts are that the VT shooter should not have beeen able to buy guns from a gun shop. The facts are that if you are of sound mind, you'll still have a relatively easy time buying a gun even if more substanial regulations are put in place.
How many guns do you find it necessary to own?

[Jumper Bones]

How many guns do you find it necessary to own?

As many as I desire or want to afford or deal with the hassle of purchasing. They aren't cheap.