MONT BLANC DU TACUL - COULOIR JAGER

[jumpturn]

Whoa! That one is not in the guidebook because it is ABO, requires rappels and/or a helicopter!

I wonder if this means over 55º or just hanging stations on the raps.

Here's another video site with rad lines on it.

http://www.skitour.fr/video/

Check out the casual run down Le Couloir Nord/nord-est des Courtes. Yet, another "intermediate" D with 5.1 technical difficulty, danger 2, 48º/400m.

[greg]

another site some of you might enjoy is il y a du gaz..

edit: don't forget to crank up the volume..

[jumpturn]

yup, just what we're looking for!

I like the way they refer to "mixte" -- need a ski sponsor for those descents! I'll be thinking "un peu de mixte" next time I ski over a talus field.

Today, with these image-stabilized video-capable digital cameras, everyone can video their descent. With two skiers and two cameras, you leepfrog each other every 100m and shoot from each stopped position. The result is a full sequence of both skiers making the descent.

Then, we can tell where they were gripped, because of the missing sections.

[kailas]

Trackhead, was your friend Hans?

[Trackhead]

Trackhead, was your friend Hans?

Yes..............

[bbirtle]

Fil a Plumb is an ice climbing route, I don't think it's in the book because it has a lot of completely vertical thin ice pitches. I believe it's graded at D or TD.

Using the alpine F/PD/AD/D/TD/ED/ABO system isn't ideal, IMO, for these types of climbs... I think it's far more descriptive and beneficial to ignore the alpine grade and look at the simple details e.g. Gervesutti Couloir = "45-55 degrees, 1100m, no mixed", Fil a Plumb might be "Some pitches at 90 degrees (WI 4+), 600m, thin and mixed at M3" or whatever.

[A Random Skier]

Here's another video site with rad lines on it.

http://www.skitour.fr/video/

Good site. The two vids there on Mount Blanc are nice, especially the first one. Looks like a great line with a steep consistent pitch. Looks like an amazing mountain for some hardcore-steep chute skiing. On the hit list if I ever take a Euro trip.

[jumpturn]

Good site. The two vids there on Mount Blanc are nice, especially the first one. Looks like a great line with a steep consistent pitch.

Yes, but see Couloir Nord/nord-est des Courtes. Check out the descent and the mountain police report.

[jumpturn]

Here is a quick translation of the Anselme Baud rating scheme from his book Mont Blanc et Aguilles Rouges à Ski (aka, the Extreme Skiing Guide to Chamonix). His examples have been expanded some and linked to video when available.

* Indicates video of ski descent


Overall Alpine Rating

Given considerations of the technical level, the slope and the danger, Baud assigns an overall rating selected among the following:

F: Easy (easy)
PD: Moderate (little difficulty)
AD: More Difficult (somewhat difficult)
D: Hard (difficult)
TD: Very Hard (very difficult)
ED: Extreme (extremely difficult)
ABO: Abominal (insanely difficult)

These ratings can have plus or minus signs. Another clue is the recommended pack. When it includes two ice axes and crampons, you are into the high mountain pack. One axe is a notch down, and no axe is basic.

Technical Difficulty

Level 1: Slopes up to 30º, open forests, wide couloirs and snow fields with small descents (less than 800m) and low avalanche risk.
Examples: Pré du Rocher (Plan de l'Aguille), Arpille de la Ravoire, Bec à Bavon, col des Dards, lacs Jovet.

Level 2: Off-piste skiing on rounded reliefs and denser forests, sometimes difficult or hard snow, slopes up to 35º with larger descents (above 800m).
Examples: Aguillette des Houches (PD, 2.3, 1, 30-35º cruxes), col Infranchissable (PD, 2.3, 1, low), Vallée Blanche (PD, 2.3, 1, 35º crux).

Level 3: Ski alpinism, sufficient technique to control skiing in couloirs, slopes up to 40º, more committing descents on sustained slopes.
Examples: face nord de Mont Blanc de Tacul* (AD, 3.3, 2, 35-40º/400m), Traversée de Miage (AD, 3.1, 1, 35&#186, glacier d'Armancette (AD, 3.3, 2, 35º/200m).

Level 4: High angle slopes reaching 50º on short sections, narrow couloirs and difficult terrain, complex glacial terrain.
Examples: glacier Rond* (D, 4.2, 2, 45-50º/800m), glacier du Milieu* (D, 4.2, 2, 45º/250m), Face Nord de Mont Blanc (D, 4.2, 2, 45º crux with 30-35º/650m), couloir Spencer* (D, 4.3, 2, 45-50º/250m), Grand Jorasses Versant Sud (D+, 4.3, 3, 45-50º/200m).

Level 5: Extreme skiing, major descents (above 1000m) on couloirs and slopes exceeding 50º. The skier must combine mastery of technique and equipment with optimal mental preparation. Level 5 is open above and includes slopes greater than 55º, which are rarely in condition and only occasionally skiable.
Examples: couloir Gervasutti on the Tour Rond* (D+, 5.1, 2, 45-50º/200m), couloir nord/nord-est des Courtes* (D, 5.2, 2, 48º/400m), couloir Whymper* (TD+, 5.3, 3, 45-55º/550m), couloir Couturier* (TD, 5.4, 3 55º/300m), couloir Jager (TD+, 5.4, 3, 45-55/700m), couloir Cordier* (ED, 5.5, 3, 55-57º/300m).

Technical ratings look like 4.2 for the glacier Rond or 5.5 for the Voie des Autrichiens on the Courtes.

Slope Characteristics

Ratings need to be relativized to the conditions. It is useless to claim that the quality of snow will determine the real difficulty of the slope. An icy 35º slope is in effect more difficult to ski safely than a 40-45º slope covered with powder snow. Additionally, lighting on the slope is a supplementary factor that facilitates seeing the features and angle of the slope. Consequently, slopes in the shade and facing North are more difficult.

Even though the angle must be an essential ingredient of the rating, it needs to be weighed in conjunction with the length of the descent. So, the rating should indicate the overall angle, but include the length of higher angle sections (45º/250m). The angle of short sections high in a couloir (with little or much snow) or certain steep passages below can raise the rating. Thus, the average angle in the center of the couloir Gervasutti on the Tour Ronde or the South couloir of the col Armand Charet is 45º, but the sides which are actually skied easily reach 50º!

Danger

Danger 1: Little chance of a slide after a fall. Few objective dangers. The commitment corresponds to back country skiing not far from patrolled areas (ski lifts, trails, villages).

Danger 2: In case of a slide after a fall, the risk of hitting or crashing into a feature (rock outcrop) or trees could have serious consequences. Objective dangers (rock fall, séracs, cornices, avalanches) exist and threaten, above all in unfavorable mountain conditions (heat, wind, etc). The descent is remote or technically committing.

Danger 3: Falling is no longer permitted and the worst case is avoided only by accident or luck. Remoteness and technical difficulty raise the risk. It is crucial that the skier be extremely proficient and psychologically very solid in order to perfectly control their decisions in the moment.

Other Rating Systems

By contrast, here is the thread debating the Colorado D-System.
http://www.backcountryworld.com/show...=rating+system

[greg]

hm, there are so many systems of different ratings.. and even if the system is the same, the difficulties differ by region.

for example. in switzerland and austria S1-S7 is used for skiing difficulty instead of 1-5.X

the whole danger system (1-3) is an invention by baud. nobody else uses it. not even tardivel in his guide for borne et aravis. mostly E1-E4 is used.

only the alpine rating is pretty vastly spread. although there is some confusion concerning the rating for ascent and descent. as an D in ascent would most likely correspond to at least an 5.4 or above in skiing difficulty and match at least an TD+ descending with skis. and most routes rated D climbing aren't doable with skis at all.

so there is some confusion between those two systems especially since some guides resort to the ascending one ( http://www.skitour.fr/topos/aiguille-verte,1482.html ) whereas most just apply the descending classification ( http://yadugaz.free.fr/index.php/200...if-du-mt-blanc ). in my eyes only the latter makes sense. the ascending rating would only make sense as supplementary information. of course this all comes from the fact that, all those classical routes were climbed before having been skied and thus had already a rating that was well known and could be discussed.

[jumpturn]

hm, there are so many systems of different ratings.. and even if the system is the same, the difficulties differ by region.

for example. in switzerland and austria S1-S7 is used for skiing difficulty instead of 1-5.X

the whole danger system (1-3) is an invention by baud. nobody else uses it. not even tardivel in his guide for borne et aravis. mostly E1-E4 is used.

only the alpine rating is pretty vastly spread. although there is some confusion concerning the rating for ascent and descent. as an D in ascent would most likely correspond to at least an 5.4 or above in skiing difficulty and match at least an TD+ descending with skis. and most routes rated D climbing aren't doable with skis at all.

so there is some confusion between those two systems especially since some guides resort to the ascending one ( http://www.skitour.fr/topos/aiguille-verte,1482.html ) whereas most just apply the descending classification ( http://yadugaz.free.fr/index.php/200...if-du-mt-blanc ). in my eyes only the latter makes sense. the ascending rating would only make sense as supplementary information. of course this all comes from the fact that, all those classical routes were climbed before having been skied and thus had already a rating that was well known and could be discussed.

Gee, I would have hoped the euros would have this all worked out by now.

The ascent and descent ratings must be totally different, and I am surprised people get confused. Probably non-skiers. I suppose the angle, the technical descent rating, and how much stuff is hanging over ahead about cover it.

In Baud's scheme, anytime you get a 3 danger, you're into TD and up. But, there are a number of technical 5s that are in the D category, probably because he rates their danger as 2.

It would seem a good idea to separate objective dangers (ie, seracs falls) from subjective (ie, skier screws up).

A separate committment/remoteness level like in rock climbing (I-VII) could be useful as well. It seems to be mushed into the alpine grade now.

It is nice to see the technical ratings broken down into sub-grade by Baud. Like the rock climbing grades, this can help people calibrate their abilities and work up (or down) in small increments. However, like high-end ice climbing (ie 5-7), conditions make a really big difference -- and in skiing they may vary more than in ice climbing within a few hours!

[jumpturn]

The official FFME rating scheme is here:
http://www.ffme.fr/ski-montagne/cota...helle-volo.htm

Check out the variation in technical difficulty based on the snow conditions.

Clearly, powder is for poseurs and real men ski ice!

[davidof]

Demented. And some of them aren't even among the green lines.

Blows my mind that the Gervasutti was first skiied in 1976, Jager in 1977.

Sick work.

Gervasutti was first skied on 17th October 1968 by Sylvain Saudan. Anselm Baud's son Edouard died in the Gerva in May 2004.

The "Baud" rating system is based largely on the Toponeige system invented by Volodia Shahshahani. A google search will give you some info about this. Basically you have the 1-5 ski ratings (descent) and the F-D climb ratings which give you an idea of how hard it is going up. This is the system used by Skitour.fr. Nobody in the community fully understands the Baud climb ratings and some of the descents are overrated according to the people from Skitour who have done the routes. The Shahshahani climb ratings seem to correspond to the difficulty climbing and descending the route on foot which is not that logical either.

For example on Sunday I did a 2.3 ski route, the Tour des Marmottans. This is PD (a little bit difficult) climb which would normally put it into the 3.3 range but the crux is a couloir of 40 degrees that is only climbed not descended. It is all pretty logical.

Here is a list of recent Trip Reports giving further examples in English

http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wik...-time&count=20

[greg]

skiing baud i've thought both. sometimes i found them rated way too hard sometimes too easy. in the end i figured with a bit more or less snow coverage the wind a bit more from over there or maybe rather here i would have rated the route completely different.

rating them is very difficult and can just give a very rough idea of what will expect you. so i don't think it makes to much sense to try to do it to accurately.

[greg]

Basically you have the 1-5 ski ratings (descent) and the F-D climb ratings which give you an idea of how hard it is going up. This is the system used by Skitour.fr. Nobody in the community fully understands the Baud climb ratings

it's not a climb rating, it's a rating including the ski descent too. in fact it is concieved solely for skitouring.

i don't know about france. but this system is widely spread in austria and switzerland. so i wouldn't actually call it a baud system.

[Lone Star]

this thread makes me feel the pit in my stomach I had when cliffed out above an icefall on Quandary at dark a few years ago.

crazy pics!!! good discussion.

[jumpturn]

Here is a list of recent Trip Reports giving further examples in English

http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wik...-time&count=20

Another fine bookmark! Didn't realize hors piste had a TR section.

Got anymore french photo or video sites?

Gérard Pailheiret has a great ice climbing site for les Hautes Alpes
http://www.ice-fall.com/ri/Conditions/de/glace/196.aspx
and people report the conditions in a friendly way.
http://www.ice-fall.com/NewsCondGlace.aspx
Too bad there isn't resource like this for steep skiing.

[davidof]

it's not a climb rating, it's a rating including the ski descent too. in fact it is concieved solely for skitouring.

i don't know about france. but this system is widely spread in austria and switzerland. so i wouldn't actually call it a baud system.

Hi,

I was talking about the Toponeige system rather than Anselm Baud's mixed Toponeige/Alpine system that he used in his book. Baud's book was originally part of the Toponeige series but he and the Toponeige publishers fell out for some reason - maybe over ski gradings.

Here are the SkiTour comments on that system (in French)

http://www.skitour.fr/articles/read_64.html

and you will see that use the R, F, PD... ratings purely to rate the climb section, at least as they are used on SkiTour and in the Toponeige guides which are the principle places that the 1.x-5.x system is implemented. That makes sense for a ski rating system.

It is a bit confusing mixing and matching bits of a system I think.

[splat]

Good site. The two vids there on Mount Blanc are nice, especially the first one. Looks like a great line with a steep consistent pitch. Looks like an amazing mountain for some hardcore-steep chute skiing. On the hit list if I ever take a Euro trip.

I trust you understand how infrequently many of those lines are fit to be skied.

TH - Kris posted about his Cho Oyu descent on the board at powdermag back in the day. The discussion inevitably turned to Hans' death. Turns out another maggot reading his post had witnessed the fall and kinda helped Kris keep it together down to the Montenver.

[Tectonically_Neglected]

another site some of you might enjoy is il y a du gaz..

edit: don't forget to crank up the volume..

la ligne rouge... banzaï

[Tectonically_Neglected]

Juste magnefique!!!

Again...

[davidof]

Another fine bookmark! Didn't realize hors piste had a TR section.

Got anymore french photo or video sites?

Bivouak has trip reports for skiing, climbing, mountain biking and paragliding if you are into that kind of stuff

http://www.bivouak.net/

Nimp' Crew

http://nimp.crew.free.fr/

La Nimp'Crew est passé maître dans l'art de buter en montagne. - The "Stupid" boys are masters in the art of mountain cock-ups! (You need to speak French at level 5.4 to understand this website).

Videos, photos and trip reports, largely extreme stuff around Grenoble.

I would reccommend

http://nimp.crew.free.fr/NimpVideoscope/

Fantastic stuff. A thought for Nat, one of the stars of the videos, who was seriously injured in action at the end of 2005.

Emmanuel Darlix - personal site of photos, trip reports and some videos

BLMS

http://blms.free.fr/php/V2/accueil.php

more Grenoble centric madness.

Some videos I have taken of the season - largely gentle ski touring with some avy education stuff

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=pistehors


PisteHors.com is organised as a Wiki so anyone who is registered can post Trip Reports, routes etc.

[Tectonically_Neglected]

And check out the vid in 'La Dent de Bonavau 2503m-Massif du Chablais (SUISSE)' also...

[greg]

Hi,

I was talking about the Toponeige system rather than Anselm Baud's mixed Toponeige/Alpine system that he used in his book. Baud's book was originally part of the Toponeige series but he and the Toponeige publishers fell out for some reason - maybe over ski gradings.

Here are the SkiTour comments on that system (in French)

http://www.skitour.fr/articles/read_64.html

and you will see that use the R, F, PD... ratings purely to rate the climb section, at least as they are used on SkiTour and in the Toponeige guides which are the principle places that the 1.x-5.x system is implemented. That makes sense for a ski rating system.

It is a bit confusing mixing and matching bits of a system I think.

i wasn't aware, that in france this scale is so widely used for skitouring. i actually thought that would rather be an exception or a relict. in switzerland and austria we use the scale baud and tardivel resort to and never the toponeige one. so i'm actually very comfortable with baud's ratings. if for some reason someone feels compelled to mention the summer rating / climbing scale i expect some wierdo mixt section that is rappeled on the way down or some extraordinary difficulties during the climg if the route is different than the way down.

but normally we don't use it at all for skidescents.

btw. here is another site you guys might be interrested in.

http://www.skirando.ch/guide.html?reason=filter

just choose a high level in skiing difficulty or total difficulty and you'll get to the interesting stuff.

btw. most of the routes on this site are rated a bit more difficult than baud's rating. the only route i find seriously a bit overrated in his book is aig. de argentiere, glacier du milieu. but i suppose his rating is a tribute to the somewhat long approach..

[davidof]

> some extraordinary difficulties during the climg if the route is different than the way down.

Typical examples of such being tours and traverses where you might want to know what you are climbing in order to decide what gear to take - alu crampons, steel crampons, 2 ice axes.