Running, Anyone...?

**fool** · 02-06-2021, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Cruiser

Ran outside for the first time since October when I sprained my ankle! Been putting some time in on the treadmill but it's just not the same. God damned high ankle sprain is a bitch. But it sure did feel good to get out on the trail again.

As an aside, I think I average about 30% of my time with headphones and 70% without. Do you play music or listen to podcasts when you're running outside? Was bumping some Bootsy Collins today...

FWIW, Cruiser, I recommend working on one leg standing (on both ankles) to improve proprioception, which (I've been told) helps with ankle sprains by increasing body awareness. It sounds silly, but I sometimes brush my teeth standing on one foot (PT recommendation), ideally with my eyes closed.

And I definitely rock podcasts on most runs. Generally news on the weekday runs and then longer podcasts on the weekend adventures.

Edit: Also, any Front Rangers have recommendations on running stores? Ideally something near Wash Park in Denver but open to the general Denver, Golden, and (maybe) Boulder area.

**doebedoe** · 02-08-2021, 01:48 PM

Fool -- if you're looking for a trail oriented place, Berkeley Running Company is a cool spot.

Anyone with experience training for a 50k while ski touring through the spring have any tips or tricks?

I'm running about 20mpw right now, but am thinking I might wanna try my first ultra this sept-ish. No goals except completion, ideally without feeling like total death.

I haven't written out a formal plan but in general trying to increase 10-15% a week for 3 weeks, and holding steady/reducing a bit the 4th week. 4ish runs a week, usually with a day of inbounds skiing and a day or couple mornings of touring.

Spring is my favorite bit of ski season and am hoping to put in a number of bigger days this spring (4-6K days.) Current thinking is to generally ski tour on Sat and do long runs Sunday on tired legs. Thinking if I can do mid-20s on tired legs, 30ish on fresh shouldn't be too bad?

**Falcon3** · 02-09-2021, 10:43 AM

Get this book:

Training for the Uphill Athlete: A Manual for Mountain Runners and Ski Mountaineers

I’ve got a friend that’s a hardcore ultra runner that heartily recommends this book

https://www.patagonia.com/product/tr...iABEgLe9_D_BwE

**stradissimo** · 02-09-2021, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by doebedoe

Spring is my favorite bit of ski season and am hoping to put in a number of bigger days this spring (4-6K days.) Current thinking is to generally ski tour on Sat and do long runs Sunday on tired legs. Thinking if I can do mid-20s on tired legs, 30ish on fresh shouldn't be too bad?

I have a buddy who has finished the Hardrock a bunch of times. He told me that just being on your feet, moving for long hours is the key to building ultra endurance. An 8-hour hike is better than 2 hours of 7-minute miles.

So it seems to me that spring tours, especially if you are out for 10 hours or longer would be good “training”.

In your shoes, I would pay close attention to total training volume and try to avoid over training. A long tour followed by a 25-mile run would shatter me.

**sruffian** · 02-09-2021, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by doebedoe

Anyone with experience training for a 50k while ski touring through the spring have any tips or tricks?

I'm running about 20mpw right now, but am thinking I might wanna try my first ultra this sept-ish. No goals except completion, ideally without feeling like total death.

.....

Spring is my favorite bit of ski season and am hoping to put in a number of bigger days this spring (4-6K days.) Current thinking is to generally ski tour on Sat and do long runs Sunday on tired legs. Thinking if I can do mid-20s on tired legs, 30ish on fresh shouldn't be too bad?

I've done this. September is a totally doable time frame for a 50k. Second the uphill athlete book - lays out training basics nicely.

FWIW - I'm planning to ramp to a 50 miler around that time of year, but am running like 5-10 mpw right now. But I'm skiing 10k vert a week and double that in peak weeks and all of my running is tempo or interval work.

Sean Bearden says 50 mpw for 3 weeks to perform well - https://www.scienceofultra.com/resou...leage-minimums

If you can run 20mpw and ski weekends through June, then replace ONE weekend tour with a long run and one with a hike through July you'll be fine. As strad mentioned, touring a full spring day and running 20+ miles the next day is not going to maximize training benefits

**carpathian** · 02-09-2021, 07:52 PM

I love me some uphill run training!

**fool** · 02-10-2021, 12:05 AM

Thanks, d: will check out Berkeley Run Co.

Generally agree on the recs for the book and being able to do a 50k with that basic structure. You could argue to put the long run on Sat and ski tour on Sunday but probably not a huge difference. If you don’t want to get into the details of Uphill Athlete - which I love - recommend looking at the training programs from iRunFar or their book.

Also, could checkout this guide for 2021 training. It covers a lot of the basics: https://trailrunnermag.com/training/...kthroughs.html

Sruffian - what did you sign up for in Sep? I signed up for Run Rabbit Run 50 and am stoked about it!

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**DLD in UT** · 02-10-2021, 09:15 AM

Training for a 50k is not that much different from a marathon. Look up any of the million marathon training plans online and just make the weekend long runs 20% longer. Hopefully it is obvious that you want to do the bulk of your training on the same surface and vertical profile of the race, but you can get by without it, though you'll feel the difference during the race. As others have said, with your race in Sept you are fine to just get in some running now along with the skiing.

I typically don't train through the winters, just ski and let my body recover. I start trying to be more dedicated and structured with my running as it warms in late March. Even doing that, I typically would run a 50k in April, 50m in June/July, and a 100m in Sept. Granted I am carrying fitness and body adaptation from year to year.

Is this your first ultra distance race? have you run other mountain races? Like the others I highly recommend the Training for the Uphill Athlete book, but only if you are ready to geek out and are wanting to get into the ultra scene long term.

**cravenmorhead** · 02-10-2021, 09:16 AM

Uphill Athlete is a great book for understanding the "whys" of training, and the impacts various types of training have on your body. It can feel really dense at times, but it's great background to have if you're evaluating training plans or trying to determine how to adjust your own plan.

**sruffian** · 02-10-2021, 09:19 AM

Fool - that would be my go to if the biggest work event of the year weren’t that weekend.

Looking at the bear 50m, three bears in Idaho or cascade super ultra

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**DLD in UT** · 02-10-2021, 09:45 AM

The three bears races are tiny. In an ultra it can be a huge boost to your morale to be around other people. The course up there would be nice, but you can prob find some others with more people similar time frame.

**doebedoe** · 02-10-2021, 09:45 AM

Thanks for feedback all -- Training for Uphill Athlete is on its way. And yeah, big tour + 20+ miler in same weekend is dumb idea.

Originally Posted by DLD in UT

Is this your first ultra distance race? have you run other mountain races? Like the others I highly recommend the Training for the Uphill Athlete book, but only if you are ready to geek out and are wanting to get into the ultra scene long term.

Yes, this would be my first race over a half and my first mountain race. I've run maybe a dozen 10-15milers in the mountains up to about 12.5k, but nothing of this length in my life. Just seems the right time to do it now that I've been running mostly-consistently for 3 years, and am WFH until at least end of summer.

I've schedule a trail half in April (Desert Rats), and roped a friend from over there into the idea of running it with me and trying to ski Mt. Tuk the following day if it is in.

As for the race, looking at two options. My preferred would be the continental divide race in Steamboat at end of August. But I fear the last 8 miles of downhill running might just destroy me. The other option for a 50k near the Front Range at that time is Bear Chase 50k -- which excites me less from a course-beauty perspective but the terrain and logistics are easier.

**DLD in UT** · 02-10-2021, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by doebedoe

And yeah, big tour + 20+ miler in same weekend is dumb idea.
...

As for the race, looking at two options. My preferred would be the continental divide race in Steamboat at end of August. But I fear the last 8 miles of downhill running might just destroy me. The other option for a 50k near the Front Range at that time is Bear Chase 50k -- which excites me less from a course-beauty perspective but the terrain and logistics are easier.

Do the race that excites you. You can train the downhill running. Do hard long downhills. They will destroy your quads the first few times, but muscles will learn and adapt. Worst that happens is you cramp, hobble in to finish, and are sore for a few days.

Doing a long run after a long tour is not a bad idea. In ultras just being able to keep going when you're tired is HUGE. Maybe don't do a 20 miler after a long tour, but start with a 7-8 miler after a long Saturday, and work up from there.

**Dantheman** · 02-10-2021, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by DLD in UT

You can train the downhill running. Do hard long downhills. They will destroy your quads the first few times, but muscles will learn and adapt.

This cannot be overemphasized, especially if the grades are more than 8-10%. Downhill running is almost 100% eccentric loading and if you're not adapted to it it destroys you, quickly. You do adapt, though. Google "repeated bout effect."

Originally Posted by DLD in UT

Worst that happens is you cramp, hobble in to finish, and are sore for a few days.

I'll disagree a bit here. There is real potential for rhabdomyolysis if your quads are not well-adapted to hard descending. It looks like the Steamboat CDT race is "only" 5k vert, but that's still enough descending to take seriously. A proper mountain 50k with 6k-10k of descending could absolutely put you in the hospital with acute kidney failure if your quads are not adapted to descending.

**doebedoe** · 02-10-2021, 12:31 PM

Thanks for the thoughts all. I live in the Front Range, so we have plenty of trails where I can slowly up my descent work so that 5k doesn't come as a complete shock.

Another option could be the Sage Burner 50k in Gunnison which doesn't have quite the hellish descent at the end.

**Dantheman** · 02-10-2021, 12:38 PM

I wouldn't sweat that final descent much as long as you can train properly for it. You might even find it enjoyable and/or a good opportunity to pass a lot of people who went out too hard early. When I ran the Speedgoat 50k (11k of descending) I passed gobs of people on the final 9-mile descent.

**I've seen black diamonds!** · 02-10-2021, 12:44 PM

Doebedoe, I'm registered for the Continental Divide Trail Run in Steamboat. I'm on the waitlist for a couple other races I'd prefer (I forget which ones...), but I doubt I'll get in since so many people have rolled registrations over from cancelled 2020 races.

I'm not much of a racer, but I've finished a couple August 50Ks while focusing more on BC skiing during winter and spring. The key for me seems to be running enough in winter that when it becomes a priority I'm ready to start adding miles comfortably. If I don't run enough, my feet/calves achilles can't keep up with my quads, which is a good recipe for injury. For me that means about 3 runs a week in winter and early spring, with one of the being higher quality (enough distance, elevation or speed that I feel it the next day) and 2 being fairly lazy. I don't want running to detract from skiing in any way. I also need to lift a couple days a week so my body doesn't break down. I'm not strict about any of this. If I have time to ski more than a couple days in a week I run less, but that doesn't happen much.

Sometime in April, when the weather gets nicer and I can run after the kids go to bed without freezing my ass off, I start ramping up the miles. I also go into maintenance mode with the lifting, focusing on my never-ending PT and trying not to lose strength too quickly. I figure I have a limited amount of effort I can recover from and this is about when I start allotting more of my "recovery points" to running.

And yeah, read Uphill Athlete. It's both informative and inspiring.

**doebedoe** · 02-10-2021, 02:12 PM

Well we should probably get out and run again sometime ISBD. Honestly -- as you know -- downhill + ankle twists are my biggest concerns. I'm hoping to do the Skyline traverse late spring/early summer as a fitness goal. Good to hear how you've approached it in the past.

I really need to add some strength training in it sounds like.

And for clarity to others: I am very much not a racer.

**sfotex** · 02-10-2021, 02:55 PM

Three bears is ok, a lot of the course is on chewed up motocross trails and dusty roads.

Squaw was my first 50, I try to run it every year but it's kind of early. Speedgoat is always a good time. It might have a 'k' vs. an 'm' after the 50, but you wont tell the difference.
Tushar Mountain race has a 70k this year - I love the course, it feels like your running in the San Juans.
I signed up for my first 100 , Run Rabbit Run, I decided I needed to step it after 2020.

**Dantheman** · 02-10-2021, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by sfotex

Speedgoat is always a good time. It might have a 'k' vs. an 'm' after the 50, but you wont tell the difference.

Heh.

**Falcon3** · 02-10-2021, 04:27 PM

Dammit you guys I used to hate running, but you’ve all talked me into signing up for a 25k this summer. I did a couple 50 mile mtb races last year, planning on a couple more this summer and I need something for cross training so I guess running is it.

**2bjenny** · 02-10-2021, 10:01 PM

Can also recommend the Beaverhead 55k, River of No Return; and Scout Mountain Ultras. They’re not huge races, but the directors and volunteers do a great job.

**sruffian** · 02-11-2021, 08:25 AM

Doebedoe- stoked for ya. I’d take seriously the training for downhills and keep in mind that skiing MAY give you an advantage in handling eccentric loads. I am also not a racer but can run downs harder than most midpackers

Thanks for the input on three bears. Ha the plus side of small ultras is saying I finished second in my age group...

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**sfotex** · 02-14-2021, 08:16 AM

Ran the Red Hot 55k yesterday. It’s usually the kick off for the running season for me, so slow and painful with awesome scenery and nice weather. Well, it decided to rain/snow all day, and the wind howled. Was never able to get my legs warm. I think I’ll thaw out in a few months.
The getting my feet back under me + the bitter weather definitely messed with my head. Maybe I got the low point of the year out of the way?

**fool** · 02-14-2021, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by sruffian

Fool - that would be my go to if the biggest work event of the year weren’t that weekend.

Looking at the bear 50m, three bears in Idaho or cascade super ultra

Nice, those all sound good, sruffian.

Originally Posted by Falcon3

Dammit you guys I used to hate running, but you’ve all talked me into signing up for a 25k this summer. I did a couple 50 mile mtb races last year, planning on a couple more this summer and I need something for cross training so I guess running is it.

Yes - that's awesome. Since you ride too, pretty soon you can start training for Leadman/woman.

Originally Posted by sfotex

Ran the Red Hot 55k yesterday. It’s usually the kick off for the running season for me, so slow and painful with awesome scenery and nice weather. Well, it decided to rain/snow all day, and the wind howled. Was never able to get my legs warm. I think I’ll thaw out in a few months.
The getting my feet back under me + the bitter weather definitely messed with my head. Maybe I got the low point of the year out of the way?

For sure, sfotex! I feel like times are weird just all around right now. If it was anywhere close to how cold it is in the Front Range, it was probably a pretty interesting race. Low point out of the way now and then RRR100 in Sep will be a beautiful day! (It's on my list at some point as well).