Running, Anyone...?

[phatty]

My Runventure 2s are just about dead and I need shoe suggestions. While good in a number of ways, the Runventure 2s would have died a long time ago if I hadn't been able to keep the soles intact with contact cement. There's also way too much area on the sole (meaning, more than zero ) that is foam and not rubber. So, they're out.

Here's my wish list:

1. ZERO foam on the sole. Preferably wall-to-wall vibram.
2. <5 mm drop, <25 mm stack
3. Rock plate
4. Wide. I have a size 7 foot with an EE width. I've had a Morton's neuroma resection in my left foot and have another Morton's in my right foot that I've thankfully been able manage and isn't currently painful. I'd like to keep it that way.

Zero concerns about weight. I don't care for pounding out tons of flat miles anymore. These days my "running" involves steep mountain trails and scrambling. I have a goal to do the WURL next summer (https://door5.com/2015/08/23/wasatch...e-linkup-wurl/ Not all in one go, I don't think I'll ever have that in me. Hoping for 2-3 efforts spread over a few weekends). So, I need something that will hold up to serious downhill abuse and will be confidence inspiring on 4th/low-5th class rock.

I swore off Altra after owning a pair of Lone Peak 2s and Lone Peak 3s that both fell apart fast and sucked on sidehills (fool me twice as they say, but the 3s were on sale and I held out hope they had fixed those issues in the 3). But, I can't help thinking that the new Grafton is exactly the shoe I'm looking for. The King MT 2 also looks like it could fit the bill.

Anything else out there that checks those boxes?

A little higher on stack height (26.5 in heel), but I love my Saucony Xodus Iso. Awesome grip, all rubber sole with great tread. Enough cushioning for 10+ mile outings on rough terrain. No rock plate, but enough firm rubber under foot that it feels like it has one. Wide enough in forefoot to give my feet room. I've only put around 60 miles on them, but they still look practically new.

[Buke]

I ran my first marathon last Sunday. It was a long process to go from not being able to run a mile a couple years ago to running a full marathon. Overall, it was a great experience but I'm not too excited about doing another road marathon.

Race Report
Race: Seattle Marathon
Time: 4:34:23 (yep, I'm slow and I'm fine with that)
Weather: cool (between 34 and 43 degrees) but thankfully dry

My goals where, in order of priority, 1. Don't get hurt 2. Finish 3. run sub 4:30. I got the first 2 goals, and I'm happy that I was pretty close to the 3rd goal.

As you might expect, I ran the first half too fast. Mind you, I wasn't fast, I just ran a little faster than I should have. I was on a solid 4:20 pace until mile 18. That's when things started to fall apart. Leg cramps started up around mile 21. That's where I started walking for 30 - 60 seconds each mile in order to make sure that I could get to the finish.

All in all, I'm pretty happy with how it went. I learned a ton and I've got a solid base to train for the next thing whatever that ends up being. I'm considering a 50k trail run this coming spring.

[2bjenny]

I ran my first marathon last Sunday. It was a long process to go from not being able to run a mile a couple years ago to running a full marathon. Overall, it was a great experience but I'm not too excited about doing another road marathon.

Race Report
Race: Seattle Marathon
Time: 4:34:23 (yep, I'm slow and I'm fine with that)
Weather: cool (between 34 and 43 degrees) but thankfully dry

My goals where, in order of priority, 1. Don't get hurt 2. Finish 3. run sub 4:30. I got the first 2 goals, and I'm happy that I was pretty close to the 3rd goal.

As you might expect, I ran the first half too fast. Mind you, I wasn't fast, I just ran a little faster than I should have. I was on a solid 4:20 pace until mile 18. That's when things started to fall apart. Leg cramps started up around mile 21. That's where I started walking for 30 - 60 seconds each mile in order to make sure that I could get to the finish.

All in all, I'm pretty happy with how it went. I learned a ton and I've got a solid base to train for the next thing whatever that ends up being. I'm considering a 50k trail run this coming spring.

Congratulations!!!

I am slow too, but it is a great feeling to achieve your goals.
I ran my first 55K last year, was super slow, but I finished and didn't get hurt. Those were my goals. I said I would never do it again after finishing. So, what have my friend and I done? Registered for it again next summer! I have to admit that I don't get excited about any road races anymore, except the occasional 5K for a local cause.

[Dantheman]

but I'm not too excited about doing another road marathon.

Good, that means you're not crazy

The ever-increasing popularity of road marathons is like some bizarre form of mass-psychosis.

With that out of the way, congrats! You're going to love trails. Based on what phatty has posted recently you have some killer stuff to go explore. The great thing about long-distance trail running is that epic backcountry routes that would normally require a 3-4 backpacking trip can be done in a day.

[Buke]

The great thing about long-distance trail running is that epic backcountry routes that would normally require a 3-4 backpacking trip can be done in a day.

That's one of my main motivations. I like long backpacking trips but with 3 kids in elementary school it's just not an option. A couple years ago a friend posted some pics of a run that he had done from Snoqualmie to Stevens Pass on the PCT. It's 75 miles and he did it in a little over 24 hours. Later that year I went on a short overnight trip with my kids and we crossed paths with these runners who had done Glacier Peak in a day. That's when it hit me that a lot of the big objectives that I assumed weren't within reach were actually pretty attainable. As a runner I can cover as many miles in a day as my backpacking friends normally cover in 3-4 days. All of a sudden, I can do some of those bigger objectives on a saturday and still be home for dinner.

I haven't done too much trail running in the Cascades yet but I've done a little. For instance I did the Enchantments Traverse in a single day push this fall. We would have run most of it but one of the guys in our group sprained his ankle so our speed ground to a halt.

I have some PNW mission ideas that are totally doable with the right planning. For instance, it turns out that it's almost exactly a full marathon distance from the Sulphur Creek Campground to Holden Village on the opposite side of the Cascades. That route, starting on the Suiattle sports a modest 7k of vert.

[phatty]

That's one of my main motivations. I like long backpacking trips but with 3 kids in elementary school it's just not an option. A couple years ago a friend posted some pics of a run that he had done from Snoqualmie to Stevens Pass on the PCT. It's 75 miles and he did it in a little over 24 hours. Later that year I went on a short overnight trip with my kids and we crossed paths with these runners who had done Glacier Peak in a day. That's when it hit me that a lot of the big objectives that I assumed weren't within reach were actually pretty attainable. As a runner I can cover as many miles in a day as my backpacking friends normally cover in 3-4 days. All of a sudden, I can do some of those bigger objectives on a saturday and still be home for dinner.

I haven't done too much trail running in the Cascades yet but I've done a little. For instance I did the Enchantments Traverse in a single day push this fall. We would have run most of it but one of the guys in our group sprained his ankle so our speed ground to a halt.

I have some PNW mission ideas that are totally doable with the right planning. For instance, it turns out that it's almost exactly a full marathon distance from the Sulphur Creek Campground to Holden Village on the opposite side of the Cascades. That route, starting on the Suiattle sports a modest 7k of vert.

Yeah, I've been scoping out a lot routes in the Cascades. I try to get out for ~10mi missions a couple of times a week before work during the summer. I'm with you on road marathons. I did one on the Iron horse trail last year (flat with slight downhill the whole way). I don't see myself doing one like that again. I hit my goal (sub 4hrs) but my body was wrecked for a week. Looking at first real trail marathon (50k) in April out at Ancient Lakes. Main objective for next year is a 3 day Wonderland trail. 90mi and 25k should be doable if I push myself in training over the winter/spring. Glacier Peak in a day is pretty bad ass.

[Buke]

Yeah, I've been scoping out a lot routes in the Cascades. I try to get out for ~10mi missions a couple of times a week before work during the summer. I'm with you on road marathons. I did one on the Iron horse trail last year (flat with slight downhill the whole way). I don't see myself doing one like that again. I hit my goal (sub 4hrs) but my body was wrecked for a week. Looking at first real trail marathon (50k) in April out at Ancient Lakes. Main objective for next year is a 3 day Wonderland trail. 90mi and 25k should be doable if I push myself in training over the winter/spring. Glacier Peak in a day is pretty bad ass.

Yeah, I'm pretty wrecked post marathon. Went out for a short jog last night and I'm pretty sure it was too soon. I had foot pains that I hadn't noticed before, my hamstring tendons at the back of my knew were on fire, and I have some tight knot in my butt that I didn't notice before.

I hadn't seen the Ancient Lakes race. It happens on my birthday this year. That wouldn't be a bad way to turn 40 but I think my wife has some plans. I'm leaning heavily toward doing the Tillamook Burn 50k down in Oregon in late April. I haven't been down there but the trails look sweet and I really like the idea of an out and back race better than a loop course that gets to 50k by doing more loops. I'm not sure that I'd have the motivation to keep going after 25k if I knew that I was just going to repeat what I'd already done.

Another one that you might look at is the Destination Trail Series Race on Orcas Island. I did the half marathon last spring and it was awesome. The half marathon has 3900' of elevation crammed into the 14 mile course. They have a marathon course which doesn't repeat any trails and has nearly 6000' of elevation. It's a super cool place to run, with great views of the San Juan Islands poking out here and there as you go.

[GeezerSteve]

A 50K at Ancient Lakes? Cool place but it's gonna be a shit show. Early April is prime time AL hiking season for non-skiers.

ETA: I just looked at the course map. It'll be crowded in spots, but probably not a total shitshow. Finish line is at the NW corner (not the more popular TH above the lakes to the E), route avoids the busy down/up to/from the TH to the E and much of the course is on trails to the SW that get little use.

Yeah, I'm pretty wrecked post marathon. Went out for a short jog last night and I'm pretty sure it was too soon. I had foot pains that I hadn't noticed before, my hamstring tendons at the back of my knew were on fire, and I have some tight knot in my butt that I didn't notice before.

I always walked a few miles the day after an ultra -- usually 18 holes of golf -- but avoided jogging. Best o' luck with the recovery.

[Mofro261]

With that out of the way, congrats! You're going to love trails. Based on what phatty has posted recently you have some killer stuff to go explore. The great thing about long-distance trail running is that epic backcountry routes that would normally require a 3-4 backpacking trip can be done in a day.

Having done it both ways, completing a 3-4 day epic backpacking trip in one day misses the point entirely, unless the point was just getting from point A to B as quick as possible and skipping out on the epic.

[Dantheman]

Having done it both ways, completing a 3-4 day epic backpacking trip in one day misses the point entirely, unless the point was just getting from point A to B as quick as possible and skipping out on the epic.

I didn't say backpacking was stupid or pointless. The point is this:

I like long backpacking trips but with 3 kids in elementary school it's just not an option...As a runner I can cover as many miles in a day as my backpacking friends normally cover in 3-4 days. All of a sudden, I can do some of those bigger objectives on a saturday and still be home for dinner.

Most people with day jobs and families can't go spend 3-4 days in the wilderness very often, but can usually get a day-long hall pass at least a few times per month. While it doesn't have the same level of transcendentalism that comes with multi-day trips, doing those same routes and seeing all those same amazing places in one big day beats the shit out of not going there at all.

[GeezerSteve]

WA PCT Section J in one jaunt vs. 3 or 4 days is apples vs. oranges, completely different experiences. Among other things, the former requires substantial travel in the dark, so a one-push fast hiker/runner is gonna trade 7 or 8 hours of staring at a headlight-lit trail for spectacular views.

Another thing: Thru hiker/section hiker mania has changed the PCT experience. 10 years ago I would have preferred to do Section J in 3 or 4 days, but now (if I still had 50 y.o. ultra legs) I'd do it in one push. The campsites from late July to mid-September have become overcrowded pig sties. Last August, I saw scores of toilet paper blossoms strewn all about the campsites at Spectacle Lake. IME, Section J in August or early September no longer qualifies as a wilderness experience. OTOH, one good thing about overcrowded social media hyped trails is that unhyped off-trail routes in the WA Central Cascades seem to have fewer parties than they had 10 or 20 years ago.

[Dantheman]

WA PCT Section J in one jaunt vs. 3 or 4 days is apples vs. oranges, completely different experienced. Among other things, the former requires at least 8 hours of travel in the dark, so a one-push fast hiker/runner is gonna trade staring at a headlight-lit trail for spectacular views

Yeah, hours and hours in the dark is not something I'm interested in, personally. How many miles/vert is that section? A good local example in Utardia of what I'm talking about is Kings Peak in a day. That's about 28 miles/6k, usually done as a 3-4 day pack trip, and we knocked it out in a little over 8 hours including close to an hour of chilling at the summit.

[phatty]

Yeah, hours and hours in the dark is not something I'm interested in, personally. How many miles/vert is that section? A good local example in Utardia of what I'm talking about is Kings Peak in a day. That's about 28 miles/6k, usually done as a 3-4 day pack trip, and we knocked it out in a little over 8 hours including close to an hour of chilling at the summit.

Those are the types of days I look for and the reason I'm looking at 3 days fast packing for Wonderland. I don't want to waste the scenery going through the night. I just like covering the 20-30 miles in one long day. I am lucky if I can get one a month in the summer.

[Mofro261]

I didn't say backpacking was stupid or pointless. The point is this:

I didn't say trail running was stupid or pointless. I said you are kidding yourself if you think you are getting the same "experience" of the trip when compressed into one day. Apples to Oranges.

Per Steve's example and my own personal experience with Section J- hiked this many years ago as a 5 nighter, 70ish miles and a wee bit under 20K. Also have run it point to point from Steven's to Snoq Pass in a little under 24 hrs including a couple hrs snooze 2-4am. The same distance, but not close to the same trip and I have retained much fonder memories of the former than the latter.

Also have done King's Peak in a day, I assumed most did it that way. We dropped shrooms and spent several hours wandering around in the Alpine, so it turned into 12+hrs of "transcendence."

(Shrug) When my kids got to Elmentary age I just made them come with me on multi-day trips. In hindsight probably the best parenting move I ever made. Well, that and passing on the ski gene.

[Dantheman]

I didn't say trail running was stupid or pointless. I said you are kidding yourself if you think you are getting the same "experience" of the trip when compressed into one day. Apples to Oranges.

I never said it was the same experience. What are you talking about?

No, "most" people do not do Kings in a day. 3 days is most common--1 day to the head of Henry Fork, 1 day to dayhike the peak, 1 day to hike out. We ended up doing it on labor day weekend so we probably saw close to 20 other people. All of them were backpacking and most let us know they thought we were crazy (we were quite aware of how decidedly un-badass we were).

Your kids did 30-mile, 3-day backpacking trips in elementary school? Damn, respect, they're radder than mine.

[carpathian]

The last time I tried going on a 3 day back pack ‘epic’ we decided , two hours in, to just push nonstop through the night . Yes, while still carrying 3 days worth of gear and a full size 12-gauge to boot...

I was about 18 at the time and I can’t say the trip was a fond memory, but it sure is an indelible memory. Kind of like the trips my dad used to drag us kids on . Lol

[Mofro261]

I never said it was the same experience. What are you talking about?

No, "most" people do not do Kings in a day. 3 days is most common--1 day to the head of Henry Fork, 1 day to dayhike the peak, 1 day to hike out. We ended up doing it on labor day weekend so we probably saw close to 20 other people. All of them were backpacking and most let us know they thought we were crazy (we were quite aware of how decidedly un-badass we were).

Your kids did 30-mile, 3-day backpacking trips in elementary school? Damn, respect, they're radder than mine.

Sorry my apologies, it seemed an implied equivalence when you said the "great thing about trail running is you can do epic 3-4 backpacking routes in one day." I was just commenting having done a number of both across the same routes, that they were not equivalent to me.

Re Kings- when I did it aug 2003, we saw zero other people, no campers. I was told it was 18-20 not 28 miles rt, but those were also the 2 locals with the shrooms.

Yeah I guess I was the hardass dad? I usually tried to limit it to 8-10/day in planning, but we had a few days that stretched 12+, one 16 mile day when they were 9 and 11 escaping late Aug snow fall on Red Mtn Pass. Id plan1-2 nighters in the 10-20 mi range and one 5-6 night and 50+ outing each year from age 6 and up. Kind of stopped when they became teens but then coordinating around ski camps and the rest of their general activities got harder.

Age 4 and 6 coming out in the dark after a 10mi day.


The 4 yro is now a 18yro frosh at U of U with 22 skiing days this season.

[Viva]

Awesome!!!

[carpathian]

Sorry my apologies, it seemed an implied equivalence when you said the "great thing about trail running is you can do epic 3-4 backpacking routes in one day." I was just commenting having done a number of both across the same routes, that they were not equivalent to me.

Re Kings- when I did it aug 2003, we saw zero other people, no campers. I was told it was 18-20 not 28 miles rt, but those were also the 2 locals with the shrooms.

Yeah I guess I was the hardass dad? I usually tried to limit it to 8-10/day in planning, but we had a few days that stretched 12+, one 16 mile day when they were 9 and 11 escaping late Aug snow fall on Red Mtn Pass. Id plan1-2 nighters in the 10-20 mi range and one 5-6 night and 50+ outing each year from age 6 and up. Kind of stopped when they became teens but then coordinating around ski camps and the rest of their general activities got harder.

Age 4 and 6 coming out in the dark after a 10mi day.


The 4 yro is now a 18yro frosh at U of U with 22 skiing days this season.

Dang I’m gonna show my 4 and 10 year old girls this, they be slacking! ( or I be slacking)

[Dantheman]

Wow, very, very impressive.

[bodywhomper]

Dan the man, have you looked at joe nimble trail shoes? Very wide toe box. 3 year guarantee

[phatty]

As long as it keeps not snowing, I'm going to keep running. 5.7mi, 3500ft in 2hrs. Beautiful morning in the mountains outside Seattle today. Such a contrast to the fog and clouds outside my window at work in the city.

[Buke]

Sorry my apologies, it seemed an implied equivalence when you said the "great thing about trail running is you can do epic 3-4 backpacking routes in one day." I was just commenting having done a number of both across the same routes, that they were not equivalent to me.

Re Kings- when I did it aug 2003, we saw zero other people, no campers. I was told it was 18-20 not 28 miles rt, but those were also the 2 locals with the shrooms.

Yeah I guess I was the hardass dad? I usually tried to limit it to 8-10/day in planning, but we had a few days that stretched 12+, one 16 mile day when they were 9 and 11 escaping late Aug snow fall on Red Mtn Pass. Id plan1-2 nighters in the 10-20 mi range and one 5-6 night and 50+ outing each year from age 6 and up. Kind of stopped when they became teens but then coordinating around ski camps and the rest of their general activities got harder.

Age 4 and 6 coming out in the dark after a 10mi day.


The 4 yro is now a 18yro frosh at U of U with 22 skiing days this season.

I need to up the ante with my kids I guess. My youngest is 4.5. She got to go on her first overnight backpacking trip this year. I ended up carrying her backpack which only had her clothes and a few snacks in it. My father-in-law went with us. He kept her chatting and she didn't notice how far she had walked. But 3 miles was a bit of a stretch. The older kids (6 & 8) like it but don't love it and it takes quite a bit of preparation to keep them motivated.

I'm optimistic that I'll be able to get them interested enough to enjoy some multi day trips but realistically I'm still a few years away from it being something that they really look forward to.

That gets to the trail running. Long mountain trail runs and long multi-day backpacking trips are definitely different experiences. With that said, I really like the idea of big 1 day missions in the mountain that cover a lot of ground. It also dovetails well with other things, like big 1 day pushes on skis in the winter, or long 1 day mountaineering trips in the summer.

[Buke]

As long as it keeps not snowing, I'm going to keep running. 5.7mi, 3500ft in 2hrs. Beautiful morning in the mountains outside Seattle today. Such a contrast to the fog and clouds outside my window at work in the city.

Nice work. Is that Mt. Si, or further west?

[phatty]

Nice work. Is that Mt. Si, or further west?

Mt. Si up the old trail. Gorgeous morning. Hope to get in a couple more.

None of Mofro's parental bad assery surprises me. I've taken my boys on multiple 50+ mile trips with Boy Scouts, but never tried to take a 4yo up to Rachel Lake. I just hope my 9yo could handle it.