NSR: Bertuzzi should be tossed out of the game

[seldon]

I'm curious to know where you think something stops being an "acceptable foul" and starts being a felony. Take this instance:

HS Lacrosse game last year. One of our players hits this guy, real knockdown hit, but is a little off and slams him in the facemask instead of the chest, which is where it was aimed. Helmet pops off (the straps weren't tight enough), kid ends up with a concusion.

Ref calls a slash b/c it was a hit to the head. 1 minute penalty, nothing else.


No questions asked as to whether this was a felony, even though this was "outside of the rules".



I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your point, but should the leagues have guidelines for what constitues an acceptable, intentional foul (intentional fouling in bball, intimidation fouling in lacrosse/football/hockey) and what is simply OUT of line?

I think they should. And I think the primary criteria should be intention to injure. If I'm just pushing from behind on a loose ball to intimidate a kid, fine, but if I'm slamming him into the ground and trying to break his knees, then it crosses over into an area where I personally should be liable for that.

NOTE: I have never, and never intend to, slam a kid into the ground to break his knees.

[powderpyg]

Originally posted by maddog
...If a substantial number of people on this board started committing violent crimes, yes, I would quit reading it. The media is not committing these violent acts, the athletes are, and will continue to do so as long as they are condoned by fans and managers of the sports industry. It's all about big money, and they won't be getting any more of mine. I'll find my beauty in art, nature, literature, etc. I don't hate the game, I hate what the game has become.

You'll be sadly miseed !

[duph]

Originally posted by maddog
...If a substantial number of people on this board started committing violent crimes, yes, I would quit reading it. The media is not committing these violent acts, the athletes are, and will continue to do so as long as they are condoned by fans and managers of the sports industry. It's all about big money, and they won't be getting any more of mine. I'll find my beauty in art, nature, literature, etc. I don't hate the game, I hate what the game has become.

You've emphasized my point. The game hasn't changed(in terms of violence), the media coverage has. Your perception of hockey is what the media has been feeding you. There are NOT a substantial # of players commiting acts like this. Not even one half of one percent of games feature ugliness anywhere near that bad. There were a bunch of hockey games today. Yesterday too. But what highlights have you been seeing over and over again? The media IS guilty of portraying the NHL the way you are perceiving it. In reality, for every ugly play, there are a million things of beauty. But you're only being shown that one ugly one, and you're buying into what you're being fed, by the worst perpetrators of ugliness imagineable - THE MEDIA.

[fridge]

Originally posted by powslut
yeah, but who's to say that a hockey glove isn't a weapon? those things are fucking hard and i'm sure the reason that Moore got KO'd is because he caught the the thumb right in the temple.

Wow, I don't know what kind of gloves you played with, but if I was getting pummeled I'd give anything for the guy to leave his glove on.

Originally posted by duph
20+ years, never. Not once. Where I grew up that got you suspended for at least a game.

edit: Yeah, there were a few players I saw in youth/hs leagues that would do that. They'd get punished, thaen do it again. 9 times out of 10 it was because they were frustrated at being such shitty hockey players.

I dont know where you grew up, but I see this type of stuff all the time. It would probably take me both hands to count the number of games I've been in where somebody has been taken off on a stretcher. Is this something I'm proud of? Fuck no. But from what I've seen, the act of what Bertuzzi did wasn't the worst thing I've ever seen, but the consequence was pretty horrible. Maybe I'm just more de-sensitized to all of this stuff.

I'd ask the people who are referring to Bertuzzi as a "jerk and a bully" and saying he should be banned for life never to come watch a small town junior hockey game in Saskatchewan, Alberta, or BC. You'll see some great skill, but you'll also see many things that you don't like.

Hockey is a great game, and my favorite sport to watch (the most exciting in my opinion), and you're right, the game hasn't changed much in violence, but now it seems like all of a sudden people are realizing that it is sometimes a violent sport.

It doesn't really matter what we say now anyway, he's been suspended for injuring another player, and that's that. I hope this makes sense because I'm pretty drunk right now.

[Canuk]

Originally posted by Eldo
Canuk seems to be mostly alone in defending the guy, so I asked my sportswriter buddy who has covered the NHL for years for an assessment of Bertuzzi as a person, and not just a pro hockey player.

His reply: "A jerk and a bully."

The NHL is full of guys for whom this incident would have been totally out of character. But it doesn't sound like Bertuzzi is one of them.

Eldo - I'm not defending the action - I'm just standing up to everyone who seems to think that Bertuzzi stepped on the ice that night with the intent to end this kids career.

And in response to your sportswriter buddy - no surprize that he doesn't like Bert, no sportswriter does because he isn't a media bitch.

[Canuk]

Originally posted by seldon
And I think the primary criteria should be intention to injure. If I'm just pushing from behind on a loose ball to intimidate a kid, fine, but if I'm slamming him into the ground and trying to break his knees, then it crosses over into an area where I personally should be liable for that.

Seldon - you are seriously trying to tell me that you can watch an act, and determine intent from that act? Result does not always indicate intent. It I am driving my car and swerve to miss an animal, and loose control and crash into your car, was my intent to hit your car? No. It was a result of an action that I took.

Duph - fanstasic point on the state of the game. The media has really taken notice of violent incidents in hockey, and they have helped create the preception that it is a barbaric game.

When was the last time anyone talked about Latrell Spreewell choking P.J. Carlissimo? Every sport has had a player - or players - that have lost it in the heat of the moment.

[Eldo]

Originally posted by Canuk
...in response to your sportswriter buddy - no surprize that he doesn't like Bert, no sportswriter does because he isn't a media bitch.

No, there are lots of players who are not "media bitches" but are still highly thought of by the writers who cover the NHL (and hockey fans who read the papers).

Apparently Bertuzzi really is a jerk and a bully.

(Let me guess, you have him in a hockey pool. )

[Canuk]

Originally posted by Eldo
No, there are lots of players who are not "media bitches" but are still highly thought of by the writers who cover the NHL (and hockey fans who read the papers).

Apparently Bertuzzi really is a jerk and a bully.

(Let me guess, you have him in a hockey pool. )

Nope - not in the hockey pool. Not even a particularly big fan of the Canuck's. Just a hockey fan.

Bert is a big, strong, physical player. He thrives on emotion, and this time emotion got the best of him.

[duph]

Well I'm not one of those who think he should be banned for life. I do think it's right that he's being punished harshly. Of course he didn't intend to nearly kill the guy, but the fact remains he almost did. What he did was thoughtless, reckless and dangerous.

Maybe the stiff punishment will help keep him and others in check when emotions start boiling over in the future. I hope so. And hopefully Moore's current state will serve as a reminder to players that their opponents are human, and human life is fragile.

There will be more cheap shots in the future; hopefully they'll be a bit more 'calculated' as to what the possible concquences will be. Remember Travis Roy? Checked from behind head first into the boards, paralyzed for life. Yeah, shit happens, but it can be minimized with a little more care.

[fridge]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...im&id=1757143#

I don't know if this guy is Canadian or not, but this is one of the reasons why I refuse to listen to American hockey announcers.

When me and my brother have played down in the States, there's way too much stickwork, because there is no fear of retaliation. Maybe we're all just greasy thugs.

[duph]

You're right fridge, that guy basically said that canadians are what's wrong with hockey. Totally absurd.

Ironic about your experience against US teams. The teams we played in Quebec were dirtier with their sticks than any other teams we played. It's probably more specific to region than which side of the border a team is from.

[fridge]

Originally posted by duph
Ironic about your experience against US teams. The teams we played in Quebec were dirtier with their sticks than any other teams we played. It's probably more specific to region than which side of the border a team is from.

I know exactly what you mean, Quebec players actually are super dirty. When they played here they would get everyone so riled up with their antics, and then you'd go to hit them and they'd basically lay down on the ice to avoid a body check. Its funny now when I look back at it.

[el_jefe]

uum ok, i'll weigh in on this one.

i think it's right that bertuzzi is out for the rest of the season and the playoffs. its only fair given the ferocity of the hit he laid down - even if the resulting injury wasn't "intentional".

furthermore, i think the NHL should reserve the right to ban bertuzzi from NHL play for the rest of his life IF - and only if - the injuries to moore prove to be career ending. that would send a message to all players that anyone who lays down a potentially career ending hit like bertuzzi's runs the risk of ending their OWN career...

game on!

[Canuk]

Originally posted by fridge
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...im&id=1757143#

I don't know if this guy is Canadian or not, but this is one of the reasons why I refuse to listen to American hockey announcers.

When me and my brother have played down in the States, there's way too much stickwork, because there is no fear of retaliation. Maybe we're all just greasy thugs.

Jim Kelly is a douchebag. Plain and simple. If he was going to write a column on violence in hockey, you need to include Gary Suter's hit on Paul Karya in 1998. But rather than get to the heat of the matter, he chooses to villify Canadian hockey players.

Way to throw around a bunch of stats, Jim. Of course you are going to be able to prove that the Canadians are the dirty ones. Canadians have always - and will most likely always - make up the majority of the players in the NHL. Way to prove your point. No talk about 'can openers' or any other such move popularized by Europeans. What about the Havlat incident a few weeks ago? Way to omit those.

There are going to be dumb-asses in every culture, country, and walk of life, but this guys article is a crock of biased horse shit.