How NOT to do a swiftwater rescue (video from Spokane River)

[Conundrum]

Summit,

It is great to see someone on this thread with a some common sense.

If all the rest of you idiots want to believe what you saw on the news then by all means do so. Just shows your ignorance.

If you are interested in commenting on something you have no idea about, I hope you read this. It might take a little effort on your part to read.

The water was runnning at 21000 cfs, normal summer run is 1200 cfs. This women was wearing blue jeans a lite spring jacket and she was in a small blow up raft, yes the ine in the footage. Her core temp at the hospital 20 minutes after we got her out of the water was 89.5. Gee do you think she could have held on to a rope if we cound have gotten one to her.

First of all the lady was in the water for approx 30min. We knew she was hypothermic already. The water is in the low 40's. From the time we got on scene till the victim was out of the water was approx. 10 min. We did not send the small raft out. That was the raft the victim was rafting the river in and it was next to her caught in an eddie. We thought we might be able to get her into the raft and pull them both back to shore. As no boat was available and we knew we needed to get her out of the water FAST. No we could not wait. See above temp. It turned out the raft was to deflated to use. Our next option was the kayak. The person in the kayak is an expert in kayak and we were going to try and pull them both in using that. A pl;ay boat not the best option, however an option no the less. The person in the kayak was tethered to the rope (by live bait) if you do not know what that is look it up. Just as expected, did in fact flip and could not roll due to the rope being pulled tight by the upstream current in the eddie. He did a wet exit, gave me an okay sign, did you se that? approached the victim and took hold of her. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ANY OF YOU SO CALLED EXPERTS COMPLETE A ROLL TETHERED TO A TIGHT LINE IN A CURRNT MAKING IT TIGHTER. TRY IT THEN GET BACK TO ME. The person in the kayak is a current Life Guard Cert. He is an excellent swimmer and life guard. A cross chest carry may have been an option, or being faced downstream too, however she did not go under the water, our rescuer chose to do a front carry, his call at that point. He did not pull the women into the water, he talked her into the water and then we on shore pulled them both in. Our safety swimmer was next to me in case he needed to go. SUITED UP AND READY TO GO.

Once she got to shore, by floating her over, she was turned over to medics who transported her the hospital where she stayed over night.


1. I agree 30 min is way to long. I addressed that already. From time on scene till in medics hands 10 mins. Not to long.
2. We had our safety on shore with us and ready to go out if needed. We have NEVER had a serious injury nor death in all the rescues we have done.
3. We do not have any inflatable's on our team except a zodiac and we have used that many times, very successfully. as far as
a kayak, depends on how it is use and the experience of the operator.
4. When possible, I agree have the person turn away. This being if she can understand and comprehend what you are saying.
Also she was perched on a log that if she tried to move she could have fallen in on the other side of the log and become a bigger problem as this was a strainer and there were two more up stream of this..
5. The medics gaurney was approx ten feet from shore. This is way she was lifted this way.

I stand by what our team did and what medics did too. It was a successful save and no one got hurt.

Maybe something else the media failed to mention. The county swift water and dive team is a volunteer group of very dedicated folks you give freely of their time for these situations. Sometimes our responses do take a little longer than we would like. However that is a fact of life we have to live with. There are two paid people myself and my partner. Our entire team is swiftwater trained and we have NEVER had any serious injuries or deaths.
GET ALL THE INFO BEFORE YOU COMMENT ON HOW OR WHY SOMETHING IS DONE.

Someone made mention of some of the rescuers were in turn out. Yes they were. Why did you not make mention that they ALL had the PFD's on too. If your so damn good at catching the so-called bad then check for the good too.

I will be waiting to hear from all you great rescuers that NEVER make any minor mistakes. Bottom line we saved her live, she is alive due to our efforts and NO ONE got hurt. Can you all say that all the time.

Thanks for your response but lets take this chance to learn some things. Before we get into that though, thank you and your crew for volunteering. And yes, I did see the kayaker give the "I'm ok".

1-If you expected him to flip, why not just do a live bait rescue without the kayak?

2-If he was an expert kayaker, why did he pull his head out of the water on all roll attempts? With his technique, he wouldn't be able to roll not tethered to anything much less in the situation he was in.

3-If you had time to talk to the victim, why did you have them exit the strainer upstream (you can very easily see that when she is in the water, she is being pushed into danger, she is even hit by a passing log)? Why did you try to use the raft as a transport upstream of the strainer? There was an eddy right behind it that would have made things a lot safer and easier. It was just dumb luck that there wasn't anything from the strainer underneath the water she didn't get caught on. You say there were two strainers upstream...who cares, you need to worry about what's downstream. She exited on the upstream side of what she was sitting on.

4-Was there someone downstream with a rope and someone upstream warning others?

A+ on saving a life though.

[Tye 1on]

Summit,

It is great to see someone on this thread with a some common sense.

If all the rest of you idiots want to believe what you saw on the news then by all means do so. Just shows your ignorance.

If you are interested in commenting on something you have no idea about, I hope you read this. It might take a little effort on your part to read.

The water was runnning at 21000 cfs, normal summer run is 1200 cfs. This women was wearing blue jeans a lite spring jacket and she was in a small blow up raft, yes the ine in the footage. Her core temp at the hospital 20 minutes after we got her out of the water was 89.5. Gee do you think she could have held on to a rope if we cound have gotten one to her.

First of all the lady was in the water for approx 30min. We knew she was hypothermic already. The water is in the low 40's. From the time we got on scene till the victim was out of the water was approx. 10 min. We did not send the small raft out. That was the raft the victim was rafting the river in and it was next to her caught in an eddie. We thought we might be able to get her into the raft and pull them both back to shore. As no boat was available and we knew we needed to get her out of the water FAST. No we could not wait. See above temp. It turned out the raft was to deflated to use. Our next option was the kayak. The person in the kayak is an expert in kayak and we were going to try and pull them both in using that. A pl;ay boat not the best option, however an option no the less. The person in the kayak was tethered to the rope (by live bait) if you do not know what that is look it up. Just as expected, did in fact flip and could not roll due to the rope being pulled tight by the upstream current in the eddie. He did a wet exit, gave me an okay sign, did you se that? approached the victim and took hold of her. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ANY OF YOU SO CALLED EXPERTS COMPLETE A ROLL TETHERED TO A TIGHT LINE IN A CURRNT MAKING IT TIGHTER. TRY IT THEN GET BACK TO ME. The person in the kayak is a current Life Guard Cert. He is an excellent swimmer and life guard. A cross chest carry may have been an option, or being faced downstream too, however she did not go under the water, our rescuer chose to do a front carry, his call at that point. He did not pull the women into the water, he talked her into the water and then we on shore pulled them both in. Our safety swimmer was next to me in case he needed to go. SUITED UP AND READY TO GO.

Once she got to shore, by floating her over, she was turned over to medics who transported her the hospital where she stayed over night.


1. I agree 30 min is way to long. I addressed that already. From time on scene till in medics hands 10 mins. Not to long.
2. We had our safety on shore with us and ready to go out if needed. We have NEVER had a serious injury nor death in all the rescues we have done.
3. We do not have any inflatable's on our team except a zodiac and we have used that many times, very successfully. as far as
a kayak, depends on how it is use and the experience of the operator.
4. When possible, I agree have the person turn away. This being if she can understand and comprehend what you are saying.
Also she was perched on a log that if she tried to move she could have fallen in on the other side of the log and become a bigger problem as this was a strainer and there were two more up stream of this..
5. The medics gaurney was approx ten feet from shore. This is way she was lifted this way.

I stand by what our team did and what medics did too. It was a successful save and no one got hurt.

Maybe something else the media failed to mention. The county swift water and dive team is a volunteer group of very dedicated folks you give freely of their time for these situations. Sometimes our responses do take a little longer than we would like. However that is a fact of life we have to live with. There are two paid people myself and my partner. Our entire team is swiftwater trained and we have NEVER had any serious injuries or deaths.
GET ALL THE INFO BEFORE YOU COMMENT ON HOW OR WHY SOMETHING IS DONE.

Someone made mention of some of the rescuers were in turn out. Yes they were. Why did you not make mention that they ALL had the PFD's on too. If your so damn good at catching the so-called bad then check for the good too.

I will be waiting to hear from all you great rescuers that NEVER make any minor mistakes. Bottom line we saved her live, she is alive due to our efforts and NO ONE got hurt. Can you all say that all the time.

Hey pal, mellow out. First, kudos for not creating more victims, and getting her out. And nobody here was throwing any stones at volunteers with SAR teams, in fact, many of us are on teams as well.

Now, you're off on a few of the details. Your kayaker was lucky. A correct and safe 'live bait' rescue has the rope connected to the quick release, not the grab loop. If things had gone bad, he could have been entrapped by that rope with no way to release it. Didn't see a knife either, but, as you say, it's tough enough trying a roll with a rope around you, let alone trying to cut a line. Like was mentioned, his technique was lacking as he kept pulling his head out. Not saying i wouldn't have made the same mistake under the conditions.

There were at least two people down there without pfd's, one in turnouts, one in civilian clothes. Great to have a rescue swimmer, did they have any tools, like a boogie board? If not, expecting them to swim out, grab somebody with their hands, and swim back in that flow of water isn't a great plan.

Yes, we believe what we see on video. We all learn from mistakes, both ours and others, and i bet your team does too. Nobody else got hurt, and you very likely saved her life. That is unquestionably commendable. Welcome to the board, you'll find, if you choose to stick around, that there is an incredible concentration of skilled skiers/boaters/bikers etc that are a lot of fun to learn from.

[RootSkier]

Jumpman just PM'd me to assure me that the line was attached to the D ring on the rescue harness.

[Conundrum]

That's civil of him.

He just assured me I was an idiot. Nothing I haven't been accused of before.

[RootSkier]

I think we all know who the idiot is.

[Tye 1on]

Jumpman just PM'd me to assure me that the line was attached to the D ring on the rescue harness.

I don't think so, not that it really matters. The rope clearly wraps around the paddler, below the D ring, and on his 1st and 2nd roll attempts you can clearly see it attached to either his spray skirt or the boat.

I traded a couple PM's with the jumpdude too, and my impression is mainly that he's pretty defensive, and thinks we didn't/don't have the full story, which is true, but the video shows what it shows. I don't think he'd claim this rescue went picture perfect, but they did accomplish a life saved, with no additional injuries, and there is no way we could have seen the up and downstream safety that was set from the perspective of the video.

All i know is i'll still take Summit on a rescue team any day.

[Lurch]

blah blah blah

Get over yourself that person in that kayak was no expert boater. He had a rescue vest on but tied the line to his spray skirt! No one trained in river rescue or how to boat even class II would do that.

I have rolled with a line on my RESCUE VEST, had the people on shore KNOWN what they were doing they would have given him slack in the line and he could have rolled IF he knows how.

[leroy jenkins]

That's civil of him.

He just assured me I was an idiot. Nothing I haven't been accused of before.

He assured me of that as well.

[Jumpman]

If the rope was attached to either the skirt or the boat, please explain to me how we were able to pull him and the victim to shore. It was attached to the live bait. It may have appeared to be tied to the boat cuz of the rolls but it was noot. Non of us are that stupid.

[Jumpman]

Your right. Had we realized a little slack would have help we would have given it to him before he bailed. We learned on that one. Thats what we do. We learn.

[Jumpman]

Hey pal, mellow out. First, kudos for not creating more victims, and getting her out. And nobody here was throwing any stones at volunteers with SAR teams, in fact, many of us are on teams as well.

Now, you're off on a few of the details. Your kayaker was lucky. A correct and safe 'live bait' rescue has the rope connected to the quick release, not the grab loop. If things had gone bad, he could have been entrapped by that rope with no way to release it. Didn't see a knife either, but, as you say, it's tough enough trying a roll with a rope around you, let alone trying to cut a line. Like was mentioned, his technique was lacking as he kept pulling his head out. Not saying i wouldn't have made the same mistake under the conditions.

There were at least two people down there without pfd's, one in turnouts, one in civilian clothes. Great to have a rescue swimmer, did they have any tools, like a boogie board? If not, expecting them to swim out, grab somebody with their hands, and swim back in that flow of water isn't a great plan.

Yes, we believe what we see on video. We all learn from mistakes, both ours and others, and i bet your team does too. Nobody else got hurt, and you very likely saved her life. That is unquestionably commendable. Welcome to the board, you'll find, if you choose to stick around, that there is an incredible concentration of skilled skiers/boaters/bikers etc that are a lot of fun to learn from.

Again, the line was attached to his live bait. the two people without PFD's. One was a fire guy. I do not control them. His boss let him there. We have a standing rule, if your within 10 feet of the water you better have a PFD. Second the civilian, look closely. She has on an inflatable. She was the second perosn that almost went with the lady we got. She was not with us.

[summit]

Thank you very much for replying to this thread Jumpman. None of us were there. The video is indisputable but you added some context. The information clears up many questions such as how the patient and the raft got there (wow what was the victim thinking!) and why the rescue team felt time was critical. I am also glad to hear you had a backup swimmer. 30min from page to onscene & operational is FAST for a volunteer team!

However, remember that many posting on this board and in this thread are volunteer rescuers or very experienced river rats themselves. I have to say that some of your comments left me with some more questions and criticisms:

Did you have upstream and downstream spotters?

This women was wearing blue jeans a lite spring jacket and she was in a small blow up raft, yes the ine in the footage. Her core temp at the hospital 20 minutes after we got her out of the water was 89.5.

Stage II hypothermia.. but as far as patient capacity that can mean many things. It all depends on the patient... and it wasn't my patient and I wasn't there. On the other hand, the patient was presumably warmer prior to her final immersion...

I do know that if her temp was that low, ensuring gentle patient movements once on shore is critical to patient outcome because rough movement can put the patient into VF or another lethal arrythmia! Having the patient moving themselves, or moving roughly, is NOT indicated once they are safely on shore. The EMS crew should have known this. SRTs should know this too.

<sarcasm>Gee do you think she could have held on to a rope if we cound have gotten one to her</sarcasm> ... That was the raft the victim was rafting the river in and it was next to her caught in an eddie. We thought we might be able to get her into the raft and pull them both back to shore ... Our next option was the kayak.

I am confused. If as you say she was too uncoordinated to hold onto a rope, then what on earth was the thought process behind having the patient try to get herself into the raft (that she had previously fallen out of) or having the patient jump into the river and hold onto a kayak?

To repeat the question: If you thought the patient could do those things, then the patient would have been able to grab a rope. If you thought the patient could not hold the rope, why would you imagine she could do those tasks?

If a patient is hypothermic or injured to the point where they cannot hold onto a rope, then rescue requires positive physical contact between a rescuer and the victim.

Just as expected, did in fact flip and could not roll due to the rope being pulled tight by the upstream current in the eddie. He did a wet exit, gave me an okay sign, did you se that? approached the victim and took hold of her.

I see no problem with that statement or course of action except the words "JUST AS EXPECTED." If you thought it was likely he would flip and be unable to right, why use a kayak? Having a roped rescuer wet exit the kayak... that is not as good a scenario as sending a rescue swimmer to begin with. Again, had the patient gone downstream/strained while that kayaker was trying to roll/exit...

We have a standing rule, if your within 10 feet of the water you better have a PFD.

PFDs are good. But you must follow the other rules for swiftwater PPE:

HELMETS!
No turnout gear on swiftwater calls. Ever.
Thermal protection is a must if you have 40F water.

I will be waiting to hear from all you great rescuers that NEVER make any minor mistakes. Bottom line we saved her live, she is alive due to our efforts and NO ONE got hurt. Can you all say that all the time.

I wish all the victims always lived.

You guys did what mattered most. You saved her life and there were no additional victims.

All teams make minor mistakes. Sometimes minor mistakes aren't major mistakes due to luck. We shouldn't be afraid of examining mistakes, big or small, so they are not repeated with consequences.

[iceman]

Summit, I must say that that was a very well-considered and well-spoken post.

[AsheanMT]

For the record.....Yes I am swiftwater rescue certified and No I did not watch all of that video. I couldn't watch it......I made it to the rescuer flipping over his kayak and thinking he can roll it while attached to a line. That video was to painful to watch. I would like to say however that I'm sure that raft was fully inflated with nice hot air and as it spent some time in the river the air got cold thereby decreasing its pressure.

[FreakofSnow]

Wow and wow, I'll be saving this video to show at our dept SWR class this spring.....what not to do.

[RootSkier]

I just watched it again. I call 100&#37; bullshit on Jumpmans claim that the line is attached to the quick release mechanism of the kayakers PFD.

I have a feeling someone doesn't understand the point of a rescue vest.

[summit]

I haven't been able to get the vid to play anymore... keeps locking up after the ad...

[FreakofSnow]

I just watched it again. I call 100% bullshit on Jumpmans claim that the line is attached to the quick release mechanism of the kayakers PFD.

I have a feeling someone doesn't understand the point of a rescue vest.

Totally agreed, I don't think the quick release would hold with that amount of force i.e. pulling 2 people in

[wannabe]

Jumpman,

Sorry but I also am SRT certified with years of river experience.

Your kayaker is no way an expert boater maybe in his head but truly not an expert. The type of boat he used is not in any way designed for what he tried to do, it is designed to flip and flop and do fun things, not carry a second person on the bow. Kayaks do have some great uses in swift water rescues but boogie boards are better for getting to and securing you patient. Remember once you have made physical contact you can not lose the patient you are then liable. So make sure when you decide to GO make it count.

He ended up prolonging the rescue when he swam as well as put the patient in the water upstream of a strainer. Since time was of the essence do to hypothermia you would have been much better sending in a swimmer and doing a live bait rescue but from the downstream side of the strainer, so as to not put the patient in more danger.

Yes I have made mistakes in rescues, we all have. It is not so much what mistake you make but how you react and learn from it. You did save that ladies life and not cause any other injuries and that is a job well done, but it could have been done in a safer and quicker way.

Hopefully you and your team can take some of this critsicm and learn from it. When I was a volunteer after every call we had a critique of the incident and we learned from each call.

Thanks for doing the job that you do.
Danny

[teledave]

Jumpman, chill out with PM's. I clearly stated that I didn't know anything about swiftwater rescue and the fact that I'm an idiot because I'm from TN was established years ago.

Summit, I always learn something from every one of your rescue thread responses regardless of the situation. If I or any of my crew is every in a situation that requires an outdoor rescue I hope there is somebody in charge of the situation that is as competent as you seem to be. Moreover, just reading some of the things you post helps me to recognize situations to stay out of so that a rescue isn't required.



If i had a nickel for every noob that has "called me out" because of my location.......

[ridinshockgun]

I think we need to refer the kayaker in that video to the "Got my roll" thread over on the kayak forum.

[backcountry1pr]

man, freaking rookies.

[Tye 1on]

Totally agreed, I don't think the quick release would hold with that amount of force i.e. pulling 2 people in

Actually a properly used quick release would. The webbing that the ring is on is first threaded through a flat plate metal D-ring sorta thing. [hard to describe, sorry]. That's in a big warning that comes with all rescue vests, not to just thread the webbing into the QR, but to go thru this flat D-ring thing first. Not doing that, you're right, no way it would hold 2 swimmers in current...

And summit, thanks again for a good analysis. And for reminding me of that old adage....throw, row....then...go.

[Lurch]

I whish I could screen capture the video but it appears to be copy protected. Watch the video again when he gets rolled at 01:44 into the video you can clearly see the rope is attached to the spray skirt. At other parts of the video you can see the ring on the back that he should be tied into is not being used. My guess is the rope or skirt wrapped around him when he started to get pulled up river. Him and the person being rescued are very luck the skirt held.

If the rope was attached to either the skirt or the boat, please explain to me how we were able to pull him and the victim to shore. It was attached to the live bait. It may have appeared to be tied to the boat cuz of the rolls but it was noot. Non of us are that stupid.

[Tye 1on]

I whish I could screen capture the video but it appears to be copy protected. Watch the video again when he gets rolled at 01:44 into the video you can clearly see the rope is attached to the spray skirt. At other parts of the video you can see the ring on the back that he should be tied into is not being used. My guess is the rope or skirt wrapped around him when he started to get pulled up river. Him and the person being rescued are very luck the skirt held.

Yup, but like has been said, hopefully a learning experience...And I believe, from PM's, that they had downstream safety and a safety swimmer set, so they potentially could have brought them both in even if the skirt/rope had failed.

I would have been psyched to see knives available as well, given the use of ropes, but perhaps people were equipped with them and it just wasn't obvious.