How NOT to do a swiftwater rescue (video from Spokane River)

**Jumpman** · 04-12-2007, 03:17 PM

The rope was not tied to the boat. I just talked with the guys who set it up. The beaner was attached to the front of the kayaker and went thru the skirt. He did this because the initial plan was if he got the women in the raft he was going to clip the beaner to the raft so we could pull her to us. As you saw that did not quite happen.

Another thing to remember. This eddie was very strong and very large. 100 yards min. When you saw the current taking the log and the victim, they were going upstream, not downstream. Just on the otherside, which we discussed taking her out was another strainer. The logs and debris you saw leaving where she was just went to the next strainer, UPSTREAM, the same place she would have been headed to. If we took her out on the other side she to would have gone back upstream into the next strainer. Plus there was no way to get the rope over to that side.

So, Here is a questioin for you all. Knowing now that the water you see in the video is going upstream, and there is another strainer just up stream of that, what side would you take her out on? And why.

**Tye 1on** · 04-12-2007, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Jumpman

The rope was not tied to the boat. I just talked with the guys who set it up. The beaner was attached to the front of the kayaker and went thru the skirt. He did this because the initial plan was if he got the women in the raft he was going to clip the beaner to the raft so we could pull her to us. As you saw that did not quite happen.

Another thing to remember. This eddie was very strong and very large. 100 yards min. When you saw the current taking the log and the victim, they were going upstream, not downstream. Just on the otherside, which we discussed taking her out was another strainer. The logs and debris you saw leaving where she was just went to the next strainer, UPSTREAM, the same place she would have been headed to. If we took her out on the other side she to would have gone back upstream into the next strainer. Plus there was no way to get the rope over to that side.

So, Here is a questioin for you all. Knowing now that the water you see in the video is going upstream, and there is another strainer just up stream of that, what side would you take her out on? And why.

Ah, clipped to the front, now that makes more sense. Kinda. I'm guessing it was hooked to the front of the 2" webbing that the ring goes thru on the back, so he did have some kind of quick release if he had needed it.

I don't know enough to 2nd guess your location question. Where you got her out was pretty close, from her to shore, could have been the best. And props on the up and downstream safety. My only thoughts to chew on would be on whether throwing her a rope, or rope with a horseshoe, may have been just as effective with less risk; whether a pole would have accomplished that; and whether your team might explore other tools like boogie boards. Again, nice job in the big picture, and thanks for turning this back toward a productive discussion for us all to learn from!

**Jumpman** · 04-12-2007, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tye 1on

Ah, clipped to the front, now that makes more sense. Kinda. I'm guessing it was hooked to the front of the 2" webbing that the ring goes thru on the back, so he did have some kind of quick release if he had needed it.

I don't know enough to 2nd guess your location question. Where you got her out was pretty close, from her to shore, could have been the best. And props on the up and downstream safety. My only thoughts to chew on would be on whether throwing her a rope, or rope with a horseshoe, may have been just as effective with less risk; whether a pole would have accomplished that; and whether your team might explore other tools like boogie boards. Again, nice job in the big picture, and thanks for turning this back toward a productive discussion for us all to learn from!

We only use live bait. And yes contrary to popular belief we do know how to use them. It was on the webbing. A pole was out of the question. It was approx. 75 to 100 feet from her to us. Maybe a throw bag could have worked but that is quite a ways out for accuracy. Still looking for somer other answers though. Thanks for the answer.

**mcsquared** · 04-12-2007, 04:04 PM

That rope was clipped to the spray skirt, not any part of the rescue harness. You can see it clearly, when he is trying to roll, and towards the end when they are getting out of the water (around the 3:30ish mark).

**Jumpman** · 04-12-2007, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by mcsquared

That rope was clipped to the spray skirt, not any part of the rescue harness. You can see it clearly, when he is trying to roll, and towards the end when they are getting out of the water (around the 3:30ish mark).

You can believe what you want. Just remember we pulled two people in against the current......... I don't think the skirt would have held. But believe what you want.

**mcsquared** · 04-12-2007, 04:16 PM

The BOING-springy factor of the spray skirt was probably the only thing that kept it from breaking. Those handles are pretty strong, and the current wasn't that swift. I once swam and got the handle on my spray skirt wedged in between 2 rocks and I wished it wasn't as strong as it was. That was fun.

**ridinshockgun** · 04-12-2007, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Jumpman

You can believe what you want. Just remember we pulled two people in against the current......... I don't think the skirt would have held. But believe what you want.

The skirt would hold.

**Lurch** · 04-12-2007, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Jumpman

The rope was not tied to the boat. I just talked with the guys who set it up. The beaner was attached to the front of the kayaker and went thru the skirt. He did this because the initial plan was if he got the women in the raft he was going to clip the beaner to the raft so we could pull her to us. As you saw that did not quite happen.

Another thing to remember. This eddie was very strong and very large. 100 yards min. When you saw the current taking the log and the victim, they were going upstream, not downstream. Just on the otherside, which we discussed taking her out was another strainer. The logs and debris you saw leaving where she was just went to the next strainer, UPSTREAM, the same place she would have been headed to. If we took her out on the other side she to would have gone back upstream into the next strainer. Plus there was no way to get the rope over to that side.

So, Here is a questioin for you all. Knowing now that the water you see in the video is going upstream, and there is another strainer just up stream of that, what side would you take her out on? And why.

I guess it could have very easily been run through the spray skirt to the webbing on the front of his jaket. I just don't see why he would not use the ring on the back. It's not hard to reach and if he has to swim he is hooked in the ideal location.

That must be one hell of an eddy I've only been in one that meets the size you are describing with that kind of power. I would not have wanted to get near that strainer with a playboat or on live bait. But given your situation I would have went for the throw rope then live bait with two lines. One at 45 degrees to the victim and the other at almost 90 degrees. That way the swimmer could be lowered into place then backed up a few feet and pulled directly to shore.

Talking about these things after the fact is good for everyone. As well as practicing the basics over and over again. I've been in life or death rescue situation with a friend under a submerged log directly in the middle of a river. There is no time to think and you are unable to think clearly, it's all instinct at that moment.

**Jumpman** · 04-12-2007, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by ridinshockgun

The skirt would hold.

I just review the tape again closer this time. At 1.48 I stopped the tape. You can clearly see that the rope is beanered to the skirt. I WILL have a talk with the two that set this up and it will not happen again. See everyone can learn, as long as you do. Thanks for picking up on that. I had just checked with the kaykaer this a.m. and he told me it was beanered to his webbing thru the skirt loop. NOT SO.

**RootSkier** · 04-12-2007, 05:13 PM

Very interesting.

Jumpman, first, let me say, props to you both for rescuing her and then for sticking it out and arguing with a bunch of internet know-it-alls.

I think his attachment point was the very first thing many of us saw when we watched the video. That and the playboat. I am not sure what other gear you had at your disposal...what is the story with the boat? Does your group own it for SWR or is it somebody's own boat?

Second, your explanation that we are actually looking at an eddy makes sense. I realize there was limited time and tools on hand.

In retrospect, if I was there, with the gear you had, I probably would have allowed myself to be live baited (with the d ring on my back being the attachment point) down and just hauled her off. Trying to have a non-boater hold onto a playboat or get into a deflated raft were the two major flaws I saw.

Again, she is alive, good work.

Out of curiousity, how did you find this thread? There have been discussions at boatertalk, too.

**Jumpman** · 04-12-2007, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by RootSkier

Very interesting.

Jumpman, first, let me say, props to you both for rescuing her and then for sticking it out and arguing with a bunch of internet know-it-alls.

I think his attachment point was the very first thing many of us saw when we watched the video. That and the playboat. I am not sure what other gear you had at your disposal...what is the story with the boat? Does your group own it for SWR or is it somebody's own boat?

Second, your explanation that we are actually looking at an eddy makes sense. I realize there was limited time and tools on hand.

In retrospect, if I was there, with the gear you had, I probably would have allowed myself to be live baited (with the d ring on my back being the attachment point) down and just hauled her off. Trying to have a non-boater hold onto a playboat or get into a deflated raft were the two major flaws I saw.

Again, she is alive, good work.

Out of curiousity, how did you find this thread? There have been discussions at boatertalk, too.

Someone told me about it. Then just checked it out. Saw boatertalk too but there seemed to be more here. Been both places.

The boat is privately owned by the guy using it. I wanted him to use mine which is an 8.5 preception, better suited for this work, I know. He thought he was better suited and comfortable using his. I don't think we will be doing that again. Maybe mine tho. we talked about that today and he agreed mine would have been a better choice. We also have a zodiac, but this time we had no time to get it to this location. It was still at least 20 to 25 out.

The raft was an after thought seeing we had no other boat there. We knew it was deflated. Just not by how much. I would always like to keep my rescurers out of the water if possible. Sometimes I know it is not. We did the reach, throw, row, go. However????? We have always, and always will learn from our mistakes and from others. I know I souonded like an asshole at first. I do get very defensive when I hear and see my volunteers getting eating alive for trying to do their job. But like I try and teach them, keep mouth closed until we have all the info to make our decisions or comments. If I offended anyone on this, I apolize but that is just me. And yes I was the "INCOMPETENCE IN CHARGE".

**iceman** · 04-12-2007, 06:45 PM

Everybody's still alive, just live and learn for the next time is all.

I still can't see the video because it crashes my computer for some reason, but all's well that ends well, I guess.

Don't get complacent, please.

**bliss-stick** · 04-12-2007, 11:00 PM

I turned jumpman onto this thread. I am the president of the local kayak club here in Spokane and area rep. for Bliss-Stick. After seeing the footage I contacted jumpman 1st to on behalf of the club offer his "kayaker" a chance to take a swiftwater rescue clinic from Mick Hopkinson at the end of June and second as Bliss-Stick rep. offer them a creeker at a great deal. What I got was a very defensive stone wall. As it seemed no use in arguing I said thanks for returning my call and that he should check out this site. Now that things have seemed to soften I hope he will contact the club and we all as a community can work on fixing the problems.

Thanks for airing this issue

Bliss-Stick

G · 04-13-2007, 12:26 AM

Private Message from jumpman:

You just showed me how stupid you really are. I will put his ability up against your anytime day of night.

heh.

Thank you for the worthwhile input Jumpman.

You're right, that really was an above average rescue.

**Jumpman** · 04-14-2007, 06:36 PM

GEOFF

Instead aof a smart ass comment how bout an answer to the above. Or are you just good for the smart ass comments.

**summit** · 04-14-2007, 09:05 PM

Jumpman I'd like to see you reply to questions and criticisms of my last post

**wannabe** · 04-14-2007, 10:02 PM

Jumpman,

Thanks for clarifying about the strainer downstream.

Without being there and seeing the distance to the other strainers, I would still go with my initial assumption to do a live bait retrieval.

With a strainer upstream in the eddy and another down stream I would have tried a telfer(sp) lower to the victim to control my swimmer.

The kayak in that instance would have been useful to get a small diameter rope across the river and then pull the larger rope across to set up for this. With training this system can be set up rather quickly, we used to train with this on low heads. The one thing that might prevent this of course is the width of the river and what your resources are, i.e. not enough rope.

If I was in your position I would definitely talk to the bliss tek rep and take him up on the creek boat offer as well as possibly the SRT classes. The right tools can make all the differences.

Another great tool maybe not so much in this circumstance are the use of boogie boards.

**Jumpman** · 04-14-2007, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Summit

Thank you very much for replying to this thread Jumpman. None of us were there. The video is indisputable but you added some context. The information clears up many questions such as how the patient and the raft got there (wow what was the victim thinking!) and why the rescue team felt time was critical. I am also glad to hear you had a backup swimmer. 30min from page to onscene & operational is FAST for a volunteer team!

However, remember that many posting on this board and in this thread are volunteer rescuers or very experienced river rats themselves. I have to say that some of your comments left me with some more questions and criticisms:

Did you have upstream and downstream spotters?

Stage II hypothermia.. but as far as patient capacity that can mean many things. It all depends on the patient... and it wasn't my patient and I wasn't there. On the other hand, the patient was presumably warmer prior to her final immersion...

I do know that if her temp was that low, ensuring gentle patient movements once on shore is critical to patient outcome because rough movement can put the patient into VF or another lethal arrythmia! Having the patient moving themselves, or moving roughly, is NOT indicated once they are safely on shore. The EMS crew should have known this. SRTs should know this too.

I am confused. If as you say she was too uncoordinated to hold onto a rope, then what on earth was the thought process behind having the patient try to get herself into the raft (that she had previously fallen out of) or having the patient jump into the river and hold onto a kayak?

To repeat the question: If you thought the patient could do those things, then the patient would have been able to grab a rope. If you thought the patient could not hold the rope, why would you imagine she could do those tasks?

If a patient is hypothermic or injured to the point where they cannot hold onto a rope, then rescue requires positive physical contact between a rescuer and the victim.

I see no problem with that statement or course of action except the words "JUST AS EXPECTED." If you thought it was likely he would flip and be unable to right, why use a kayak? Having a roped rescuer wet exit the kayak... that is not as good a scenario as sending a rescue swimmer to begin with. Again, had the patient gone downstream/strained while that kayaker was trying to roll/exit...

PFDs are good. But you must follow the other rules for swiftwater PPE:

HELMETS!
No turnout gear on swiftwater calls. Ever.
Thermal protection is a must if you have 40F water.

I wish all the victims always lived.

You guys did what mattered most. You saved her life and there were no additional victims.

All teams make minor mistakes. Sometimes minor mistakes aren't major mistakes due to luck. We shouldn't be afraid of examining mistakes, big or small, so they are not repeated with consequences.

Summit,

Here you go. Sorry it took me this long to respond. But I am not afraid to respond and admit something were done wrong. Bottom line we won, death lost. Here goes. And I am not being defensive.

Upstram safeties. Yes we had 2 upsterwam and 3 downstream.

I doubt she was warmer, maybe a little. She had only been out of the water for approx 5 min when we arrived. Yes she was put back in, I do not like to have to do that but as yousee we had to. No other boat around and we knew she was hypother. Once she was on shore she was in the hands of medics. I agree she should have been dealt with completly different. I thought that as they dealt with her. I am L.E. She was then being dealt with by medics and Fire. We will be talking with their medic folks about hypothermic people in the very near future.

Trying to get her into the raft was to keep her out of the water. as it turned out not a good idea as she went in anyway. We are not sure how she ended up in the water yet as we still have not talked with her. If you saw her, Idid not feel she was capable of holding on to a rope to be pulled in pluss it was at least 75 to 100 ft toget her a line.

BNecause of the eddie andd the strength of it we figure he would probable have some problems. As i stated before it was my bad as to not give him slack so he could complete his roll. Plus I think my boat would have been a better choice. Se have discussed this and he agreed too.

As I said before, Fire has their own protocol. Are folks do not get near the water without PFD. Helmets are as needed. Not always. Something for us to look at. Thanks.

Turnouts, I agree. However again I have no control over fire. I have seen them on the ice in winter in turnouts withour PFD's. I too shake my head. I hope this answers all your questions. Feel free to recontact me and I will answer. Thanks again for your criquete(SP). At least you gave us one in a contructive manner. Thanks again

**summit** · 04-14-2007, 10:34 PM

I appreciate your answer!

**Sad Santos** · 04-15-2007, 10:41 AM

Without addressing any of the techniques used here, I can only think of two words that come to mind, "gross negligence." These two words are some favorites used by lawyers. The fact that you were able to pull this girl from the water is a miracle. You should be thanking the sweet baby Jesus that you are not having a memorial service for any of your rescuers and a funeral for the victim as well. Saying that death lost is a mistake...you cheated death...this time.

Gross negligence should be a very real concern of yours. I assume you were the I.C. Did you have a safety officer? If you did they might have caught the bad rope attachment or the fact that your "safety dingy" was a dangerous choice. You had better equipment and you chose not to use it (ref. a more stable kayak). You ARE very responsible for the safety of your crew, other rescue workers, bystanders and the victim. You should not allow any other people without the proper equipment near your scene. If they are, establish a safe zone and ask them to go there. If they do not, ask the sheriff deputy, who was on the haul team without any personal protection, to kindly remove them. The fact that you recognize these hazards is good. The fact that you chose to do nothing about it is gross negligence. You don't know what you can't see. That means if you were never taught then you can't recognize. Conversely, if you do know what is safer and chose something else that is a big problem.

**Blurred** · 04-15-2007, 11:48 AM

That was hilarious.
I don't know what was funnier. The impending doom of watching dumbass stroll up to the lady with a half inflated raft(which would have sunk) or seeing him miss his roll several times and then bailing.

I didn't watch the very end, but that water looks like class II at best.

**Jumpman** · 04-15-2007, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by BlurredElevens

That was hilarious.
I don't know what was funnier. The impending doom of watching dumbass stroll up to the lady with a half inflated raft(which would have sunk) or seeing him miss his roll several times and then bailing.

I didn't watch the very end, but that water looks like class II at best.

Good response Blurred Eleven. That was real helpful. Thanks for all your thought, without knowing anything about anyything.

**summit** · 04-15-2007, 06:31 PM

I would still like to hear:

Why was it thought that the victim could get into a raft or hold onto a kayak if she was deemed incapable of grasping a rope?

Sad Santos makes some very good points: You must control your scene for the protection of those in other agencies as well. Around here the Sherrif would kick anyone out if we asked them to. Luckily, the LEO and FFs around here have been trained by the water rescue team in "how not to get yourself killed on a swiftwater scene." Perhaps in conjunction with Bliss-Stick's offer, a 1hr presentation could be put together for other agencies.

**Tye 1on** · 04-16-2007, 08:26 AM

I'm guessing if that there were a bunch of lookey-loos there as well, and that we don't see them in the video, only fire/ems/sar suggests to me that somebody was indeed doing crowd control. Safety officer: always a great idea, harder to accomplish in practice with small teams like this one [under a dozen]. That small, ya, imho, typically don't even get into ICS mode, maybe an ops chief and medical lead, but the rest are involved in the effort.

That Bliss-stick offer is awesome, props! Hope ya check on that jumpster. I would also think a little about other tools, boogie board, duckies, etc.

Now I'm curious, since this thread appears to have taken a bit of a 'lessons learned' twist, [and thanks for your responses], do you think you'd do anything different if you rolled up on a similar scenario tomorrow?

**Blurred** · 04-16-2007, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jumpman

Good response Blurred Eleven. That was real helpful. Thanks for all your thought, without knowing anything about anyything.

edit-

Maybe you and your SAR team should practice a bit before playing hero.
That water is not that swift. Taking a low volume play boat out for the save was a piss poor idea.
You should know these things BEFORE an easy rescue like this one occurs.
Your team should have the proper equipment with them, they clearly didn't.
Then you go on and on about the woman being cold. Duh. Come and speak with a swiftwater team in the mountains where ALL whitewater (not class II) is snow melt. They could teach you guys a thing or two. That was a clown show, sorry.