Economics of snow riding

**tex1230** · 03-20-2007, 07:13 AM

maybe this has been covered before but I didn't find anything in a quick search...

I am a weekend warrior. Not by my own choosing...somebody find me a way to make a similar living in a mountain town and I'll be there tomorrow.

(originally posted on Bomberonline, but I thought I'd seek your opinions as well)

I must be nuts, but I haven't had a season pass in years.

I also haven't had a season rental. Ever.

At what point do these investments become worth it for a "Weekend Warrior"?

I figure without having a rental and pass, I average 20 days a year...some years more, some less...This year, including the coming weekend, I'll be hitting 15 days. With discounts through work and multi-day passes, I figure I average around $45/day for me & Mrs Tex, and the little guy is usually free or close to it (that changes next year as he will be 7 and moves into "junior" rates) - so figure $30/day for him.

Lodging averages in around $200/night - almost always rent a condo so a little more expensive, but saves around $75 a day on food)

so for my average of 20 days a year, I figure I spend $320/day or $6,400 for lifts and lodging.

If I up that to 45 days (every weekend, a couple of 3-day weekends, and a week it would end up costing $14,400 for the season...

assuming I stay at Stratton - arguably the most expensive pass in the east - I'd spend $899 for each adult season pass and $649 for kid's pass = $2447 for passes, leaving $11,953 for lodging... or $265/night.

If I stick to the schedule of riding every weekend from Thanksgiving to the end of March, I'd save $65/ night or $2925 for the season.

That seems like a lot of money, but there are a couple of other factors to consider...

1) seasonal rental in the stratton area would probably end up around the same after taxes, utilities, snow removal, etc... (I could probably cut this a little by getting a smaller place farther from the mountain, but my experience and conversation with others tells me that there is a real security risk if you go to cheaper housing)

2) I am locked in to one mountain for the season

3) having to come up with the entire payment up front is much less convenient that pay-as-you-go

4) if we have a year like we just had, when most of the early weekends just weren't worth the trip, the per night cost skyrockets.

So, for a "Weekend Warior" family, Is a pass and a rental really worth it?
Am I missing something in my calculations? I'd love to know other people's annual budgets and see how they compare.

-tex

edit: yes I know I am using an unpopular mountain in my example, but the numbers don't change too much switching to Killington, which may be a better mountain but is WAY more crowded when I tend to go.

**jayfrizzo** · 03-20-2007, 07:24 AM

Since we left NYC for SLC (a mountain town with jobs, see you tomorrow), it's been a while since I did the seasonal rental thing.

But it seems you should be able to get into a family-oriented share for waaaaaay less than $11k/season. Shit, we used to get a whole house for that much at Illington.

J-

**tex1230** · 03-20-2007, 08:14 AM

Thanks - problem there is my wife and I had a very bad experience with sharing a house (summer beach house) a few years back and she will not consider sharing again... especially with a kid in the mix.

Most of the houses/condos we've seen in the Stratton area (and Killington) have been in the $7-9k range. after taxes, utilities for the season, etc, that jumps right up into that $10-11k range

**robokill1981** · 03-20-2007, 08:28 AM

Denver, Salt Lake, Reno, Seattle, Spokane, The Bay Area, Sacramento and about a dozen more cities probably employ at least one person each to do the job you're doing out east

**tex1230** · 03-20-2007, 08:38 AM

If you're a headhunter give me a call. Been trying to move back west since the day I got here. Denver and the Bay Area are the only realistic options given that list and what I do...unfortunately every time I talk to companies out there they come to me with a number that is less than 50% of what I make out here...and I know the cost of living is less but not 50% less...

**Fritz** · 03-20-2007, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by robokill1981

Denver, Salt Lake, Reno, Seattle, Spokane, The Bay Area, Sacramento and about a dozen more cities probably employ at least one person each to do the job you're doing out east

Ditto on this. Me > boulder > $375 season pass > $20 round trip gas > 1.5 hours to good skiing > weekday dawn patrol few days/month > tons of pre-season/post-season touring days = 60+ days so far this year. Cheapest way to keep a smile on your face IMO.

Originally Posted by tex1230

If you're a headhunter give me a call. Been trying to move back west since the day I got here. Denver and the Bay Area are the only realistic options given that list and what I do...unfortunately every time I talk to companies out there they come to me with a number that is less than 50% of what I make out here...and I know the cost of living is less but not 50% less...

What do you do?

**tex1230** · 03-20-2007, 08:41 AM

Sales Trader - Equities and derivatives

**Fritz** · 03-20-2007, 08:46 AM

Well...then you're screwed

. No really, you can probably find something in Denver. I'm in commercial banking and got a 20% salary increase when I moved here from Minneapolis. Have you talked to any recruiters?

**bklyn** · 03-20-2007, 08:50 AM

It looks like you'd be better off buying a smaller 2nd home in VT for your getaways if you plan to stay east.

I'm sure you could shave some costs in other ways, like being a mtn ambassador. Corny? Yes, but free passes for you and family (or highly discounted) might be worth the sacrifice of a few mornings.

**Griz** · 03-20-2007, 08:59 AM

I'm curious... has reseach ever been done on the price elasticity of lift tickets? I venture to say that its < 1 (an increase in price increases revenue). Any thoughts?

**Brock Landers** · 03-20-2007, 09:22 AM

Stayed up around Stratton at a quiet cabin- about 15 mins to Stratton, 10 mins to Mt Snow 2 years ago for 5 grand for the winter. Utilities included- would be bigger than needed for you- 3 bedrooms, pullouts downstairs etc...great stove, satellite tv... but if you wait a while until it is almost time for the season, you can find a ton of places that havent been rented yet. Check out VRBO or contact some of the agencies up there/look in the paper. End of October, people are willing to rent their houses for dirt cheap just to get SOMEBODY in there for the winter.

**tex1230** · 03-20-2007, 01:43 PM

Thanks agin. I'm just crunching numbers trying to figure out what to do next year. I think the plan as it stands is to buy either a stratton or killington pass (if killington ever figures out their passes for next year...) and wait for a rental per brock's suggestion.

A few people have suggested buying - anyone accountants know if there is a tax advantage if you rent your primary residence and own a weekend place? May be worth considering if the numbers work.

**H-man** · 03-20-2007, 01:50 PM

I'll admit that I tried to read it but could not get through your post. Not because I don't find the topic interesting but for me it is simple.

I do not regret a single dollar that I ever spent on skiing in any form and never will.

Not a single dollar.

**BigDaddy** · 03-20-2007, 02:39 PM

Skiing makes no sense financially. Don't think about it and just pay the man!

Seriously, if I were you, I'd consider buying further north in VT. Prices around S VT are crazy, but for a little more than you paid in one year, I found a house.

**grrrr** · 03-20-2007, 03:44 PM

Found a job 1 hour from hill.

Found 3 cute college girls to carpool with.

Found a job as a weekend ski instructor for a free ski pass.

Eat my lunch on the lift.

Work M-F. Ski 60 days on weekends.

Final cost - $0 give or take.

**spantik** · 03-20-2007, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by tex1230

A few people have suggested buying - anyone accountants know if there is a tax advantage if you rent your primary residence and own a weekend place? May be worth considering if the numbers work.

1st post here . . .

I'm not an accountant, but know from 1st hand experience you can deduct the interest on a second home the same as your principal residence, and that's if you're just using it yourself. If you're renting it out, you can deduct lots of maintenance, improvements and depreciation too. But your ability to get these bennies really limits your ability to use it yourself (14 days a year or somesuch?). Long term 2d homes can be a decent investment (cheap and easy leverage) though you may be buying in at the top of the market at the moment . . .

You should talk to a recruiter about moving. The securities biz in SF, LA, Denver and SEA is tiny compared to NY/CT, but there are jobs. I moved from DC to Seattle 9 years ago and took a 35% pay cut but after the initial shock it wasn't that big a deal and after a couple years caught back up (bigger fish in a smaller pond effect?)

**The Dad** · 03-20-2007, 03:49 PM

I think you have the economics pretty much down pat. It's basically the same calculation we made last year.

Previously, skiing at Squaw, we were spending about $200-300/night to rent a slopeside 2br (or 1br with a pull-out couch in the living room), $60 each for my wife and my tickets, and $100 each for the three kids to do the kids' program -- basically, somewhere north of $650/day without including transportation or food.

Figure our portion of the ski lease we share with Sinecure runs about five large including utilities; season passes for the adults are $780 each; ski team for the three kids (including passes) runs about a grand each. All told, it's somewhere around $9500-10,000. So figure our break-even is around two weeks, even without accounting for the fact that the $650+ estimate was for non-holiday periods, and now we can go skiing during the kids' school vacations without paying the premium.

I got 35 or 40 days on snow last year, and have 25 days so far this year, and that's not counting days we decided not to ski due to conditions or fatigue. My wife probably has a slightly lower but similar number, overlapping the majority of them. When one of us has to be somewhere else for the weekend, we take the kids skiing, not just because we like it, but also because it's easier than trying to shuffle them around for playdates and such.

And my nine-year-old has skied basically every inch of Alpine Meadows, while my six-year-old twins are putting multiple double-black notches in their belts.

Yeah, we've gotten lucky. Even this year, which was pretty bad, was still worth skiing. And we haven't had a season like Sinecure had a couple back, where he paid the whole nut up front and then destroyed his Achilles on January 2. But assuming that you manage to stay healthy and ski somewhere you enjoy, it's kind of a no-brainer.

**BigAirSkier1580** · 03-20-2007, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by tex1230

If you're a headhunter give me a call. Been trying to move back west since the day I got here. Denver and the Bay Area are the only realistic options given that list and what I do...unfortunately every time I talk to companies out there they come to me with a number that is less than 50% of what I make out here...and I know the cost of living is less but not 50% less...

Kind of have to look at what is a priority for you. How important is skiing to you in the scheme of things?

Maybe it's just because I am young and foolish, but I would surely take a 50% pay decrease (so long as I still made enough to live off) to live in a mountain town a hop and a skip from mountains than being 6-8 hours from any worthwhile skiing.

**hemas** · 03-20-2007, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by BigAirSkier1580

Kind of have to look at what is a priority for you. How important is skiing to you in the scheme of things?

Maybe it's just because I am young and foolish, but I would surely take a 50% pay decrease (so long as I still made enough to live off) to live in a mountain town a hop and a skip from mountains than being 6-8 hours from any worthwhile skiing.

That works if your mostly single... Not so hot, when you have a wife and a kid.

**gh444** · 03-20-2007, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by BigAirSkier1580

Kind of have to look at what is a priority for you. How important is skiing to you in the scheme of things?

Maybe it's just because I am young and foolish, but I would surely take a 50% pay decrease (so long as I still made enough to live off) to live in a mountain town a hop and a skip from mountains than being 6-8 hours from any worthwhile skiing.

put your money where your mouth is?

**hop** · 03-20-2007, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by grrrr

Found 3 cute college girls to carpool with.

You sir are a dirty dirty man.

BTW if one of those college girls is a pinner from Durango please tell her I'll be back next year to teach her how to jump off of stuff.

**BigAirSkier1580** · 03-20-2007, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by gonehuckin

put your money where your mouth is?

Doing the school thing still. I will be in some real hills soon enough.

**mnflyfish** · 03-20-2007, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by tex1230

If you're a headhunter give me a call. Been trying to move back west since the day I got here. Denver and the Bay Area are the only realistic options given that list and what I do...unfortunately every time I talk to companies out there they come to me with a number that is less than 50% of what I make out here...and I know the cost of living is less but not 50% less...

I'm a headhunter, or my preference, an Executive Recruiter. What do you do?

Jay

**mnflyfish** · 03-20-2007, 04:41 PM

OK I didn't read far enough. Securities. Well I could get you a lot closer to the Mtns but in grain-the MPLS grain exchange to be precise. The cost of living would be a lot less, great quality of life, but wait our skiing sucks. Look up someone in Denver. Should be able to hit a mark you can deal with.

Jay

**robgoose** · 03-20-2007, 04:48 PM

If you don't want to limit yourself to Mt. Snow, Stratton, Killington etc..., then the house may not make sense. (Especially if some of that $ goes to a week awat from the Ice Coast).

On the other hand, having your skigear/clothing/staples already waiting for you in a condo/house near the mountain makes the trip that much easier to make on a Friday Night and makes the trip back (no 10:00 am checkout) much less stressful. Also, you keep some level of flexibility to change plans at the last minute.

Personally, I would take a western trip and fewer ski days over a condo/house at Mt. Snow/Stratton/Killington if I had to choose between the two. I might feel differently if my 41/2 hour Friday night drive deposited me in San Fran....

GL.

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