Wellfare anyone?

[SledNeck]

Gotta kick out of this read, its just loaded with stereotypes that are oh so true..........

http://boortz.com/ads/plunder.html

[splat]

In Europe there are no homeless people. You can buy pot on the shelf in stores in Switzerland. They don't have much of a drug problem, either. Their annual murder rate doesn't even come close to the daily murder rate in the US. Their cars get 50-60 mpg.

Why is that?

[iceman]

No republicans.

[Cornholio]

Originally posted by splat
In Europe there are no homeless people.

You and I have been to some different parts of Europe, then.

[splat]

Originally posted by Cornholio
You and I have been to some different parts of Europe, then.

Where were you?

[1080Rider]

Don't forget the 45% taxes... I bet that sure improves the quality of life.

[splat]

I was waiting for someone to mention that.

However, sensibility in many other areas seems to outshine the US's policies enough that there's something to be learned from some countries in the 'Old Europe'.

[SledNeck]

Originally posted by splat
In Europe there are no homeless people. You can buy pot on the shelf in stores in Switzerland. They don't have much of a drug problem, either. Their annual murder rate doesn't even come close to the daily murder rate in the US.
Why is that?

There's also no spirit of competition in the work force, thats why this is AMERICA and not Europe. I prefer to not have my ass wiped for me. And prefer not to wipe anybody elses ass either.

Their cars get 50-60 mpg.

Those arent cars those are covered mopeds.

[AntiSoCalSkier]

Originally posted by Cornholio
You and I have been to some different parts of Europe, then.

I don't know where Cornholio is speaking of, but there are many parts of Europe that do have serious homeless problems. Paris and London both come to mind as cities wih bums living on the streets (the Paris Metro late at night is a good place to spot them). On the other hand countries like Norway, and Switzerland really don't have a homeless problem, but their taxes are sky-high. Despite occaasionally feeling like the author of the above article, I really do prefer the Socialist system. I'm still not sure where I stand, but I think I'm a Socialist Libertarian (is that possible?)

edit - I think it's pretty simple difference between the European systems and the American system. In Europe, it's a lot harder to become REALLY, REALLY rich, but it's also a lot harder to become REALLY, REALLY poor. In America there is that possibilty of becoming incredibly rich, but you also run the risk of falling off the bottom too. It's the classic increased risk, increased rewards situation.

[SledNeck]

I'm still not sure where I stand, but I think I'm a Socialist Libertarian (is that possible?)

No, I am a wacko-conservative/libertarian, though party affiliation is undeclared. I can tell you that Libertarian is diametrically opposite to anything socialist.

If you mean that you have libertarian views on social politics and socialist views on spending policies and taxation, in my book that would define you as a "Liberal"

[Ripzalot]

Originally posted by splat
In Europe there are no homeless people. You can buy pot on the shelf in stores in Switzerland. They don't have much of a drug problem, either. Their annual murder rate doesn't even come close to the daily murder rate in the US. Their cars get 50-60 mpg.

Why is that?

splat, you're a bit behind in your swiss news! much of this was true only a few years ago....

switzerland has unfortunately seen a rise of the rightwing People's Party party in politics. i don't think there is ANYWHERE to buy weed off the shelf anymore. the last holdout was basel, and i recently heard they were all closed down and went underground. they were operating illegally anyways, the police just never bothered. there is a vote coming up again regarding the decriminalization but it's not favored to pass. nevertheless, you can still spark up in a park or on the lifts and no one will bat an eye.

murder rate - yes, very low here but has been on the rise in recent years, mainly due to immigrants from west africa seeking political asylum, who come here and set up as drug dealers and kill each other over turf. this is one of the reason's for the rise of the People's Party - anti-immigration and protection of swiss nationals.

some cars do get 50-60mpg but most people drive typical cars like bmws, audis, and such. switzerland, like the USA, has seen a rise in SUV sales. it's not uncommon to see huge land rovers or the occasional hummer on the roads here.

but i think you may be right about the homeless people. too damn cold!

[up an down]

Originally posted by SledNeck
No, I am a wacko-conservative/libertarian

your sled took on wrong turn on the way to the wacko-conservative online forum and you wound up here?

[AntiSoCalSkier]

Originally posted by SledNeck
No, I am a wacko-conservative/libertarian, though party affiliation is undeclared. I can tell you that Libertarian is diametrically opposite to anything socialist.

If you mean that you have libertarian views on social politics and socialist views on spending policies and taxation, in my book that would define you as a "Liberal"

I think your description of my views is correct. Basically I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt others. I also think that it is better for society if we don't have a huge income spread.

However, I don't really like the "liberal" label. To me, a liberal is pretty much anyone who opposes the Republicans, which includes libertarians, greens, and members of thePansexual Peace Party (you can tell a politcal party is serious when they use tripod to host their web site). To me, liberal is such a broad category as to be almost useless in describing someone's views. It is also an extremely "loaded" word, because it is so commonly used as an insult.

[Ripzalot]

Originally posted by AntiSoCalSkier
On the other hand countries like Norway, and Switzerland really don't have a homeless problem, but their taxes are sky-high. Despite occaasionally feeling like the author of the above article, I really do prefer the Socialist system. I'm still not sure where I stand, but I think I'm a Socialist Libertarian (is that possible?)

Switzerland is not socialist nor are the taxes sky-high! In fact, it is one of the oldest and most democratic country on the planet AND the taxes are the lowest in Europe. I wouldn't live here otherwise. If you like socialism, be prepared to shell out 40-50% or more in taxes and enjoy second rate medical care.

[SledNeck]

I think your description of my views is correct. Basically I think people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt others.

I used to feel people should be able to do whatever they want, but when I see people abusing alocohol/drugs, then look to the taxpayers to bail them out, thats when I drew the line.

I also think that it is better for society if we don't have a huge income spread.

Now as far as income spread is concerned. I am extremely motivated by the fact that people make huge quantities more than me. This is how I build my goals for providing better quality of life for my family. I also like the fact that people make less than I do, because Im motivated to continue to work hard so that my family & I do not have to live that way either. For me spirit of competition is what drives excellence, there is no competition if we are all equal.

[up an down]

Originally posted by SledNeck
I used to feel people should be able to do whatever they want, but when I see people abusing alocohol/drugs, then look to the taxpayers to bail them out, thats when I drew the line.



Now as far as income spread is concerned. I am extremely motivated by the fact that people make huge quantities more than me. This is how I build my goals for providing better quality of life for my family. I also like the fact that people make less than I do, because Im motivated to continue to work hard so that my family & I do not have to live that way either. For me spirit of competition is what drives excellence, there is no competition if we are all equal.

the spirit of co-operation can drive excellence just as much as a spirit of competition.. and all too often " extremely motivated" people will break laws, lie , cheat , bribe politicians, etc. to make quantities on money, or to reach and hold onto positions of social power and dominance.... in my experience, the people motivated to make large amounts of money, and to be at the top of the heap financially are the least likable people i have met. give me someone who is motivated to enjoy living, be happy with other people, and help others to have a decent life. and maintain a quality society.. those are the people who make life excellent.. not the greedheads!!!

[Mcwop]

Switzerland has a low crime rate, and every house has a gun in it. Things that make you go hmmmmm.

[SledNeck]

and all too often " extremely motivated" people will break laws, lie , cheat , bribe politicians, etc. to make quantities on money, or to reach and hold onto positions of social power and dominance

Are there any numbers? Most of the wealthy folks I've been associated with are very driven and work very hard to get ahead. Most had to big of an ego to ever risk doing something "grey" to jeopardize all that they had worked. It's just like athletics you've got cheaters and you've got sportsman its just a different ball game.

[CaddyDaddy77]

Originally posted by SledNeck
Are there any numbers? Most of the wealthy folks I've been associated with are very driven and work very hard to get ahead. Most had to big of an ego to ever risk doing something "grey" to jeopardize all that they had worked. It's just like athletics you've got cheaters and you've got sportsman its just a different ball game.

Agreed, most are not the super-wealthy well look at today's headlines:

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A judge threw out an enterprise corruption charge against two former Tyco International Ltd. executives Friday, removing one of the most serious claims in a 33-count indictment that accuses them of looting the conglomerate of $600 million.

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Jurors began a third day of deliberations in the Martha Stewart trial Friday, appearing to be focused on a perjury charge against Stewart's former broker, Peter Bacanovic.

SOMERVILLE, N.J. (AP) -- A former teammate of Jayson Williams testified Thursday that the former NBA star pulled the trigger on a shotgun he had snapped closed, killing a van driver who had been touring his mansion
"Did I see Jayson pull the trigger?" Benoit Benjamin responded to a question by defense lawyer Billy Martin. "Yes, I saw him pull the trigger."

Court TV) -- Robert Durst, the multimillionaire Manhattanite acquitted of murdering an elderly Texas man, was house hunting last month in anticipation of his release from jail soon.

[splat]

Has anyone ever added up the total percent of income Americans pay in taxes, from income tax, Social Security (that' pretty much history now, right?), gas tax, sales tax, etc., etc?

[1080Rider]

Splat, you're still workin' for the man. You don't start makin' money for yourself until after May 1. (we pay roughly 25% in taxes are the numbers I've seen) Pretty depressing if you ask me.

[Mcwop]

Originally posted by splat
Has anyone ever added up the total percent of income Americans pay in taxes, from income tax, Social Security (that' pretty much history now, right?), gas tax, sales tax, etc., etc?

- Start Here -

edit - And More

[SledNeck]

Yet more .....

Subject: Taxes 101
[For the source/writer, see at the bottom.]

Sometimes Politicians exclaim; "It's just a tax cut for the rich!", and
it is just accepted to be fact. But what does that really mean? Just in case you are not completely clear on this issue, we hope the following will help.

Tax Cuts--A Simple Lesson In Economics

This is how the cookie crumbles. Please read it carefully.

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh $7.
The eighth $12.
The ninth $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."

So, now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay
their bill the way we pay our taxes.

So, the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six, the paying customers? How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share'?

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they
subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being 'PAID' to eat their meal.

So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each
man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the
amounts each should pay.

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get
anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are lots of good restaurants in Europe and the Caribbean.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Distinguished Professor of Economics
536 Brooks Hall
University of

[splat]

Originally posted by SledNeck
There are lots of good restaurants in Europe and the Caribbean.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Distinguished Professor of Economics
536 Brooks Hall
University of

Is that because taxes are only 30-40 percent there, Professor?

But Sledneck, really, are you saying if your sled fell on you while highmarking and broke your back, rendering you paralyzed and destitute, you wouldn't go down to welfare when the insurance money ran out to feed your family if the cupboard was empty?

Or would you go the Soylent Green route?

[SledNeck]

But Sledneck, really, are you saying if your sled fell on you while highmarking and broke your back, rendering you paralyzed and destitute, you wouldn't go down to welfare when the insurance money ran out to feed your family if the cupboard was empty?

For one, I'd never be caught high marking, I spent 20 years earning my turns, and have to much appreciation for the volatility of snowpack under skier weight, much less the added stress of 500 lbs and 120hp.

Now If I could not provide for my family because I was paralyzed, well Isn't that what Social Security is for, for which I've PAID my fair share. But that leads me to another question, is that not what wellfare was designed for in the first place. Those that can not provide for themselves, not those who refuse to provide for themselves.