Sunday Evening Question: Sticks and Stones...

[bklyn]

... may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?
To be PC or not to be PC?

Some groups don't like words that can be construed as racial/ethnic/etc. slurs. Is avoiding these words being "PC" or just polite?

Some people outside these groups seem to want to reserve the right to use these words, whether or not they may be offensive to others. Is this automatically evidence of racism/sexism/homophobia? How else would you categorize it?

?!?!? ?!?!?

If Pakistani people do not want to be called Paki, for example, or X people do not want to be called Y, why is that seen as a burden? No sarcasm intended, only genuine curiosity.

What is it about this aspect of "Political Correctness" that people find so objectionable?

[shmerham]

Being the anxious type, I the only thing I find burdensome is uncertainty. For instance, does the person who was born in Mexico but now lives in Chicago want to be called a mexican-american or hispanic or latino or maybe none of the above?

Not sure if that answers the question. If something is obviously a slur, I also don't see why it's burdensome to not use it.

[shamrockpow]

I swing back and forth on the topic of political correctness.

Grew up in Cambridge, MA and the PC-police were utterly unbearable. Then again, we had very little racism in my public schools, a very open minded policy about sexuality, and not a whole lot of conservatives.

Now I live in Latin America and it just feels weird how everyone refers to large swaths of people as "negro", "chino", or other catch-all terms (ex-President Fujimori, of Japanese descent, is almost always referred to simply as "El Chino" -- including in his own campaign ads!).

I guess the bottom line is that PC-ness is a very context specific thing. What you feel comfortable saying/hearing with one group of people in one location may be offensive in another. How do you draw the line? Best policy I've come up with is try not to be a complete dick and if you offend someone, apologize.

[mrryde]

To me its less about the words and more about the context they are used in.

Anyway, after thinking about this reminded my about George Carlins Euphimisms bit.

There's a different group to get pissed off at you in this country for everything your not supposed to say. Can't say Nigger, Boogie, Jig, Jigaboo, Skinhead, Moolimoolinyon, Schvatzit, Junglebunny. Greaser, Greaseball, Dago, Guinea, Whop, Ginzo, Kike, Zebe, Heed, Yid, Mocky, Himie, Mick, Donkey, Turkey, Limey, Frog. Zip, Zipperhead, Squarehead, Crout, Hiney, Jerry, Hun, Slope, Slopehead, Chink, Gook. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words in and of themselves. Their only words. It's the context that counts. It's the user. It's the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language. Bullshit! It's the context that makes them good or bad. The context. That makes them good or bad. For instance, you take the word "Nigger." There is absolutely nothing wrong with the word "Nigger" in and of itself. It's the racist asshole who's using it that you ought to be concerned about. We don't mind when Richard Pryer or Eddie Murphy say it. Why? Because we know their not racist. Their Niggers! Context. Context. We don't mind their context because we know their black. Hey, I know I'm whitey, the blue-eyed devil, paddy-o, fay gray boy, honkey, mother-fucker myself. Don't bother my ass. Their only words. You can't be afraid of words that speak the truth, even if it's an unpleasant truth, like the fact that there's a bigot and a racist in every living room on every street corner in this country. I don't like words that hide the truth. I don't words that conceal reality. I don't like euphemisms, or euphemistic language. And American English is loaded with euphemisms. Cause Americans have a lot of trouble dealing with reality. Americans have trouble facing the truth, so they invent the kind of a soft language to protest themselves from it, and it gets worse with every generation. For some reason, it just keeps getting worse. I'll give you an example of that. There's a condition in combat. Most people know about it. It's when a fighting person's nervous system has been stressed to it's absolute peak and maximum. Can't take anymore input. The nervous system has either (click) snapped or is about to snap. In the first world war, that condition was called shell shock. Simple, honest, direct language. Two syllables, shell shock. Almost sounds like the guns themselves. That was seventy years ago. Then a whole generation went by and the second world war came along and very same combat condition was called battle fatigue. Four syllables now. Takes a little longer to say. Doesn't seem to hurt as much. Fatigue is a nicer word than shock. Shell shock! Battle fatigue. Then we had the war in Korea, 1950. Madison avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called operational exhaustion. Hey, were up to eight syllables now! And the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase. It's totally sterile now. Operational exhaustion. Sounds like something that might happen to your car. Then of course, came the war in Viet Nam, which has only been over for about sixteen or seventeen years, and thanks to the lies and deceits surrounding that war, I guess it's no surprise that the very same condition was called post-traumatic stress disorder. Still eight syllables, but we've added a hyphen! And the pain is completely buried under jargon. Post-traumatic stress disorder. I'll bet you if we'd of still been calling it shell shock, some of those Viet Nam veterans might have gotten the attention they needed at the time. I'll betcha. I'll betcha.

But. But, it didn't happen, and one of the reasons. One of the reasons is because we were using that soft language. That language that takes the life out of life. And it is a function of time. It does keep getting worse. I'll give you another example. Sometime during my life. Sometime during my life, toilet paper became bathroom tissue. I wasn't notified of this. No one asked me if I agreed with it. It just happened. Toilet paper became bathroom tissue. Sneakers became running shoes. False teeth became dental appliances. Medicine became medication. Information became directory assistance. The dump became the landfill. Car crashes became automobile accidents. Partly cloudy bacame partly sunny. Motels became motor lodges. House trailers became mobile homes. Used cars became previously owned transportation. Room service became guest-room dining. And constipation became occasional irregularity. When I was a little kid, if I got sick they wanted me to go to the hospital and see a doctor. Now they want me to go to a health maintenance organization...or a wellness center to consult a healthcare delivery professional. Poor people used to live in slums. Now the economically disadvantaged occupy substandard housing in the inner cities. And they're broke! They're broke! They don't have a negative cash-flow position. They're fucking broke! Cause a lot of them were fired. You know, fired. management wanted to curtail redundancies in the human resources area, so many people are no longer viable members of the workforce.

Smug, greedy, well-fed white people have invented a language to conceal their sins. It's as simple as that. The CIA doesn't kill anybody anymore, they neutralize people...or they depopulate the area. The government doesn't lie, it engages in disinformation. The pentagon actually measures nuclear radiation in something they call sunshine units. Israeli murderers are called commandos. Arab commandos are called terrorists. Contra killers are called freedom fighters. Well, if crime fighters fight crime and fire fighters fight fire, what do freedom fighters fight? They never mention that part of it to us, do they? Never mention that part of it.

And...and some of this stuff is just silly, we all know that, like on the airlines, they say want to pre- board. Well, what the hell is pre-board, what does that mean? To get on before you get on? They say they're going to pre-board those passengers in need of special assistance. Cripples! Simple honest direct language. There is no shame attached to the word cripple that I can find in any dictionary. No shame attached to it, in fact it's a word used in bible translations. Jesus healed the cripples. Doesn't take seven words to describe that condition. But we don't have any cripples in this country anymore. We have The physically challenged. Is that a grotesque enough evasion for you? How about differently abled. I've heard them called that. Differently abled! You can't even call these people handicapped anymore. They'll say, "Were not handicapped. Were handicapable!" These poor people have been bullshitted by the system into believing that if you change the name of the condition, somehow you'll change the condition. Well, hey cousin, ppsssspptttttt. Doesn't happen. Doesn't happen.

We have no more deaf people in this country, hearing impaired. No ones blind anymore, partially sighted or visually impaired. We have no more stupid people. Everyone has a learning disorder...or he's minimally exceptional. How would you like to be told that about your child? "He's minimally exceptional." "Oohh, thank god for that." Psychologists actually have started calling ugly people, those with severe appearance deficits. It's getting so bad, that any day now I expect to hear a rape victim referred to as an unwilling sperm recipient.

And we have no more old people in this country. No more old people. We shipped them all away, and we brought in these senior citizens. Isn't that a typically American twentieth century phrase? Bloodless, lifeless, no pulse in one of them. A senior citizen. But I've accepted that one, I've come to terms with it. I know it's to stay. We'll never get rid of it. That's what they're going to be called, so I'll relax on that, but the one I do resist. The one I keep resisting is when they look at an old guy and they'll say, "Look at him Dan! He's ninety years young." Imagine the fear of aging that reveals. To not even be able to use the word "old" to describe somebody. To have to use an antonym. And fear of aging is natural. It's universal. Isn't it? We all have that. No one wants to get old. No one wants to die, but we do! So we bullshit ourselves. I started bullshitting myself when I got to my forties. As soon as I got into my forties I'd look in the mirror and I'd say, "well, I...I guess I'm getting...older." Older sounds a little better than old doesn't it? Sounds like it might even last a little longer. Bullshit, I'm getting old! And it's okay, because thanks to our fear of death in this country, I won't have to die...I'll pass away. Or I'll expire like a magazine subscription. If it happens in the hospital, they'll call it a terminal episode. The insurance company will refer to it as negative patient-care outcome. And if it's the result of malpractice, they'll say it was a therapeutic misadventure. I'm telling you, some of this language makes me want to vomit. Well, maybe not vomit. Makes me want to engage in an involuntary personal protein spill.

Maybe not exactly where you intended this to go, but to me being PC is alot about sanitizing everything. If I have to state someones skin color, white people are white, black people are black. I cant spell caucasion and african american just doesn't roll off the tounge naturally.

[Kevo]

I'm offended by political correctness

[72Twenty]

To be PC or not to be PC?

I use a Mac.

[Kevo]

Also, political correctness is all about fearing words- as far as I am concerned, people who are hardcore into PC policing are to be considered fundamentalists- they are taking something way too far.

[powder11]

I guess it all depends on the situation and context, like a white supremicist using the term nigger vs. two black guys greating each other using the same word; two entirely different situations and meanings. using ethnic slurs in a public place generally isnt a good idea as someone could easily be offended and it makes the user look kind of ignorant.

[MeatPuppet]

Is avoiding these words being "PC" or just polite?

I normally deffer to whatever term is socially acceptable for the group I am around. I deal with a broad range of people on a daily basis and don't feel the need to turn my life into a personal crusade. But in the purely academic/intellectual world, I prefer accuracy and practicality above social convince. That normally means I am opposed to "PC" terms being the only acceptable terms.

Some people outside these groups seem to want to reserve the right to use these words, whether or not they may be offensive to others.

Many people would place me in the category you just mentioned: It is impossible to please everyone. There are people who would seek to acquire power through being offended. It is this approach to the subject that I seem to see a lot of, and it is that approach that I have a problem with. I don't sense sincerity in that approach. I see, instead, an attempt to create an identity through controlling the language.

Is this automatically evidence of racism/sexism/homophobia? How else would you categorize it?

Personally, it is an attempt to keep the language from being hijacked by a small group of people. Words have meaning and we, as a society, can't allow them to be hijacked and changed every five years because some small group is now offended by the current usage.

For example, what are you? Are you a Black girl? African-American? A Negro? What would you call yourself? My roommate of 8 years is often referred to as an African-American. That drives him up the wall. He will tell you that he has as much French blood in him as African, and 14 generations of his family have called St Lucia home. He finds his identity in the Islands, not Africa. Yet others would attempt to define what he is to further their own agenda. It's friction in the gears of society and it's just not beneficial.

If Pakistani people do not want to be called Paki, for example, or X people do not want to be called Y, why is that seen as a burden? No sarcasm intended, only genuine curiosity.

What is it about this aspect of "Political Correctness" that people find so objectionable?

If I am around a group of people and they have the quiet strength to look me in the eye and tell me that the term that I just used is offensive to them(with no animosity or condescension), then tell me the term they prefer, I will respect them for it and attempt to remember their preference in the future. But that is normally not what happens. Normally people use a person's choice of words to decide weather or not that person is enlightened/educated/has the broom handle stuck up his ass at the correct angel, to be viewed as acceptable or not. It is this pretentiousness that I have a problem with.


Good questions, and certainly not a simple subject.

[Parvo Pup]

For example, what are you? Are you a Black girl? African-American? A Negro? What would you call yourself?

I would call her "Tracy".

[Jer]

Political correctness is gay.

[MeatPuppet]

Anyway, after thinking about this reminded my about George Carlins Euphimisms bit.

Bwhahahahaha! I hadn't ever read that before. I'm going to have to find me some more George Carlins because that is just pure gold!

[lemon boy]

its sunday
I just got done eating a smoked prime rib, roasted red/yellow/orange peppers, creamed spinache and some bannaaers foster for dessert (holy god do I love rum butter an dbrown sugar!).

Oh, and I'm pretty well drunk so:

I don't think that words themselves are reallly ever the problem, seriously I think that it is easily possible to come up with non-offensive uses for most any word be it nigger, cunt, fag, commie, jap or niggardly.

But, I'm also, in addition bo being an asshole kind of a nice guy usually and I personally take pains to ensure that people with whom i"m conversing are not offended...unless I'm feeling like an sashole or think they're a jerk in which case I'm fefinitely libalbe to needle them mercilessly...which is beside the point: the intent of how a word is used is what really matters and I generally intend to use them inoffensively.

That of course doesn't mean that I think tis inaaprropriatne to let people know when you're conversing with them that you find a usage offensive, though I'll generally give people the benefit of the doubt that ana offensive usagtge is out of pure ignorance rather ahtn malice.

YEAHAWR!

I also thinkt hat a lot of people have correpupted the term PC to be just yet another fucking dubm as shit partisan "thought placeholder" and it doesn't really mean anything. instead it's becomes mere attack/devence instead of a real point of dialouge. Pretty sad really that something that should be aobut getting to a real dialouge and allowing us to converse without malice has become malice its.elf.

yeah buddy.

[schindlerpiste]

To one degree or another, everyone speaks differently, and uses different words, depending upon the situation, and/or company. For instance, sometimes, behind closed doors, I'm a ginny to a Jew; a wop to a Mik; a spaghetti fresser to a kraut. Likewise, I would be lying, if I asserted that I NEVER referred to someone in a derrogatory manner (e.g.: Jew; melanzana; Limey). Having said this, I don't think that I have a prejudice bone in my body. I was brought up with these words; thus I use them in closed company. (Granted, not as much as my parents and grandparents, and hopefully, more than my kids).
The blue bloods (who invented PC) refuse to grant me membership to some of their precious country clubs, because my great grandfather was born in Naples. Women are not allowed to be members at Agusta. You can imagine what words are used behind the closed doors of these holy institutions! IMO, this is not the result of prejudice, but rather, a result of custom and tradition.
The point is while I don't like to admit that I am a proponent of PC, I must admit that it has its place in society. It's kind of what seperates us from apes. ...

[powstash]

... may break my bones, but words will never hurt me?
To be PC or not to be PC?

For a second there I thought you were talking about the nice consignment store in Park City named "Sticks and Stones". Alas, you were not. Nice shop though. I recommend it.

[shamrockpow]

That of course doesn't mean that I think tis inaaprropriatne to let people know when you're conversing with them that you find a usage offensive, though I'll generally give people the benefit of the doubt that ana offensive usagtge is out of pure ignorance rather ahtn malice.

YEAHAWR!

´Tis not inappropriate! A double negative from Lemon Boy that I can agree with!

To wit: I remember once asking a friend if he was the "pitcher" or "catcher" in his relationship (he is gay). The response? "God that´s such a straight way to put it!" Now I use "top" and "bottom" if I need to be that forward. Lesson learned. No harm, no foul.

[jfost]

It can hurt to be misidentified based on your appearance or prejudicial "category", whatever that may be. Political Correctness is an attempt to mitigate that pain. Unfortunately, people don't like to be told what to do, hence all the fuss.

I do not know why it is so hard for some to be sensitive to others' needs. The hallmark of an evolved person is the ability to consider the thoughts and ideas of others. People know when they are truly being disrespected, and will usually let you know if you're the one disrespecting them. Then it is up to you to decide to learn from it, or throw up your hands and say, "I just can't understand what THEY want... THOSE PEOPLE change their minds about what THEY want to be called every 5 minutes..."

It's a hard thing, because we're all guilty of prejudice sometimes... I personally think it is healthy to own it and use the lessons to better yourself, not as another soapbox to further hate and oppression.

[Tippster]

Whatever you do, don't say "Paddy wagon" around Iceman.

I have yet to run into an instance when using a pejorative term was necessary, much less mandatory. It's not that I'm being PC, there are just other ways to talk... you know - classylike, motherfuckers.

Can I call myself a Mid-Atlantic American if my family has lived here for X generations? Am I "White," Caucasian, or European-American?

My daughter the other day told me about something she and her friend Quinn did in class. Oddly enough there are two of them, so I asked her "which Quinn?" She answered "the Black one." I did not correct her, because IMHO she chose the most obvious descriptor and there were no pejorative overtones to it. Should she have said "the one that likes to draw pictures of horses?"

[mrryde]

Bwhahahahaha! I hadn't ever read that before. I'm going to have to find me some more George Carlins because that is just pure gold!

http://www.iceboxman.com/carlin/pael.php#track15

[Fritz]

What is it about this aspect of "Political Correctness" that people find so objectionable?

Shut up cracker

[Blurred]

Being PC is just being fake.

Fake people offend me much more than insecure racist bigots. At least the racists will be honest with you and let you know where they stand. That means a lot more than a douche who acts like he likes you, when he actually has a deep seated hatred for you.

I guess words only have the power that you give them anyway.

I'd also like to state that LB seems to think "niggardly" is a racist statement.
Just because a word comes close to another offensive word, that doesn't mean jack. It's not my job to teach you the english language. If the word offends you, that's your problem, not mine.

[Free Range Lobster]

Calling people racial slurs makes me look cool

There, I fixed it for you.

[Kevo]

There, I fixed it for you.

...or you could remove your head from your ass. Seriously, what the fuck are you trying to prove?


I said nothing about racial slurs being cool. Rewriting history books to exclude words like "founding fathers" because it is sexist, double standards with tribe names as mascots (Seminoles, etc) being considered racist while it is perfectly acceptable for "Fighting Irish", "Spartans", etc, it being considered unacceptable to have any title with the word "man" in it- "fireman/policeman must now be called fire fighter/police officer. Thats what I am talking about, and it is getting out of hand.

[yogachik]

uh oh. What happened?

[Free Range Lobster]

I said nothing about racial slurs being cool. Rewriting history books to exclude words like "founding fathers" because it is sexist, double standards with tribe names as mascots (Seminoles, etc) being considered racist while it is perfectly acceptable for "Fighting Irish", "Spartans", etc, it being considered unacceptable to have any title with the word "man" in it- "fireman/policeman must now be called fire fighter/police officer. Thats what I am talking about, and it is getting out of hand.

Howabout...

Some examples?

Other than lobbyists trying to make a buck (which is actually happening in a town here in MA right now)