Going to Solar Power

[PlayHarder]

Living in an area with a high # of sunny days per year and having a house that backs s-e, I've been thinking of installing a solar power system of some type. I can get a wicked deal on most of the stuff I think I'll need through work, particularly the panels so it looks reasonable from a cost perspective.

Can't figure out which way I should go, though.
I was thinking of a battery pack system that would run lights, pc, tv, etc while leaving the high consumption stuff like dryer, range, fridge on conv power.
Or, am I better off going to an intertied system that puts power back into the grid and charges me for useage over the solar output.
I'm not looking to go completely off the grid or go into this looking at a payout from reduced use, just to do my part in reducing our energy needs.

Any thoughts?

[Snow Dog]

If power outages aren't a problem and you're not going off the grid then pushing the power back through your meter is the way to go. Depending on where you live the electric company may be obligated to buy it from you.

Splitting an existing panel so that some stuff is solar can be a big pain.

Trying to run your entire house off the battery stack can be expensive. Let the utility do the "storing" for you.

[BLOOD SWEAT STEEL]

PV net metering is definitely the way to go. Assuming the correct inverter is used, a line-tie system doesn't need a battery. In the event of a full outage though, a couple 1000 amp/hr batteries aren't a bad idea. For $15K you can be up and running and have a system producing enough power to actually start seeing a decent metering return from quickly. Don't try to half-it, you'll just end up spending redundantly when you decide (and you will decide after not too long) to do the full conversion.

Extra investment in the short run, but usually recoverable quickly by gov't incentives & metering. Do it.

[GrizzlyFD]

Agree with SD, and most electric companies will honor running the meter in reverse. Another option is to split the electric coming in into two panels. One for the solar cell/light load and the other for the heavy draw (220V perhaps).

Just a note here, photo cells are particularly expensive because the photovoltaics used now are crystalline ($$$$). In a couple years the transfer to amorphous photovoltaics (cheap) will happen and solar cells will be very inexpensive and it would be stupid not to get a couple on top of you house. But if you can get a deal now, and I know in some states like NJ they offer to pay up to half the solar cell install cost do it now, and you can add on later.

Oh yea and buy the biggest system you can afford. Put as many solar panels as you can (both space wise and aesthtically) b/c the expense/benefit decreases as you put up more panels, especially if you can get that $$ back from the electric company.

[PlayHarder]

Will have battery backup for sure. Our power doesn't go out often, like maybe once or twice every couple of years, but since I can get the stuff pretty cheap - why not.
Was wondering if trying to split things up had the potential to be a huge pain, thanks Snow Dog.

[bio-smear]

In Reno, Sierra Pacific gave huge rebates to people who went this route in their "Solar Generations" program. I think the rebate even covered (or subsidized) the cost of the equipment. Might check with your power company to see if something similar is available.

[Game Over]

we are in the process of setting up a mini-hydro system on our creek. hook up to the grid for sho. look into the state and fed tax credits for this stuff.

if yor in the us the power companys have to buy your power by a act of congress. you can produce and get credits on up to 25kw (average house is like 1.4kw) tax free.

[Snow Dog]

Was wondering if trying to split things up had the potential to be a huge pain

Electricians string stuff together with a minimum of wire so you get an irrational collection of lights and plugs. Even if the stuff you want on backup is seperate, the wires (at the electrical panel) are cut to length so moving them to another panel means they're usually too short.

[PlayHarder]

I live in Alberta and power de-regulation, along with an economy based on oil production, has made this whole thing a lot more complicated than it needs to be.
Rumor is that the Canadian gov't will have incentives in their climate-change policy when it's announced, but for now it's pretty much just something that you have do for yourself. Which doesn't really dampen my desire to do this, it's just frustrating the amount of hoops you need to jump through to try and do the right thing.
This http://www.dlsc.ca/ was got me thinking about this, it's just around the corner from me.

[JeffreyJim]

Where can one find out about financial based incentives (gov't subsidies/tax breaks etc) to do this?

[GrizzlyFD]

You have to search your own state government's websites. They usually have an alternative fuels/power office where you can get more info. Look for some phone numbers, even if they are not the right ones, give em a call and they'll direct you to the right office.

I found this info for a couple homes in NJ:

Our customer in Bricktown, New Jersey had a large tree in their neighbor’s yard that prevented us from using the garage roof. We opted to utilize both a Southeast and Southwestern exposure in order to avoid the shading effect of the tree. This resulted in a 5.678 kW system that provides over 85% of the electricity for the entire home.

PV System Investment
5.678 kW

NJCEP Rebate
$31,201.00

Tax Benefits
(Pending)

First Year Electric Earnings
$847.00

Solar Renewable Energy Credit
$1,100.00

Increased Property Value (Equity)
$16,938.00

Breakeven Point
8 Years

Total Energy Savings (30 years)
$56,266.00

Fixed Cost Per kWh (30 years)
6 Cents

Avoided Co2 (30 years)
245 Tons

Fixed Avoided NOx (30 years)
908 lbs

Avoided SO2 (30 years)
1,249 lbs



This Solar Electric System provides over 125% of clean electricity. The first year’s earnings are estimated at $4,511.49 — as electricity rates rise and Green Tags/SREC go up in value, so do our customer’s yearly earnings. This shows a 17% internal rate of return (IRR).

PV System Investment
10.082 kW

NJCEP Rebate
$49,803.40

Tax Benefits
$2,000.00

First Year Electric Earnings
$1,777.25

Solar Renewable Energy Credit
$2,734.24

Increased Property Value (Equity)
$35,545.10

Breakeven Point
6 Years

Total Energy Savings (30 years)
$306,525.19

Fixed Cost Per kWh (30 years)
7 Cents

Avoided Co2 (30 years)
205 Tons

Fixed Avoided NOx (30 years)
1,314 lbs

Avoided SO2 (30 years)
2,100 lbs


So looking at the 5kW vs. 10kW systems, the doubled output provides an energy savings return of 6X. That's pretty good. The moral of the story here is to put up as big a system as you can afford ($$, aesthetics, etc)

[JeffreyJim]

What capacity does solar usually run at? I know wind usually runs at .22-.3something (in windy parts of CO). Solar is generally considered more expensive (7 cents a kwh vs 5 cents a kwh) Right now an off site wind farm is the best idea we have for a development we're doing...but I can't get an IRR of anything better than 4%...and the cost is about 30k per lot.

EDIT: I'm a finance guy who thinks this is cool shit. If I can figure out how to make renewables work (in volume) financially then I'm convinced.

[Harv]

Where can one find out about financial based incentives (gov't subsidies/tax breaks etc) to do this?

we are getting ready to install a system and Xcel is our Utility. They are offering 50% rebate in order to comply with State Law here in CO where utilities have to get 10% of their power from renewables. They also pay for the net meter in this deal. I was told we could not do a battery backup because of the risk to utility workers working on lines during a power outage...but electrician I am not.

[Smiley]

Check this out:
http://renu.citizenre.com/index.php?c=1171310511

[BigLineSeeker]

Unfortunately neither the Canadian or Alberta government has any sort of incentive programs that relate to renewables with the exception of Ontario's new SOC and a rapid depretiation thing through CCRA for corporations keeping solar from exploding into the indsutry it has developed into in California and NJ. To make things even more difficult, Alberta does not have a 'Net-Metering' policy in place that would require the utility companies to by back your power. However, if you are in Edmonton or Calgary, both EPCOR and ENMAX have their own internal policies that essentially bypass the AEUB and AESO making interconnection much easier.

As for systems:

Grid dependant (no batteries) is the most cost-effective and easiest to wire up. You mount a bunch of PV modules on the roof, wire them in series, bring down a couple of wires to the inverter and feed directly into your distribution panel. This is done in either 120V or 240V AC depending on system size. From there, the power goes to whatever appliances need them and any excess is sent back on the grid. If you have an old dial type power meter, it will spin backwards. If you have a new digital meter, it will need to be replaced or reprogramed to operate as a "bi-directional" meter.

Grid Interactive (with batteries) will give you the same benefits as the above system, but with a built in battery bank. The system is designed to send power back onto the grid as described above, but the inverter now has a built in transfer switch. When the power goes out, the transfer switch will engage and divert the solar and battery power from the main panel to a sub panel. The idea is that you move your critical loads (furnace fan, fridge, some lights, ...) to the sub panel so that they continue to run while the power is out. The downside here is that the inverters cost about 2.5X as much as the regular "grid dependant" and you lose 3 to 4 % efficiency in the DC-AC conversion. You also need to budget close to a grand for batteries (depending on how much autonomy you are looking for) and need vented space to store them.

Off Grid (solar and batteries, no external power) is definitely not the way to go if you have access to utility power. The problem with any self supporting solar system is that we get the least amount of ambient light when we need the most about of electricity (winter). If you are a few kms from available power and it is going to cost tens or thousands to bring it in, the economics start to make sense, but not when you have access to the utility.

If solar is the way you want to go and you live in Edmonton or Calgary its pretty straight forward. The utilities will give you credit for the power you generate (at the same rate you buy it for). If you live outside of Edmonton and Calgary the process is much more arduous and the utility will pay you nothing, you will need to go to the AESO to get paid for the power you produce. The AESO will pay you the wholesale rate (what utilities buy for) with is about 1/3 of what you pay. Then they charge you a bunch of fees to make the readings and send you the cheques. You typically end up paying them more in service fees than you get back from them.

Things are getting better though. The DOE is working on policy that will mandate 'Net-Metering' throughout Alberta, but it is a slow process.

I work in the industry in Calgary and we have an office in Edmonton. PM me if you would like more details.

[Snow Dog]

I was told we could not do a battery backup because of the risk to utility workers working on lines during a power outage...but electrician I am not.

Electrocuting utility workers is a real problem but it makes no sense -- the solar panels will generate power during a power outage too.

[BigLineSeeker]

Every product installed in Canada and the USA needs to be cUL certified the 1401 (I think that is the case file number). This certification requires that the inverter only operates in parallel with the grid when the grid is operating properly. They have over-voltage, under-voltage, over-frequency, under-frequency and anti-islanding protection. The anti-islanding is what protects the lineman.

SD is right, you cannot turn off solar panels. If the sun is up, they put out DC. You can however short them and stop power flow through the inverter.

In grid interactive system (with batteries) the inverter's built in transfer switch ensures that power is only sent to the sub-panel and not the main-panel. This keeps any power from flowing to the grid during an outage.

[BigLineSeeker]

You cannot have a battery backup system that is not tied to a cUL1401 inverter. Theoretically you could set up a battery bank and inverter, tie it to your electrical panel and fire it up any time the power goes out (same can be done with a generator). This is when problems would arise as the power would flow into the main panel and electrify your home's loads. However, there is nothing stopping the excess available power (which there is plenty with a battery bank) to flow out onto the line.

That is when people die and why so many uneducated utilities are gun shy about solar. They just need to understand how properly certified products work.

[PlayHarder]

Thanks for the help, all.
I was hoping BigLineSeeker was going to get in on this. I work d/t Calgary most of the time, so I may have to get in touch with you one of these days on this.

[BigLineSeeker]

I am there a day or two a week. PM me whenever you want to meet up.