Testing the Waters - Ubertrekker

**AKWL** · 12-25-2006, 11:49 PM

100th Post!

After lurking around here and absorbing the general theme of this place, you'll all be pleased to know you've turned me from a guy with a single pair of 75mm waisted skis to the guy who somehow needs multiple pairs of 95+. Thanks.

Not only that, I just came back from family xmas dinner. There were two types of stuffing. Both had big, whole, meaty strips of bacon. I ate more bacon than pretty much anything else. I hope you are all happy. TR to follow.

Something else has come out of my TGR time: I've spent the last few months learning CAD and designing a touring binding/ubertrekker. I think it will address a lot of the issues have with trekkers and naxo/freerides/dynafits.

I don't think this is an entirely new idea, as others have alluded to something similar, but it was something I came to completely on my own.

The general idea is: a two-plate system. One plate is an alpine binding setup. You attach your binding of choice (920, p18, etc). The other plate is the touring plate, and it has a triple pivot walking system and 6 and 12 degree lifters for steeper inclines. There will be no plastic.

Some advantages:

One pair of bindings - many skis
only 6mm of lift
light feet on the way up
burly binding on the way down

Some disadvantages

Switching plates will take a few minutes (one/no tools required)
You will have to carry the relatively heavy apline pates in your pack on the way up
You will have to carry the relatively light touring plates in your pack on the way down.

The current situation:

The CAD files are at the machine shop, I'm getting a quote back on the cost of a prototype. I expect it will be a lot of money. Before I sink a bunch of cash into this, I would like to get an idea on how many people here would be interested in buying a set - if it works.. REI sell the trekkers for $179 and Naxos for $399. I don't know for sure, but I'll bet my concept will be priced in the middle.

So - who's interested? If there's a big enough response from the maggots, I'll pull the trigger and continue with the investment, with some limited production this season.

If there's no interest I'll likely save my cash, buy a set of Naxos and be done with it.

Thanks in advance.

**addict** · 12-26-2006, 12:05 AM

Yeah I've looked at this too but am far too lazy to follow through. If the price is reasonable AND the product is right I'd be in, sure. Although I'd be loathe to get rid of my trusty trekkers

Squatch · 12-26-2006, 12:11 AM

I'm curious. I'm also hesitant to say anything or commit until I see some ideas. Couple questions:

- I'm curious how the bindings will work. Since you're talking about switching plates, I'm envisioning the "alpine plate" w/bindings attached. One of the advantages to skinning is that the weight of skis and bindings is not supported by my back. Carrying a plate + 916s in my pack...well, I'm skeptical. Definitely too skeptical to commit to anything.

Honestly, trekkers are not that bad. On a moderate angle, no sidestepping on ice kind of skintrack, they are near enough to AT bindings. The main issue with them is that they're difficult to get the boot-trekker interface tight enough to give control without some mods. Marshal did something that's supposed to be a pretty significant improvement (metal heel throw, somewhat similar to the bishop one), but I haven't tried them.

That said, I hope you actually do have a sweet new idea. I'd love to see some pictures of the design.

**AKWL** · 12-26-2006, 12:23 AM

Thanks for the responses so far.

Yes, you would be carrying the plate and the 916s on your back. I would have thought that was better than carrying 916s on your feet, but I honestly don't know.

Oh, and to be clear, I'm not looking for anybody to make a commitment to buy or preorder. I just want to avoid paying thousands on the prototyping and testing of a product that nobody really wants.

**addict** · 12-26-2006, 12:46 AM

Yeah, well I'm kinda with squatch there. I realise that people say how much extra weight goes on your feet with trekkers but hell I don't mind it. Maybe I just slide my feet more than lifting, and I almost never use the climbing bales so my action may indeed be significantly different to a lot of ATers. Plus Seth uses trekkers and he's rad.

If it's a 2 plate system this could make the overall weight carried a little too much (yes I realise it's on your feet normally but I have abs of steel). I like to tour with minimal pack beyond what in necessary for reasonable comfort and self rescue. I do multi day tours on the old trekkers and love them, not sure if your system will be as easy, but I'm willing to be convinced. So I'd be very interested to see the plans regardless. If it seems like a well thought out system then whos knows, I could be in.

**Spats** · 12-26-2006, 04:45 AM

Y'all are smoking. This would be 100,000 times better than Trekkers because:

1) The touring plate would weigh the same or less than Trekkers in your pack, and would take up a lot less room. Trekkers are bulky as well as heavy.
2) It would be many times more stable than Trekkers on sidehills or firm snow, basically equivalent to a Silvretta or other non-releasing touring binding, and much better than a Fritschi if done properly, because you wouldn't be lifted miles above the ski and you wouldn't need a release function.
3) I'd rather have the weight in my pack than on my feet. If you don't believe this, try strapping a full water bottle to each ski vs. putting it in your pack.

That being said, I'd have to see renderings and claimed weights. But it sounds like a good idea.

**kellen** · 12-26-2006, 10:57 AM

Interested in seeing some proto images/renderings.

**Core Shot** · 12-26-2006, 11:07 AM

How hard/easy is it to change plates on a cold windy summit without frostnipping fingers or dropping essential parts?

**Snow Dog** · 12-26-2006, 11:09 AM

Isn't there the basic issue that you shouldn't put AT boots (if you're wearing them) in alpine bindings because they don't release properly? There's a few threads on the topic around here. I guess trekkers would have the same issue. It's one advantage of an AT binding.

If you're using this setup with alpine boots then you're probably not going very far.

**Big Blue** · 12-26-2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Snow Dog

Isn't there the basic issue that you shouldn't put AT boots (if you're wearing them) in alpine bindings because they don't release properly? There's a few threads on the topic around here. I guess trekkers would have the same issue. It's one advantage of an AT binding.

If you get one of the new heavy duty AT boots like the endorphin, you can use them with alpine bindings just fine.

As far as the idea goes, I think it's great. I'd much rather have the weight on my back than on my feet. I do share the concern about swapping plates on a cold windy summit. The changing should be able to be accomplished with gloves on, and with no small parts to drop.

**hop** · 12-26-2006, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Spats

1) The touring plate would weigh the same or less than Trekkers in your pack, and would take up a lot less room. Trekkers are bulky as well as heavy.

Except he just said that you'd be carrying the plate AND 916's (or whatever binder you wanted) in your pack. That = heavy and bulky.

**AKWL** · 12-26-2006, 12:47 PM

Thanks again for the responses.

I thought about the 'fiddling with icy tools that you just dropped on the summit issue'. The final version will be no-tools required and everything will be anchored to either the plates or the ski. I think I'd include the option of having a tools-required (5mm allen key) setup that would be extra secure.

In terms of bulk, I think this setup is a disadvantage to trekkers.

As to the bulk, it sounds like including a bag for stashing the plates/bindings securely outside a pack is a good thing to pursue - keeping an admittedly bulky setup from taking up space for other gear.

**Snow Dog** · 12-26-2006, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Big Blue

If you get one of the new heavy duty AT boots like the endorphin, you can use them with alpine bindings just fine.

Nice boot. The Endorphin comes with interchangable soles -- an ISO norm alpine sole and an improved ski mountaineering sole. That'll cover all the bases (or bindings).

**mtaylor** · 12-26-2006, 03:06 PM

couldnt someone just make a better trekker?

**Spats** · 12-26-2006, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by hop

Except he just said that you'd be carrying the plate AND 916's (or whatever binder you wanted) in your pack. That = heavy and bulky.

Plate + bindings = no more bulky than Trekkers.
Heavier, but that's weight that would otherwise be on your feet.

Trekkers = 22.8 oz each. I suspect that well-engineered touring and alpine
plates wouldn't weigh much more than this, because they don't have to have a fake bootsole to sit in bindings. So the net weight increase would be very low relative to the weight of the system, and the net performance increase would be huge.

**Spats** · 12-26-2006, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by mtaylor

couldnt someone just make a better trekker?

No matter what you do, you're still sitting way above the ski, and you're still torquing the alpine binding around, so you will never get decent sidehill or hard snow performance even if you made the whole thing out of a block of metal.

**abraham** · 12-26-2006, 07:37 PM

How would you attach the plates securely without needing tools even iff the plates are covered in built up snow? The idea sounds good, though I probably would not buy them cause i don't have money right now...