Fack the draft

[1080Rider]

Originally posted by bad_roo
Did George W ever win the Heisman Trophy too?

No, but his dad owned a team who's player won the Cy Young. Prolly not the same huh. W/ all the powers bestowed Bush on this board I wish he'd win us a World Cup. Why must we toil for so long and not win the Cup?!?!?!

[DaveTV]

1080: Have you been in the military? Are you "of age"?

[watersnowdirt]

Just an observation, seems like a lot of people here are telling Sublime "It's your choice. But you better sign it." Interesting.

As a woman, this paper never came across my desk, but I can imagine I would be feeling much the same way Sublime is feeling. I love my country, and I honor those who fought for our freedom and who died fighting tyrants, but would I die, or want my brother to die, in a war that I believe is misguided and entirely self serving? Not a chance.

I also have to say that saying things like "your sentiment sucks". is so far out of line it's not even funny. If you don't agree with someone fine, but the world is made better by the fact that not everyone agrees.

ok. back to futbol talk.

[Greydon Clark]

The best thing that could ever happen to America would be compulsory military service. Encourage you house rep to support the Universal National Service Act (HR 163). A word from the author of the bill...

War's Burden Must Be Shared
by Congressman Charles Rangel
Some people have questioned my motives for introducing legislation to reinstitute the military draft and requiring alternative national service by young people who cannot serve.
In brief, my bill would replace the existing Selective Service law to establish a system in which all American men and women, as well legal permanent residents, aged 18 to 26, would be subject to compulsory military service or alternative civilian service. The President would determine the numbers needed and the means of selection. Deferments would be limited to those completing high school, up to the age of 20, with no exemptions for college or graduate school.
There are some who believe my proposal is really meant to show my opposition to a unilateral preemptive attack against Iraq by the U.S. Others believe that I want to make it clear that, if there is a war, there should be a more equitable representation of all classes of Americans making the sacrifice for this great country.
The fact is, both of these objectives are mine. I truly believe that decision-makers who support war would more readily feel the pain of conflict and appreciate the sacrifice of those on the front lines if their children were there, too. I don't make too much of the fact that only four members of the 107th Congress, which voted overwhelmingly in favor of war with Iraq, had children in the military. That is only a symptom of a larger problem, in which it is assumed that the defense of our country is the sole responsibility of paid volunteers.
But what if I am wrong in my desire for peace and in my doubts that Iraq is an imminent threat? If President Bush, the Congress and other supporters of an invasion are right and war is inevitable, then everyone who loves this country is bound by patriotic duty to defend it, or to share in the sacrifice of those placed in harm's way.
The disproportionately high representation of the poor and minorities in the enlisted ranks is well documented. Minorities comprise 35 percent of the military and Blacks 20 percent, well above their proportion of the general population. They, along with poor and rural Whites do more than their fair share of service in our ground forces. Yet the value of our foot soldiers is demeaned by those who promote the unproven notion that high-tech warfare will bring a quick and easy victory in Iraq.
I fear that the Bush administration's apparent determination to invade Iraq could thrust us into all-out war, perhaps a religious war, in the Middle East. I do not share Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's certainty that the U.S. has the capacity to defeat Iraq and North Korea in quick succession. Most dismaying is the absence of any discussion of the potential loss of life and the principle of shared sacrifice--in both the military and economic spheres.
In fact, the administration is using the rhetoric of war while engaging in politics as usual. While deploying thousands of troops to the Middle East, the President is promoting $600 billion in additional tax cuts which will primarily benefit the most affluent Americans, those whose sons and daughters are least likely to set foot on the sands of Iraq.
If objections to his economic proposal are "class warfare," as the President has said, then President Bush himself has started the war.

[1080Rider]

Originally posted by DaveTV
1080: Have you been in the military? Are you "of age"?

Never been in the military. I am however "over age." Don't think they'd want me now.

[Ripzalot]

Originally posted by Mulletizer
Let's not forget that ski bummin' in Switzerland is a perfectly acceptable way of dodging the draft.

ahem! don't blow my cover.

[Jumper Bones]

To the guy who started this thread -

I'm in the military right now, so maybe I can clarify/settle some things. First off, as far as registering for the selective service goes - that is part of your duties as an American citizen. As a skier, I can fully understand why you'd rather avoid this - the services get in the way of skiing. Hell, most jobs do. There's being sent off on orders during winters, oh and that whole possibility of dying thing. And being forced to submit to an agenda that you don't agree with, and losing your freedom of speach to a certain degree. I can understand why you'd rather avoid that and not have to possibly face it.

At the same time, like I said, that's part of your civic duties. You can choose to not register, that's cool. It's highly unlikely the feds will ever chase you down and jail you like they supposedly can. However, do not ever expect to collect social security. Or Medicare/Medicaid. And, don't ever expect any kind of federal job (including any forest service work). Just realize that an impassioned decision, one VERY SMALL decision you make at 18 when you're thinking more with hormones than with brain cells, will affect you when you're 80. Realize that it's a blanket package, take-it-or-leave-it. And you can't draw from a pot you never put anything into - and I sure as fuck don't want to pay for dead weight. The stroke of a pen counts as a deposit.

Then there's that whole liklihood-of-you-being-drafted issue. I can tell you for one thing, the draft will honestly never happen. As others have pointed out, in Vietnam draftees were called, while the Reserves and National Guard, for the most part, did not go. In today's day and age, the reverse is the case. I can also tell you that by and large, the military DOES NOT WANT draftees. The military has changed dramatically since Vietnam, and is a shadow of its former cold-war self. Honestly we don't have the facilities to house, train, and equip that many people. In fact, there's barely enough room to handle the influx of people following Sept. 11th - after Basic Training, I had to sit idly for a month working details in Texas while awaiting a slot for my technical school. Would you believe the Air Force, right now, is looking to get rid of over 16,000 people? It's overmanned in some career fields, and is over its congressionally authorized manning-numbers. It's going to work out good for me as that's my ticket into the Reserves doing a different job than I am now, but it's still hard to believe.

Draftees are a pain in the ass too, as they don't want to be there. And finally, we just don't have the money for all those guys. Their pay and clothing and food have to come from somewhere. Addiding draftees to the picture would cause the quality of life for everybody else to go dramatically downhill, and nobody in the military today wants to see that happen. Finally, there's the issue of need - if we have to resort to a draft to police Iraq, then something is fucked. The only conflict in which I could see us needing draftees, is if we, say, invaded China and India simultaneously. Not gonna happen. Those kinds of numbers just aren't needed.

Certain career fields definitely are in need - in the Air Force here it's the Sercurity Forces people, our cops and MPs; in the Army I'm sure it's the same. Look for them to attract their people not through forcing them in via a draft, but by sweetening the deals to come in - for instance, the AF is doing a 2-year enlistment deal (a first for the AF) for people to come in as cops, and they still get full GI bill benefits. Free college for 2 year's work! That's unheard of.

Now, as far as the Guard and Reserves are concerned...blame Clinton or his advisors for that one. The post-cold-war defense drawdown cut a lot of corners, and really eroded alot of the strength we used to have. I believe the AF used to be at the 800,000 people mark; nowadays it's just over 200,000, world-wide. Under the Total Force concept, the Guard and Reserves can double to triple those numbers, and when operated part-time like they're supposed to they provide the available contingency reponse while being at a fraction of the cost (while not being used, of course. The costs go up when they're used). That banner economy we experienced under Clinton was a combination of the payoff of the work of Reagan and Bush (making the world quite a bit safer, and a better free-market), as well as not having to pay nearly as much for defense or intelligence. It's like not paying your cable or telephone bills - suddenly you have more money, imagine that! But it all came due Sept 11th, when it finally sank into most people that the world really ISN'T as safe as most thought. It's a tragedy almost 4,000 had to die for people to see that.

Mobilizations of the Guard and Reserves happened before Georgie W. too - they happened alot under Clinton. Enforcing the no-fly-zones over northern and southern Iraq, keeping the sanctions and naval blockades in place, and then operations in Haiti, Rwanda, Bosnia, and especially Kosovo meant the Guard and Reserves had to be called in. The stink of it is, it probably didn't have to be that way - it's all about what reserve and guard units were assigned what kind of equipment and mission under the bottom-up review; in the Air Force the Guard and Reserves had a lot of the tanker and airlift resources that are needed in nearly every contingency. That's just the way it ended up.

I realize this was long and apologize, but hopefully it answered some questions.

[KQ]

I was just discussing the draft with a couple of friends the other night. Both these men were in the Vietnam lottery. One still has his draft card.

I can't remember what the last number called up was but one of the guys was very close to being called up when Nixon called off the draft.

When I asked them what it was like living with the possibility of being called up at anytime to go to Vietnam they both said it was hardest on their mothers.

[Buster Highmen]

Yeah, Greydon, that's the deal I read from Rangel too. Weirdly enough, I almost agree with it. An interesting perspective.

<tone change>

Special delivery . . . registered mail . . .
OH NO
You're gonna hafta sign fer this, buddy
OH NO
C'mon out heah, ya little sumbitch, I know you're in there
OH NO
Goddam little communist . . .
(weep, weep, weep)

I don't wanna get drafted
I don't wanna go
I don't wanna get drafted
PHOOEY!

I don't wanna get drafted
I don't wanna go
I don't wanna get drafted
NO-OH-WOH-OH-WOH . . .

Roller skates 'n disco
It's a lot of fun
I'm too young 'n stupid
To operate a gun

LaCelia Jackson! Come on down!
I DON'T WANNA GET DRAFTED
Nancy Butterworth! Come on down!
I DON'T WANNA GET DRAFTED
You're the next contestants on SOOOOO WHAT!
I DON'T WANNA GET DRAFTED
And, but, also . . .
A new car!
I DON'T WANNA GET DRAFTED
But that's not all . . .

My-y-y sister don't wanna get drafted
She don't wanna go
My sister don't wanna get drafted
My-y-y sister don't wanna get drafted
She don't wanna go
My sister don't wanna get drafted
NO-OH-WOH-OH-WOh

Wars are really ugly
They're dirty and they're cold
I don't want nobody
To shoot me in the fox hole . . . fox hole

I don't wanna get drafted
I don't wanna get drafted
I don't wanna get drafted
I don't wanna get drafted

Wars are really ugly
They're dirty and they're cold
I don't want nobody
To shoot me in the fox hole . . . fox hole

Aiieeeeeeeee . . . shot in the fox hole
Aiieeeeeeeee . . . shot in the fox hole
Aiieeeeeeeee . . . shot in the fox hole
Aiieeeeeeeee . . . shot in the fox hole

"Leave my nose alone, please . . . "

[KQ]

THE VIETNAM LOTTERIES
A lottery drawing - the first since 1942 - was held on December 1, 1969, at Selective Service National Headquarters in Washington, D.C. This event determined the order of call for induction during calendar year 1970, that is, for registrants born between January 1, 1944, and December 31, 1950. Reinstitution of the lottery was a change from the "draft the oldest man first" method, which had been the determining method for deciding order of call.

There were 366 blue plastic capsules containing birth dates placed in a large glass container and drawn by hand to assign order-of-call numbers to all men within the 18-26 age range specified in Selective Service law.

With radio, film and TV coverage, the capsules were drawn from the container, opened, and the dates inside posted in order. The first capsule - drawn by Congressman Alexander Pirnie (R-NY) of the House Armed Services Committee - contained the date September 14, so all men born on September 14 in any year between 1944 and 1950 were assigned lottery number 1. The drawing continued until all days of the year had been paired with sequence numbers.

http://www.sss.gov/IMAGES/LOTTER1.jpg

Photo, above: Rep. Alexander Pirnie, R-NY, draws the first capsule in the lottery drawing held on Dec. 1, 1969. The capsule contained the date, Sept. 14.

[road trip]

Originally posted by KQ
When I asked them what it was like living with the possibility of being called up at anytime to go to Vietnam they both said it was hardest on their mothers.

Prior to going to Vietnam, my grandmother tried (unsuccessfully) to send my dad to Sweden to live with family.

[KQ]

Originally posted by road trip
Prior to going to Vietnam, my grandmother tried (unsuccessfully) to send my dad to Sweden to live with family.

Same thing with one of the guys I was talking to - his parents were Irish citizens and tried to convince him to go to Ireland but he opted to stay here and take his chances with the country he was born in.

[Greydon Clark]

Rangel's plan would lead to the extinction of the American chicken hawk. One species who's demise is sorely needed.

[longrange]

First of all it is your patriotic duty to defend your country and also do you really think just cause you might get drafted( highly unlikely unless WWIII starts) they will send you to go fight hand to hand with the enemy. IT is a technological war now, a push button war, the guys over in the sand box now are acting as police, which is stupid because we should just do our thing and get out, most of the fighting is done by covert ops. and special forces not in major ingagements like as NAM. but not wanting to fight for our country and defend us is just straight being a coward.

[KQ]

Hey Sublime - here's some Q&A's for you re: the draft -

What happens in a draft?

[KQ]

Originally posted by longrange
......do you really think just cause you might get drafted( highly unlikely unless WWIII starts) they will send you to go fight hand to hand with the enemy. IT is a technological war now, a push button war, the guys over in the sand box now are acting as police, which is stupid because we should just do our thing and get out, most of the fighting is done by covert ops. and special forces not in major ingagements like as NAM.

Whoa there partner - I think the men and women on Iraq would beg to differ with you. While it is true that technology plays a greater role in today's modern army, guerilla warfare is still very much alive and kicking.

[Jumper Bones]

Originally posted by Greydon Clark
Rangel's plan would lead to the extinction of the American chicken hawk. One species who's demise is sorely needed.

Word.

while I don't think we should have a draft, I do feel that there should be some sort of compulsory federal service, be it Peace Corps, Americorps, ze military, being a Park Ranger, or firefighting in the Forese Service. Something like that.

the Chickenhawk needs to die. One of the things that's been said in support of a draft is that there is an immense disparity between America and the military, that didn't used to exist - nearly everyone had some experience. While the volunteers work more efficiently and by and large want to be there, getting support from the public for what's needed is generally pretty tough. Witness Gore's cancellations of the military absentee votes in the Florida incident - nobody stood up for the deployed military people whose votes were thrown out.

[house]

not sure if this is what they do to everyone, but a friend of mine never registered, he just forgot/never thought about it. so a couple days ago he got a not so friendly reminder to do it, or it meant jail time. sounds fair huh

[Spats]

Originally posted by Blurred Elevens
If it was up to civilians to decide whether they want to possibly get killed or not, we would'nt have a sizeable army.
That's why there IS a draft.

Your attitude is terrifying.

It is up to every individual to decide whether they want to get possibly killed or not.

However, deciding that you don't want to register for the draft (or for Selective Service, which is what we're talking about here) has other consequences. There is no "opt out" or "bill me later" box.

If you are seriously concerned about being drafted after registering, you can register as a conscientious objector (CO). This does not require a religious basis, but it does require your belief that you cannot kill another human being be held "strongly and religiously". There are a lot of forms and bureaucracy to go through, and you may still have to serve in a non-combat capacity. However, if these are GENUINELY your beliefs, it looks a lot better to do it now than once a draft starts up.

[Spats]

The main reason there won't be a draft is because George Jr. and the Republicans know what happened last time there was a draft -- it turned a whole generation of young people into left-wing radicals.

Nothing will change someone's attitude of "We need to be the world's asskicker" than a reply of "OK, your turn to strap on a gun and go kick ass".

[Tippster]

The only conflict in which I could see us needing draftees, is if we, say, invaded China and India simultaneously. Not gonna happen...

That's because getting involved in a land-war in Asia is one of the "Classic Blunders."



"Stop Rhyming! I mean it!"

"Anybody want a peanut?"

[Blurred Elevens]

Originally posted by Mulletizer
By that rationale America would have atacked her own East coast. For nearly 25 years Irish Republican terrorists who killed other Irish fighters but mainly innocent Irish and British civilians (in their hundreds) were funded predominantly by East coast Americans (ahead of various other nefarious fund-raising schemes). At certain points in the "conflict" most of their weapons were even tracable to Boston and New York gun shops. Pretty cool, huh

Terrorism on a grander scale, you know, like killing 3000 people in a morning is more relevant in this discussion.

If you can't see the difference, than you're too dumb to debate with.

[InspectorGadget]

Originally posted by Jetter
while I don't think we should have a draft, I do feel that there should be some sort of compulsory federal service, be it Peace Corps, Americorps, ze military, being a Park Ranger, or firefighting in the Forest Service. Something like that.

Other than sentence structure, I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by Tippster
That's because getting involved in a land-war in Asia is one of the "Classic Blunders."



"Stop Rhyming! I mean it!"

"Anybody want a peanut?"

As you wish.

[DougW]

Originally posted by Tippster
That's because getting involved in a land-war in Asia is one of the "Classic Blunders."

INCONCEIVABLE!!!!

Most militaries don't want a mandatory service as there are really not that many entry levels positions anymore short of a full conflict which needs lots of ground pounders. I think most of the countries that had it are getting rid of it , thinking France and Germany, as with a high tech military it just doesn't pay to train people for a year and see them go. Sure you can pay them nothing but you end up with higher training costs. The US armed forces already has a pretty high turnover rate somethg that they're always trying to reduce esp. in the skilled/ high tech trades.


Lots of examples of peace time conscripts being put into battle and being next to useless.

BUT on the other hand it was the French civi soldiers that said no way "NOn" when the pros ( Paras) when they wanted to overthrow the French Gov't in the late 50s. Its not a good thing when the Military gets too far removed from its popuation.

[13]

Originally posted by Jetter
while I don't think we should have a draft, I do feel that there should be some sort of compulsory federal service, be it Peace Corps, Americorps, ze military, being a Park Ranger, or firefighting in the Forese Service.

This is something I agree strongly with.