shrinking Swinger 4way air / neg spring?

**Yeti** · 11-20-2006, 02:51 PM

I have a 2003 VT2 with a (presumably original 2003) Swinger 4-way air. During the course of a ride this weekend, the travel shrunk by about half. Pumping the air spring up to 300 lbs, the piston only extends as far as the "25% sag" line. Bleeding all air pressure out of the shock, the piston retracts completely into the air sleeve.

I've done some research over at mtbr, and found three relevant threads:
"Just got my 4-way apart after getting it stuck down"
"air has leaked past the piston of my 4 way, collapsing the shock by half travel."
"Why does Swinger 3-way suck "in" with 0 psi?"

In some of those threads, people report opening up the shock to "reset the negative pressure".

I also contacted Answer, who said, "The shock has sucked down and will have to be returned for service. You need to have your local shop contact us for an RA# to send the shock in for service. DO NOT TRY TO TAKE THIS SHOCK APART!" This is consistent with their service manual (2004 version, PDF, which says, "If the shock returns to the short travel position, it is not serviceable and the entire shock must be replaced. WARNING: Attempting to service a shock with this condition could result in injury or possible death."

So what's the scoop? Was I really risking life and limb last night when I started to unscrew the air sleeve? If I get the sleeve off, am I going to shoot the can in one direction and oil in every other direction? Or is this something I can tinker with myself?

Compounding all of this, I understand Answer has discontinued seal kits for their '03 products. Anyone know the correct shock dimensions (eye-to-eye and travel) for a modern replacement for the '03 Giant VT2?

**kidwoo** · 11-20-2006, 03:31 PM

Yeah doing yourself the exact same things that a manitou tech does in another zip code leads to cancer. It's true.

I've never taken apart a swinger but I've worked on plenty of fox air shocks which occasionally do the same thing. "resetting" the negative chamber just means, depressurizing the shock disassembling it all (carefully and slowly since there's likely some pressurized gas in the neg chamber), regreasing with a thin grease, and putting it back together. That's with fox, I imagine the swingers aren't too different. Air shocks aren't that complex.

If manitou had their way, you should never work on any of their forks or shocks. Which is stupid because they're manitous and they will need something fixed sooner or later.

**Yeti** · 11-20-2006, 03:41 PM

Manitou service manual talks about putting it back together in a bath of damping oil, which is something I don't have. Now I've gotta figure out where to come up with that, and whether the summed cost of all the tools and bullshit I'll need minus the value of the knowhow exceeds the cost of just sucking up and buying a new shock.

**kidwoo** · 11-20-2006, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Yeti

Manitou service manual talks about putting it back together in a bath of damping oil, which is something I don't have. Now I've gotta figure out where to come up with that, and whether the summed cost of all the tools and bullshit I'll need minus the value of the knowhow exceeds the cost of just sucking up and buying a new shock.

A freezer bag filled with fork oil is a "bath of damper oil" so you can do it if you're motivated. I've worked on a coil shock doing this.

They must have an open damping system vs the closed cartridge in fox shocks.

Like I said, I haven't worked on a swinger air shock but if you're not intimidated by it, I'm sure it's a simple process barring replacing anything broken. Do you have a separte valve on this thing for the negative chamber or is it just an spv valve and a main air pressure valve?

Maybe flowtron's had one of these things open. Probably should find out what manitou wants to fix it if you don't feel like dealing with it. If you do decide to replace it, look at something more user friendly like a fox rp3.

**Yeti** · 11-20-2006, 04:00 PM

Replacement shock would be a 7.5x2.0, according to my recent research.

I like the freezer bag idea. Apparently it is an open damping system. In order to keep air out of the negative spring, you have to reassemble the whole thing under oil.

From the Fox service manuals I've seen, they're much more user-serviceable. Contrast Manitou, which stops carrying seal kits for shocks 3 years old and older, and supposedly won't even look at anything that old themselves. (My Swinger with gold air sleeve end = unsupported as of this fall.)

**kidwoo** · 11-20-2006, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Yeti

(My Swinger with gold air sleeve end = unsupported as of this fall.)

If that's the case, try fixing it yourself. If it doesn't work, time to upgrade.

Still probably worth a call though.

**flowtron** · 11-20-2006, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by kidwoo

A freezer bag filled with fork oil (??!!)

Maybe flowtron's had one of these things open.

No way, no how.
I recommend replacement.
Find the i2i in the manual or the website and get an RP3.

**kidwoo** · 11-20-2006, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by flowtron

No way, no how.
I recommend replacement.
Find the i2i in the manual or the website and get an RP3.

I did it with a rear shock and it works (is working) just dandy.
The idea is assembly without air introduction.........the freezer bag just reduces the amount of the size of the bath. It's no different than what a shock manufacturer does with a rebuild.

Don't be skeerd.

**gravitylover** · 11-21-2006, 07:50 AM

Or you could have your local shop contact Hawley, a distributor in SC, they are a Manitou service center and will have the replacement seals. After Manitou stops supporting a product their service centers get all of the replacement parts they had left in stock.

**kidwoo** · 11-21-2006, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by gravitylover

After Manitou stops supporting a product their service centers get all of the replacement parts they had left in stock.

Good call. I didn't know that.........and I need a spring for an old fork.

**gravitylover** · 11-21-2006, 08:00 PM

It's the same way I latched onto BTI before anybody had heard of them. They used to have all of the old Rock Shox parts in the late '90's. Even now they are still the "go to guys" for NOS from R S. If all else fails call Cane Creek and get the new Double Barrel. Easily the best shock I've EVER come across. They custom build each one for the rider/bike. Turnaround time is about two-three weeks and they're a bit pricey but they are so superior to anything else on the market it's worth every bit of it if you can appreciate the difference between good and better.

http://canecreek.com/double_barrel.html