Avalanche Flotation safety device prototypes

**LeeLau** · 03-05-2007, 10:45 AM

I look forward to trying these out. If the prototypes don't make it till next year, that's fine too

**jtwassoc** · 03-14-2007, 08:59 AM

The last 6 prototype devices shipped out this morning. If you are on the list to receive one and haven't gotten one by the end of this week, please be patient. We will get you one over the course of the summer. As we stated earlier we needed to redesign the harness after the Revelstoke testing, and we are now waiting on two things. First we are waiting for additional harness material to arrive from the manufacturer, and second we are waiting for our lead engineer to return from his 5 week honeymoon in New Zealand, the lucky bastard.

Several dozen prototypes are now in the field and we will post results as soon as we start hearing from people.

Thanks again to everyone for their help and patience.............

**Jer** · 03-14-2007, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by jtwassoc

No test dummies in this slide

Dang! Waste of a GREAT slide!

**LeeLau** · 03-14-2007, 01:11 PM

Thanks - I got my prototype just in time for 2 weeks touring in the northern Selkirks. Will wear it in the field - hopefully without using it

**Phatstix** · 03-15-2007, 05:30 PM

The proto arrived in good order today....looks sweet! Thanks!

(pm sent)

**Camel Toad** · 03-19-2007, 11:47 PM

Worn mine a bit. Makes my backpack sit up high (bd covert avalung). Would be great if it was integrated into the pack (is bd interested in licensing this...they should be). Not too heavy, but i notice it mostly due to the pack sitting on it - am going to play with reducing the harness pad next time out. Otherwise no complaints, well other than the red ball hangs directly in the middle of my bum, which was duly pointed out by a ski partner, she seemed to get a good laugh from it. I'll report back after I get some more time with it.

What is the final word on air travel with these? heading to b.c. for a week+ of touring and will take it along, but don't feel like having it confiscated or getting harassed for traveling with it.

**Toby** · 03-20-2007, 12:45 AM

I took an ABS canister/trigger on my last flight from ZRH -> DXB -> PER. It took about 4-6 weeks to get prior approval from the airline (Emirates). When I checked-in I mentioned it (like you're supposed to) and they said "Ah, yes" like they expected me to bring it up. There were no problems.

Prior approval was a PITA. I first tried to get it by phoning Emirates in Australia. I spent a lot of time on hold and no-one knew what I was talking about. I got a random email address as a last resort. The email recipient didn't really have authority to grant permission and it was forwarded on to Group Security Head Office in Dubai. In my email to request permission I was polite and sent a copy of the IATA Dangerous Goods slip and something else (don't remember but basically everything I could find on the ABS websites). I imagine the process would be similar with these devices and the same Dangerous Goods regulation would apply.

**jtwassoc** · 03-20-2007, 09:22 AM

Camel Toad....... We don't recommend taking it on a plane to British Columbia. One of our crew got pulled off a flight in BC after security found a device in his checked baggage. Sure, he had it cleared by the airline when he checked in, but he still got yanked off the plane a few minutes before takeoff, missed the flight and spent the next few hours with "the man" explaining what the heck his device was.

It is legal to fly with avalanche flotation devices (AFDs), but it so rarely happens that the security people are not used to seeing the devices and usually hassle you. You also can't ship it on ahead of you via UPS or FEDEX or the Post Office. The devices are considered hazardous cargo due to the charged gas bottles, and you need a permit to ship hazardous cargo. Unfortunately, until the use of AFDs becomes commonplace, you can expect a MAJOR hassle if you attempt to fly with a device.

**Jer** · 03-20-2007, 12:41 PM

Just got it. Looks good - relatively light & compact. Hopefully functional.

JTW, you guys want reviews here in the open, or would you rather keep the chatter in private?

**jtwassoc** · 03-22-2007, 07:46 AM

We wouldn't have our prototypes getting tested right now if it weren't for this forum, so go ahead and tell us what you think David Witherspoon and anyone else who wants to chime in....

**jtwassoc** · 03-31-2007, 07:39 AM

Update for anyone keeping up on the progress of the avalanche flotation device.

Comments are starting to trickle in from the field testers, and right off the comments are similar to the ones we heard from the locals in Revelstoke. And, of course, it all comes down to how the device interacts with your.....um......backside.

First off our field testers have received several comments from their ski buds (see Camel Toad above) about how cute the red rip-cord ball looks bouncing along behind the user. The rip-cord tether sticks out from the device about 4 inches and has about a one inch diameter hard plastic ball attached to the end. We varied the length of the tether (braided wire) on several devices. The whole idea is that you can reach around to the bottom corner of your fanny pack and yank on the rip-cord with your gloves on. Some people have suggested that we move the rip-cord along the waist belt, and have the red pull ball down at your right or left side. Of course, this adds a lot of cost, so it's a no go at this point. We did make a prototype of the side pull design, and it is in Alaska being tested as we speak.

Other testers felt that the device should incorporate an actual climbing harness, but once again this is cost prohibitive.

So far it looks as if this summer will be spent on further design of the harness, in order to more fully secure the device to the user. Presently the device is secure enough to remain attached to the user during an avalanche, but further work needs to be done to secure the device to the user so that it is comfortable......

Anyone testing one of the devices can feel free to comment here on anything good or bad about the device.

We will be contacting each field tester after the season and interviewing them about their experience using the device.

**hemas** · 03-31-2007, 08:29 AM

Just a few toughs from an outsider... While an integrated climbing-harness will bump the price up, they might not necessary be that expensive.

A good example if that is the Czeck firm Rock Empire, which produces a skitouring harness:
http://www.rockempire.cz/goodsdetail...&nLanguageID=2

It's not that complicated, and rather cheap:
http://www.hudy.cz/goodsdetail_ls.as...&nLanguageID=1

Where as 590 Czeck Korunas is around 32 Canadian dollars $, and that's the retail-price from a shop.

So the actual costs might not be that much more.

**Tri-Ungulate** · 03-31-2007, 12:36 PM

I found that, between the AFD and my pack, that wearing 2 waistbelts was bulky. However, it is not recommended that the AFD be attached directly to the pack should the connection to the pack or the pack itself not hold in a slide. This makes sense.

So I made a few minor mods so it would ride a bit better with a pack. First I took the hipbelt padding off the AFD, leaving only the main webbing belt:

Then, using the Fastex ladderloc where the top hip padding webbing ran in, I put in a loop of webbing (with a triglide) and attached a mini-biner.

The biners attach to the snugging straps on the pack hipbelt:

Like this:

You put the AFD on first, then your pack, then clip the minibiners to the pack. The advantage is twofold: the AFD is attached to you by the OEM belt, which is as it should be. The pack holds the AFD up and supports it. Even though the pack-AFD attachments are not meant to be weight-bearing in the event of a slide, they add a couple more points of attachment to the system. The AFD still bobs a bit while hiking and skiing, but I'm trying to get it dialed.

A disadvantage is that you have to unclip the minibiners every time you take the pack off, but this is similar to the case with the Deuter ABS packs, at least if you're using the leg loops which have to be unbuckled if the pack is to be removed. At least with the minibiners it's relatively painless snapping them on and off. You can also transfer the AFD to other packs easily:

I'm thinking of a system to extend the pull tab, as reaching around behind the pack might be difficult in an emergency, but I'm not sure yet how this would be best accomplished. Very basic leg loops and a front clip-in could probably be easily retrofitted to the AFD webbing belt as an aftermarket mod. I'll prolly goof around with my current harnesses to see how they might be incorporated. Thanks jtwassoc for the trial.

**Jer** · 03-31-2007, 07:41 PM

I frequently ski with just an Avalung pro vest, which has a small zip-on pack. That doesn't interfere much with the AFD, so I just snugged the AFD on using the provided belt & padding.

The buckle system is not easily adjustable, but once properly adjusted, the AFD was pretty comfortable. It didn't bob against my butt, though it rides a little lower than I'd like. I was able to forget it pretty quickly.

I then bashed it (and myself) all over the mountain. I was curious to see how it would handle being fallen on & dragged through the snow. No problem. In some falls, it digs up a little more snow than I usually get. I left the ripcord velcroed to the AFD, not wanting to accidentally trigger it so soon after getting it. It stayed there. The velcro flap over the balloon also stayed shut, though I had to readjust it a bit when I got home. I could feel the ball on the ripcord a bit now and then, but nothing problematic.

More later. I like the idea of lifting the AFD a bit by clipping it up to a pack.

**iskibc** · 03-31-2007, 08:55 PM

First thoughts:

Too bulky.
Should be integrated into a pack, not a separate piece of gear.
Rides up on the hips.
Difficult with larger packs.
Ripcord should be more "out front". It's a bit out of the way.

To be honest, I would only wear this on a deep pow day if I were thinking of venturing into suspect terrain and the approach was short. Would not bring this on a longer tour.

**cmor** · 03-31-2007, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by iskibc

To be honest, I would only wear this on a deep pow day if I were thinking of venturing into suspect terrain and the approach was short. Would not bring this on a longer tour.

This is why I have trouble bringing my avalung along. In my mind I never venture into suspect terrain. I never walk out the door and think today could be the day I get caught. But of course in reality I'm in avalanche terrain everyday.

**iskibc** · 04-01-2007, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by cmor

This is why I have trouble bringing my avalung along. In my mind I never venture into suspect terrain. I never walk out the door and think today could be the day I get caught. But of course in reality I'm in avalanche terrain everyday.

Very true. Perceived risk vs. actual risk.

The choice of wearing it or not wouldn't necessarily come down to the terrain, but more on the distance and length of the day. I don't think I would find myself wearing this device on a long traverse, or a lengthy approach mostly because of the weight and bulk factors. If it were integrated into a backpack I would be more inclined to wear it all of the time. I wear my avalung all of the time because it fits nicely, is not bulky, and weighs next to nothing.

I think a lot of the problems can be solved by reworking the harnessing setup on this device. Maybe play around with something along the same lines as a climbing harness, where you have leg loops. That may help with holding the device in place.

**TeleHoar** · 04-01-2007, 08:55 AM

I have done three tours with this now, some side country and some backcountry.
Yes I wore it on the lifts one day to access some BC gates.

First impressions are it is light enough and unobtrusive enough that I would wear it every day of touring. If I felt a beacon was warranted I would also be inclined to wear this pack as well.

Yesterday I tried it with my other fanny pack (Lowe Pro for the camera). AFD in the back and lowe pro in the front. Seemed to work fine all day.

It does get in the way of larger packs, but I wear a smaller camelback and it seems to work pretty well with it. I do like that it stays on all the time. I am pulling off and dropping the pack alot on the tour and it is comforting that the fanny pack NEVER comes off at all.

I did find a lot of snow packed in behind it (between the pack and my ass) at the end of the day. but I am a beater and spent some time rolling around in the snow.

Once again; so far I like it, I would be inclined to wear it for any and all tours.

seconded for the pull cord up front somehow.

If I had a bigger pack for hut trips or overnighters I would have to figure something else out, But so far I haven't come to that.

**jtwassoc** · 04-09-2007, 04:00 PM

Thanks a lot for all your comments. Anyone who is trying out the device can feel free to chime in and comment.

After the season we will be contacting everyone and getting feedback on the device, and we'll post the results here.

**jtwassoc** · 04-13-2007, 10:09 AM

Update for anyone helping us test out the avalanche flotation device prototypes.

First off there are a couple helicopter skiing companies with devices, with both guides and the occasional client strapping on the prototype for a run or two. So far everyone we’ve talked to using aircraft to ski or board is interested in incorporating the device into their backpack and not using it as a separate fanny pack. But again, that is only a few people so these are preliminary results at best. Everyone who has a prototype can remove the harness from the device and use the straps provided to strap it directly to the bottom of their backpack if they wish to. This also eliminates some weight from the device.

If your season is about to end you may want to consider inflating the device and trying to ski or board with the device inflated. One of the requirements for an operating AFD (avy flotation device) is that the user be able to continue to ski, snowboard or snowmobile after the device has inflated, enabling the user to possibly ski or ride out of the avalanche. So we need to know how the device feels and acts while you work your way down the hill.

You may keep your device over the summer to use next season if you wish, or you can inflate it, examine it, deflate it and send it back to the lab in Minnesota where we will rework the device and get it back to you for next season. DO NOT ship us a device that has not been inflated as the gas cylinder is considered hazardous shipping material and you need a permit to ship such items. When the device has been inflated it is no longer considered hazardous material. You can ship the device back to us via UPS, FEDEX, US or Canadian Post. We will pay for the shipping, and we will refurbish and return the device to you.

Thanks again to everyone participating in the study of these devices. We will be contacting each prototype user directly to get feedback, which we will post here……

**LeeLau** · 04-25-2007, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by iskibc

First thoughts:

Too bulky.
Should be integrated into a pack, not a separate piece of gear.
Rides up on the hips.
Difficult with larger packs.
Ripcord should be more "out front". It's a bit out of the way.

First impressions are the same worn with a 30l pack. It forces the pack up on the body. Weight is not a factor.

**Jer** · 05-06-2007, 09:59 PM

Short video of bag inflation here.

**stantonbum1** · 05-07-2007, 05:23 AM

Have just skimmed through the thread so may have missed something.... If this is integrated into a pack will there be any significant differences from an ABS pack? and if so what would the advantages of this device be over an ABS pack.

Have no idea about the production costs but would be great to see a direct competitor to the ABS packs so that there would be a bit of price competition.

**Toby** · 05-07-2007, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by stantonbum1

Have just skimmed through the thread so may have missed something.... If this is integrated into a pack will there be any significant differences from an ABS pack? and if so what would the advantages of this device be over an ABS pack.

Cost? ABS bags are pricey. Even my 2ndhand one was pricey.

**Phatstix** · 05-14-2007, 12:22 PM

[QUOTE=stantonbum1;1265081]Have just skimmed through the thread so may have missed something.... If this is integrated into a pack will there be any significant differences from an ABS pack? and if so what would the advantages of this device be over an ABS pack.
QUOTE]

If the device could be attached to several different packs that would give this a big bump over the ABS pack.

I have very much the same opinion that ISKI has: The device doen't mix well with a larger pack for longer days. I don't mind the weight so much as it made my big pack sit funny. I really like the idea of being able to attach this to several packs depending on the day, which again, the ABS doesn't do.

All-in-all ... a great start to a very good idea.

Thanks.