Base file guide suggestions?

[jimbo4]

I'm looking to buy a base (and side file guide as well) file guide. Any opinions out there? SVST over the top, or worth the $75? How about the Swix? Appreciate any/all opinions.

[skinnyskier]

Yup, SVST works for me.

[Krash]

If you are using it alot, the SVST is the call. For moderate use the Beast's are much cheaper and work just as well. They will just wear out over time (bevel increase) but they will still last for years under most conditions

[nick > jesus]

d\The swix and the SVST seem needlessly expensive, and complex, i prefer the simple and inexpensive design of the beast

[Plakespear]

Just one thing I'd like to point out. Unless you are putting custom bevels on race skis, every new ski I have ever seen has had a 1 degree base bevel. So if you can swing it, the SVST guide will probably last you forever, as in you will never need another.

[Toby]

^ I thought you were young, but your hands look really old.

[carl jay]

just get the plastic ones - unless youre racing the mega $$$$$$$ arent worth it

[upallnight]

SVST is absolutely worth it. It is very precise and built to last a lifetime.

Whatever you do, get fixed-angle base and side-edge guides...none of the adjustable stuff. They're nowhere near as precise as the fixed guides.

SVST tools rock, but they cost more. You might not appreciate them for what they are worth if you have never used lesser, inferior tools.

As for Nick's comment... Not sure what his base of experience is, but a plastic guide will never perform as good as a metal guide* -- and it will never last as long at the same level of precision.

__
* - Well, maybe it will for the first few uses, but they do flex and they do wear faster.

[nick > jesus]

As for Nick's comment... Not sure what his base of experience is,

I have been tuning two-four pairs of skis every week for the last four years, most of them race skis. I know FIS racers that free hand their edges (for tech events not speed) because they like to be able to feel their edge better that way, this is the reason i like the beast, but i dont like free handing. its personal prefrance for me. i have done it enough that the beast can work as well for me as anything else

[yooper]

Like Nick, I tune LOTS of skis. Often. SVST makes the best tools I've found. That said, unless you are pretty into tuning, I wouldn't even get a base guide. You should only set your base bevel once, then never touch it, other than to touch up nicks and burrs. New skis usually come with a 1 degree base bevel from the factory. When you get them reground, get the base bevel set at the shop at that time.

When I get my race skis ground, I have them ground flat, and thats it. They don't touch anything else. I set my own base bevels because I'm afraid of a shop overbeveling them. If you aren't a total tuning snob, or a racer, I'd probably recommend just saving your money and work on the side edges only.

[nick > jesus]

, I wouldn't even get a base guide. You should only set your base bevel once, then never touch it, other than to touch up nicks and burrs.

thats part of why i don't really like the SVST and SWIX models, with those i see lots people taking waaay too much material off the base edge

[jimbo4]

This has been an education...
-Yooper, I primarily want to deburr/maintain my edges. So I would think that in addition to a side edge guide, a base guide is also neccessary. Don't you think?
-Nick, what is it about the Swix and SVST guides that cause more material to be removed than say the BEAST, or other file guides?

Thanks again in advance for the responses.
Jim

[upallnight]

thats part of why i don't really like the SVST and SWIX models, with those i see lots people taking waaay too much material off the base edge

i need to respectfully offer a different opinion here.

how much material gets taken away is a function of the file being used and the heavy-handedness of the person doing the tuning. it's not really a function of the guide.

all the guide does is hold a constant angle and a metal guide made to precise specifications (eg, SVST) will (a) be more precise than a guide of other material; (b) flex less through each stroke and (c) retain its precision longer.

most folks take way too much material off the edges because they think one has to press hard on a file to get it to work. don't confuse technique with the tool. people who take off too much material with each stroke need to refine their technique. at least if they use a precise guide, they'll have a better chance that the edge will wind up at the proper angle.

for the record, i totally agree that people need to take care with the base. that said, deburring and polishing (SVST actually makes some very fine ceramic triangle stones that work well with any base guide) are very safe.

[yooper]

This has been an education...
-Yooper, I primarily want to deburr/maintain my edges. So I would think that in addition to a side edge guide, a base guide is also neccessary. Don't you think?

If all you are doing is deburring/polishing with a ceramic stone or fine diamond stone, I don't really think you need a guide at all. I just free hand it. You aren't going to change the bevel with a stone, so you really can't hurt anything. The base bevel guides are really designed just to set the initial bevel. If you really want to use a guide just to be safe, and you only plan on using it with a stone.... just buy the cheapest one you can find. In this case, I would say SVST would be WAY overkill.

i need to respectfully offer a different opinion here.

how much material gets taken away is a function of the file being used and the heavy-handedness of the person doing the tuning. it's not really a function of the guide.

all the guide does is hold a constant angle and a metal guide made to precise specifications (eg, SVST) will (a) be more precise than a guide of other material; (b) flex less through each stroke and (c) retain its precision longer.

most folks take way too much material off the edges because they think one has to press hard on a file to get it to work. don't confuse technique with the tool. people who take off too much material with each stroke need to refine their technique. at least if they use a precise guide, they'll have a better chance that the edge will wind up at the proper angle.

for the record, i totally agree that people need to take care with the base. that said, deburring and polishing (SVST actually makes some very fine ceramic triangle stones that work well with any base guide) are very safe.

I agree with all of that. The problem with the Beast guide is that over time, you can cut into the plastic with your edges and potentially change the bevel that the tool creates.

In case anyone is wondering the formula,... one degree of base bevel = 1mm of thickness 60mm in from the edge. (it's a trig thing...) That is the way all good base edge guides are made. If you have one, measure it up... the piece that sits on the base, that props up the file, will be exactly 60mm from the edge. That's why the old school wrap of tape around the end of the file technique doesn't work... the angle of the file changes depending on the width of the ski.

SO... to check the base bevel you already have, take a true bar and make a mark 60mm from one end. (some true bars come with this mark.) Place the mark on the edge of the ski and lift up the end of the true bar until no light shines through underneath the metal edge of your ski. Note how far the end of the true bar is off the base of the ski. 1mm = 1 degree. (see diagram)



This is probably WAY outside the scope of what the average western mag needs to know or worry about, but if you live in the east, and/or race, it can be some good info...

[upallnight]

I agree with all of that. The problem with the Beast guide is that over time, you can cut into the plastic with your edges and potentially change the bevel that the tool creates.

yep...that's exactly the problem.

one point to note is that there is a pretty tough plastic piece on the SVST guide that doesn't affect the cutting angle but does enable the guide to slide smoothly along the edge. it is replaceable should that need ever arise. key point: no need to buy a new guide.

most other (plastic) guides have to be tossed when they wear down and, as said above, they do wear down faster.

[upallnight]

This has been an education...
-Yooper, I primarily want to deburr/maintain my edges. So I would think that in addition to a side edge guide, a base guide is also neccessary. Don't you think?

just one point with respect to yoopers response to your question:

deburring, maintaining and polishing your base edges *shouldn't* require a guide in the hands of an experienced tuner.

the reason why i think you should have one (not so much for deburring) is that you are learning and need to develop a feel for the right angles. a guide can help ensure you don't do any 'damage' during those activities. (the stones you should be using for polishing should be soft and should not affect the angle...but, again, if you're learning you might make some errors as you go.)

if you can afford the base guide, go for it. a non-racer should only need to maintain your base edges once for every 3-4 times you work with your side edges...and even then it is deburr/polish...*not* file.

[Treepinner]

For simplying maintaining edges, something like the Toko Ergo Plus is a much better option. Use a diamond stone to knock down the rock hits. Then the file that comes with the Ergo Plus to sharpen -- it does both base (0.5 or 1) and side (88 or 89). Not for racers but great for everyone else.

[upallnight]

For simplying maintaining edges, something like the Toko Ergo Plus is a much better option. Use a diamond stone to knock down the rock hits. Then the file that comes with the Ergo Plus to sharpen -- it does both base (0.5 or 1) and side (88 or 89). Not for racers but great for everyone else.

i said it up above, but the dedicated fixed-angle side edge and base guides are giant leaps better than the adjustable guides. if the guy is at all serious about tuning, it's better to cough up a few extra $$ and get the dedicated guides. they will last forever.

also, the guy definitely doesn't need to use the file on his base edges.

those adjustable guides are convenient, but they really come nowhere close in precision and feel to the dedicated guides. one may decide that they don't care about the difference, but there IS a difference and it's not subtle when you use both.

[Treepinner]

Erm, the Ergo Plus *is* a fixed angle guide, you just have a choice of angles. Yes, it's plastic so it may only last 5 seasons BFD. And ain't nuthin wrong with a file on the base edge if you don't get carried away.

[upallnight]

Erm, the Ergo Plus *is* a fixed angle guide, you just have a choice of angles. Yes, it's plastic so it may only last 5 seasons BFD. And ain't nuthin wrong with a file on the base edge if you don't get carried away.

wait a sec...didn't you say that it adjusts to 88 or 89 and 0.5 or 1? that's not a fixed angle device.

the adjustments on those devices are convenient, but they are not as precise as the dedicated, fixed (1) angle devices. they're just not.

the 'it will only last 5 seasons BFD' comment also kind of misses the point. the plastic devices flex, which further contributes to their imprecision. again, one may not care, but the difference is there.

durability is a separate issue. i agree that 5 years is fine...but if the device doesn't work as one hopes on day 1, it really doesn't matter how it performs at day 30, day 365, and day 1,500.

most beginners *do* get carried away with the files, thinking they need to press on them to get them to cut. hence, the advice for this guy is to go easy (or not at all) with the file on the base edge...at least until he gets experience in using files on the side edge, where doing a bit of damage is less of an issue.

for the record, i use a panzer file on my base edge to set the initial angle. during the season, i mostly deburr & polish my base edges, but i occasionally hit them with a file (definitely not every time). it's all safe, but beginners (we've all been there) can do a bit more damage, especially with sharp tools on the base.

it's all just my opinion (except the stuff about plastic vs. metal), so the original poster can take the info and decide what to do with it.

just my $0.02.

[Treepinner]

It's a fancy file guide, not an adjustable guide, that is better designed than Beasty. The angles are fixed and it's small enough that taking off too much would be hard. (http://www.toko.ch/toko/katalog.asp?...tid=4844&sid=2)

[ill-advised strategy]

Just one thing I'd like to point out. Unless you are putting custom bevels on race skis, every new ski I have ever seen has had a 1 degree base bevel. So if you can swing it, the SVST guide will probably last you forever, as in you will never need another.

fwiw I really like a 1.5...it's an acquired taste

[upallnight]

It's a fancy file guide, not an adjustable guide, that is better designed than Beasty. The angles are fixed and it's small enough that taking off too much would be hard. (http://www.toko.ch/toko/katalog.asp?...tid=4844&sid=2)

thanks for the link, treepinner. does it do 2 angles for the edge and 2 for the base, or is only 1 angle for base and one for side and the user must get another for a different base/side angle?

what does the size have to do with taking off too much material? i find it's a function of how hard people press on the files.

[Treepinner]

2 and 2. Small files clog fast so they are self-limiting...you'd have to clean it with a file card a lot to do real damage ;-) Plus it's too small to bear down like with a full size file. This is really just a nice touch-up tool for rec skiers, easy to toss in the gear bag.

[jimbo4]

Do you know if the Toko will accept other standard 4" files/stones?