Becoming a Catski Guide

[glademaster]

I know that this is a total adolescent dream and a total JONG question and prolly thread, but I've been thinking about it too much not to post it. I think I want to become a cat skiing guide somewhere, or start/own a cat ski op when I become an adult. It seems like the ultimate skier job, and I think there isn't much that can stop me from doing it. Are any of you guides, or do any of you know guides? What is it like being a guide, what is involved in becoming one in the Lower 48? Canada? AK? Pay isnt important, you get to ski pow so much. What operations/locations would people think to be the best. Jong me, call me Max for pmag, but if I ever do this, I'll do my best to hook up maggots/minions with a discount. This is especially true if I ever own/start an operation, I'll be sure to have maggot only weeks wherever it is, and I'll never make people farm turns.

-Ben

[gonzo]

good goal max

[glademaster]

Haha, thanks Gonzo. I promise that if it works out, or better yet, before it ever works out, I will NOT write a book about it and post shoddily chapters of it here on the board. Anyone else have any anwsers to my questions? Thanks.

-Ben

[VTskibum]

Basics to running a successful Cat Operation:

1) Buy Cat
2) Learn Mountain/Area you'll be guiding in
3) Get Permit
4) Don't get anybody injured/killed

[ducktherope]

I know that the local Cat operator up here in Seattle (Cascade PowderCats) runs a class early each winter to become a "guest guide". A few of my buddies have taken it and seem to get called pretty regular to run as tailgunner. Links to this year's class info can be found at http://www.cascadepowdercats.com/AvalancheTraining.pdf.

I was actually up with the guys earlier this week and the main guide was discussing the bleak situation here in Washington. It seems that due to budget cutback's the state office to review and approve permits for new wilderness permits is closed. According to him that means no new cat operations, rafting operations, etc. Hopefully this is localized to here in Washington and will get fixed.

Good luck on your quest.

[TJ.Brk]

Go for it kid. No dream ever comes to completion without taking that first step. May great karma quide you on this path.

[Phil]

College of the cariboo adventure guide diploma

is now going to be the standard in canada for guides.


Good luck.

two cents : look listen feel : get out there, talk and make contacts. And get out there. tour, trip, play and get educated by the best out there, it will all come together at the right time.


Let us know !

[glademaster02]

Where would it be easiest to become a guide, or better yet start my own operation? Lower 48, Canada, or AK? I'm thinking primarily about accessing terrain that is not at high risk to slide, or at least not large slides(trees, shorter steep shots) which areas have the best terrain like that. I'm thinking of having the following skis in my demo fleet: Spatula, DB Tabla Rasa, and Iggy FFF, maybe some G4's for the spring. But back to my question.
Thanks,
-Ben

[L7]

So young, so naive.

Seriously there's nothing wrong with a dream and if you set reasonable goals to attain that dream there's no reason it can't happen.

I don't know how old you are or what point you're starting from. Teaching skiing is a good way to get a few things down. Dealing with clients, client needs, ski proficiency, group management are a few of the skills applicable. Avalanche awareness courses are a good start and can get you contacts to point directions for furthering that.

You should check out Mike Weigles Heli skiing site. He offers guiding courses that are well regarded in the industry. I'm not sure of the Caribou College course becoming the standard. I know of the course and some who have taken it but don't know of any to be guiding.

Mike Weigle started some years back to focus on people with strong teaching backgrounds because the UCMG graduates often lacked the people skills needed (among other things). I know many that have done his courses that have or are currently guiding.

The main thing determining if Canada is easy for you to pursue your dream is going to be work permits. We have a very established industry and lots of access but a government bureaucracy that doesn't exactly make it easy.

[JR]

What he said.

Also, be prepared to be a glorified babysitter, wipping butts and occasionally kissing them. Yes you get to ski, but your time is not your own. It isn't like going out ripping with your pals. Be prepared for the fact that your day does not end when the cat hits the corral. Most guides I know are expected to serve dinner to and eat with the clients. "Oh Yah Franz, you were amazing today, you sure are one hell of a skier" Now imagine this conversation 6 or 7 days a week all winter long. It's not for me but maybe it is for you.

As well, there is nothing wrong with having a goal, achieving it, and then deciding to do something else. Hell glademaster, what is the worst that can happen if you become a guide and discover that it is not for you. You will have gained some invaluable experience and life skills along the way and you'll have some great stories to tell. And who know, you might even like it.

[glademaster]

Anyone else? Bueller? Bueller?

-Ben

[Phil]

Originally posted by L7
So young, so naive.

You should check out Mike Weigles Heli skiing site. He offers guiding courses that are well regarded in the industry. I'm not sure of the Caribou College course becoming the standard. I know of the course and some who have taken it but don't know of any to be guiding.

Mike Weigle started some years back to focus on people with strong teaching backgrounds because the UCMG graduates often lacked the people skills needed (among other things). I know many that have done his courses that have or are currently guiding.

Good points Lsiete

There are two schools North of the boarder :

The CSGA and the ACMG.

CSGA might be more catski guide specific

ACMG is more thorough and The College of the Cariboo is the only provider now.
Takes a long and dedicated resume to get accepted : check out the prerecs and if it is for you get on it right now.

UIAGM is the ultimate master degree.

[joshbu]

South of the border, AMGA is getting better.

Also, instead of lots of classes and such, you could take the grizzled b/c skier approach.

Basically, start skiing in the B/C all the time. If you put in 100 days a year in each of the the Cascades, Selkirks, Alps, and Rockies along with logs books the meticulously detaill all of you trips with avy roses, snowpack observations, pit logs, etc.. many guide corporations would consider that as valuable as the classes, maybe more.

[JR]

Originally posted by joshbu
South of the border, AMGA is getting better.

Also, instead of lots of classes and such, you could take the grizzled b/c skier approach.

Basically, start skiing in the B/C all the time. If you put in 100 days a year in each of the the Cascades, Selkirks, Alps, and Rockies along with logs books the meticulously detaill all of you trips with avy roses, snowpack observations, pit logs, etc.. many guide corporations would consider that as valuable as the classes, maybe more.

This is definately a far better approach than going to College of the Caribou or some similar outfit. Combining this with some classes on First Aid, Mountain Rescue, and avalanche courses would be ideal. Lets face it, if you are green, digging pits and recording profiles is not much good if you don't have some basis on which to build.

[cj001f]

Originally posted by JR
Combining this with some classes on First Aid, Mountain Rescue, and avalanche courses would be ideal.

Here are the requirements for the ACMG Assistant Ski Guide program (offered through college of the Cariboos):

"Personal Skiing Standard - you must demonstrate smoothly linked turns in all terrain, appropriate adjustment of style and technique to snow conditions, and stable, smooth, turns at all times in ungroomed, backcountry snow. It is strongly recommended that candidates complete a Level 2 ski instructor course from the Canadian Ski Instructors Alliance before applying.

Experience - candidates are chosen from those applicants who can demonstrate that they have spent at least three years developing the hazard evaluation skills, leadership skills, and are comfortable in a winter environment. These applicants have communication skills, preferably teaching skills, and are motivated to accept the responsibility of being a professional ski guide.

Avalanche Course - the CAA level 1 plus experience, is a minimum prerequisite for the training level of the Assistant Ski Guide Program. Experience shows those candidates who enter with the CAA Level 2 have an easier time with the decision making and hazard evaluation tasks.

Expectation - on the courses, you must be capable of guiding clients on skis showing efficient and confident movement while linking appropriate turns in variable backcountry snow. You must show that you are capable of guiding clients in alpine ski mountaineering terrain including glaciers, snow and ice, and simple short-roping showing confident and efficient movement. "

It's not a program were you can know nothing, enroll, attend classes, and then become a guide.

[JR]

Why bother. Anyone I know with that kind of experience certainly does not need to attend college to get their guiding papers.

[cj001f]

Originally posted by JR
Why bother. Anyone I know with that kind of experience certainly does not need to attend college to get their guiding papers.

No - all you need in N. America is to call yourself a guide and you're a guide.

[Z-BO]

it should be pretty easy if you're patient and willing to get into a cat skiing outfit in the u.s. personally i'm taking my time and will be taking my international guiding test in the next few years. most cat ski operations are pretty much ran by glorified ski patrollers. which isn't a bad thing, but i feel that all backcountry guides should be UIAGM certified. just get a hold of every cat ski operation and see if they will let you work for them, you'll need some avalanche class time and an advanced first aid course under your belt. plus you'll get the bonus of learning how to drive cats, work on cats, wipe bottoms, and sometimes ski pow pow. good luck.

[Trackhead]

As far as starting your own cat business.......mucho bucks, investors, mechanics, permits, liability insurance, the list goes on.

I looked into for quite a while. Owned two snowcats (old ones-Thiokol Imp and Bombardier Bombi), tried to get permits from two different forest service areas in Utah, blah, blah.

The biggest hurdle is obtaining the special use permit from the Forest Service. Which involves an EIS (enviro impact statement), and a ton of other government red tape. Basically, the feds would rather sell logging permits to the friggin timber industry than issue a special use permit for a snowcat operation. It's all about money my friend. And quite frankly, a cat operation isn't going to net the Feds much money compared to SouthWest Forest products bid to log the crap out of the area.

Second hurdle: Buying two cats for the operation. New cats are well over 100k, super maintenance intensive, and wicked expensive to maintain. You will also need a damn good mechanic and a big, heated shop to work on them. The old cats I had were simple machines, but still very expensive to overhaul and restore. And often times hard to find parts for. When you do find parts for them, they are very pricey because all the parts are now obsolete. You need atleast two cats in case one breaks down, which it will. Or one gets stuck, which they do.

Third hurdle: Getting liability insurance you can afford.

Fourth hurdle: Marketing your business. Not like cat skiing is selling tickets to the superbowl. How many people want to pay $200+ a day for skiing? Competing with all the killer cat ski companies in Canada, you better have something good to offer.

Fifth hurdle: Goes with the EIS statement and the Feds. Guaranteed local greenies are going to protest your diesel cat tracking out all 'their' terrain. All these special use permits are basically presented to check local interest, etc. See 'Save Our Canyons' in the Wasatch. Pretty aggro bunch of folks.

If you can get past all that, then your all over it. I beat my head against the wall for three years trying to get something going, never getting past the initial forest service red tape.

Otherwise, go work for somebody, and let them deal with the headaches. And when you do get your business running, I will be the first to apply for a job.

When you are looking at cats for a 'reasonable' price. Check out the LMC 1500. One of the best cats with the lightest footprint of about .50 psi. Relatively simple to work on. You can get ten passenger cabs for these cats. Plenty of power. Parts readily available. This one is about 35k. Look for one with low hours, and the heavy OC-12 differential. Wide tracks, aluminum cleats.


http://www.snotrans.com/sales/Images/1b.jpg
http://www.sotc.com/images/cat.lmc1500.jpg

Or the classic LMC 1200C. Available with 10-12 passenger cabs. psi .65 (good flotation). Powerful enough to effectively use a blade. Mandatory for a cat operation. A company in Idaho is using a couple of these for their operation. This one is about 22k.
http://www.snotrans.com/sales/Images/2b.jpg

[DougW]

Go to biglines as there have been several threads on it a while back and included comments from people who actually gone through it. Here's one:


"Hello, this is not actually Mntlion but his girlfriend who goes by Girlguide on Powder. As you can imagine I had the exact same questions afew years ago and went out and answered them. I am presently working as a tail guide at MW. Your options in Canada are simple: ACMG or CSGA. The Canadian Ski Guide Association is the option I have chosen, however it can be very limiting as to operations which hire you, not many Heli operators use tailguides (the first stage of the CSGA way) and no ski touring operators use 'em, many cat ski operators use CSGA Level 1s but many do still hire well experienced and committed to the ACMG route people. (Island Lake among them). The last reply is VERY correct, experience is your best friend, go out and ski tour and then ski tour some more. Ski tour in many different snowpacks, check out the Wapta traverse for some Icefield and Rockies snow and then hit the Kootneys. Hit Whistler and the north Cariboo. Ski tour with a variety of people, not the same dude all the time.

Check out the web sites www.canskiguide.ab.ca and www.acmg.ca and that will get you all the info you need for basic pre-requisites. As for commercial or college courses designed to teach you everything you need to know to be a ski guide, I think they are a waste of time and money. Out of the course I took many of the candidates had taken the College of the Rockies course and many of them had to repeat the CSGA course a year later and none are working now that I am aware of. (I am only aware of two of 16 of my course that have close to full time guiding work) Be careful how you spend your money.

All the operators are looking for good customer service experience and many hold ski instruction experience to be an important part of that. (take it from me if you cant teach people how to ski you don't want to be a ski guide, most of what we do is help people with technique so they can actually enjoy themselves.) Which brings me to caution you that ski guiding is not all about skiing Alaska flute lines and jumping off cliffs. Lots of ski guiding is taking care of people who feel frightened, intimidated, cold, and out of their element. If you don't like people, don't become a ski guide.

I love it, it is every thing I expected, I combined a ski touring and ski instruction background and had good results with getting work and keeping the job. The work is hard, the days are long and the job is the best in the world.

good luck, have fun and learn lots of jokes!!!
GG"

[DougW]

There is also an article in the Winter Ski Canada Mag http://travel.canoe.ca/SkiCanadaSpri...er04/home.html

I takes a long time , pretty expensive courses and exams. Recently was on a cat trip and we were talking to the tail gunner and extra guide we had in the back. The tail gunner was thinking of going for it but the draw back was the cost of the exams and the amount of touring you have to have under your belt.

The route another guide I talked to, killing time on the drive from Canmore to Rodgers, was Pro Patrol. He did it at a small hill that has lots of avie control. High turnover do to crapy pay so you get experience fast. He wasn't full certifed ACMG but was well on his way. Did avie course instruction until he went back to RK Heli.

[schuss]

if you're young a good idea with the first aid would be to volunteer with the local rescue or EMT squad. They'd probably love another person, and you'll get very valuable and real-life experience very quickly. As well as the certs.

[glademaster]

What about working for an operation like Blue Sky West in Steamboat. I love that town and area, so its a draw for me. All of their guides are only PSIA instructors and have like level 1 avy cert, I could do that fairly easily. Does anyone have any experience with them as an outfit. I would rather work at an average operation terrain wise like them and live in somewhere as great as the 'Boat, with all the four season rec, than some depressed logging/mining town somewhere. I dunno. Do any of you know guides/former guides at BSW or Steamboat Powdercats, or have any of you skiied with them? What is the terrain, snow, and other guides like? Thanks for all the feedback, I really appreciate it.

-Ben