Ebay Scam? Advice Needed

[gforce]

There is a high end road bike on Ebay I am considering bidding on. There are some red flags however:

1) 3 day listing that ends at 5:00 am
2) Seller hasn't listed frame size - has only listed some crude measurements taken with a tape measure that doesn't show whether it is C -C or C - Top.
3) Will not permit local pick up - shipping UPS only.
4) Seller has been Ebay member for about 2 weeks.
Has sold 4 minor items with 100% feedback.
5) Claims he will offer a refund if item is returned in 3 days - WHAT does that exactly mean, terms, ect. Is there a paypal policy on this.
This is a very sweet bike but don't want to stick my neck out...what do you think? Any way to protect myself, I have offered up the idea of escrow.com but he hasn't responded to it.

[utsnowgirl]

Item number?

[Natedogg]

I have offered up the idea of escrow.com but he hasn't responded to it.

I would NOT bid until they respond. Even then, you will need to assess the situation further. Sounds too shady to risk sending lots of money (Im assuming its a few hundred bucks? If its a few thousand then its a no brainer unless you have a shitload of 'disposable' income [no pun intended]).

I dont know legally what leverage you have if he is a deadbeat. I always assume none, but I am super cautious.

Bottom line: if its too good to be true, likely it is.

Good luck.



<edit> BTW--any photos of the actual bike? No way if not...

[gforce]

There are photos and the bike looks good. But hard to see if anything is really wrong. I really didn't want to give the item in case this is legit but what the hell. The ebay # is 120029897742. Kind of my dream bike...but I don't want my dream to turn into a nightmare!

[Hutch]

for anything this valuable I'd definitely recommend Western Union.

[gforce]

Thanks Captain Satire.

[DerJaeger]

Don't even THINK about touching that thing. A legit buyer would be all over local pick-up.

It's a scam for sure.

[Natedogg]

I dunno man, that looks sketchy. Who buys a bike for an investment?!?!

Oh and by the way, if a maggot snipes your bike you have a legal obligation to whoop his/her ass. Thems the rules.

[AKWL]

Wow, what a nice bike. I hope it's true and you win.

However, I actually clicked on one of the scam alerts on the left hand side of the auction window, and this guide popped up. I didn't write it, and maybe it's all old, but I learnt a few things...

I will update this guide from time to time, so check back occasionally. I will try to keep it brief. And do vote for it if you find it helpful. I like to know somebody is paying attention to my efforts to clean the 'Bay. Thanks.

A fool and his money are soon parted. Don't be foolish. Ebay is (unfortunately) frequented by hoodlums, and there are some things you MUST know or do to protect yourself. It CAN happen to YOU. It has happened to me and it has happened to people smarter than you and me.

1. Do not follow e-mail addresses that are included in the text section of postings. If the seller claims that is the only way to contact them, abandon ship and go no further. Send all the questions you have ONLY via the Ebay mail link. When you do send a message, ask about payment methods and shipping and such, not just about the item itself. If you don't like the options the seller gives for payment method, tell him what you would be willing to do. If he is real, he may try to accomodate you because he has the item and he wants to sell it.

2. Short duration sales are very suspicious. There may be a few good reasons to sell quick and cheap, but there are a million bad ones. Scammers want to quickly hook their marks and then disappear into the ether. They do not want their postings to languish for for all to see.

3. Be wary of "private" auctions which do not disclose the names of the bidders. Scammers do not want buyers to warn each other, so they hide our identities as well as theirs.

4. American laws do not apply anywhere but in America. The bad guys know that. So use great care, if you must proceed at all. Especially do not deal with anyone who is "temporarily" out of the country.

5. If the sale is supposedly in the United States, make sure the bid amount is in American dollars. Non-American currency values are printed in italics on Ebay, so they are easy to spot. It doesn't make much sense for a guy in Texas to convert your bid to Euros, does it?

6. What is the return policy, and does it even matter? Don't be impressed by money-back guarentees. If it is a scam, they AREN'T going to give your money back.

7. Look at the seller's feedback. Carefully! Don't just look at an impressively large number and call it good. There is a ton of useful information here if you take the time to really investegate. If it is a stolen account, they are somebody else's points anyway. But you can learn a lot:

A. Has he bought or sold anything recently, and what was it? Accounts that have no recent activity are much more likely to be stolen accounts.

B. Is this auction consistent with items bought and sold in the past? If a buyer of $5 trinkets is suddenly selling a $4000 drum set, take note. It may be valid, but it is suspicious.

C. Is the item location the same for this sale as for his last sales? Does the location actually exist, or is it some fictional locale?

D. Are his accepted payment methods the same as his last sales? If he accepted PayPal before, why is he insisting on a wire transfer or cashier's check now?

E. The seller's positive feedback points for purchased items are not very useful to you as a buyer, so don't over-value them.

8. What else is the seller posting for sale at the time? Follow the link for Seller's Other Items. If they have a large number of unrelated big-ticket items currently for sale (musical instruments, computers, cameras, bicycles...) that is very suspicious.

9. Look at the photos. Are they just stock pictures from the company web site or are they apparently authentic photos of the item? Scammers can get pictures of anything from the web, including from other Ebay auctions. If you have seen the exact same photo in other auctions, be suspicious. Also, look at the backgrounds in the photos. Does it look like they just took their digital camera into a store and started clicking away?

10. Talk to the seller! How? Place as low a bid as possible on the item. Bidding gives you the right to view the seller's contact information. Go to this link, and paste in the seller's name and the item number. Ebay will e-mail his contact information to you.

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQtZvbQQsofindtypeZ9

If the phone number does not work, that is a major red flag. Use a phone number web-site or directory assistance to verify that the person's name, location and phone number make sense. Don't be afraid to ask very specific questions about the product and sale.

11. Is the item in the correct category? Another device scammers with use to hide their skulduggery is to post items in obscure places. Instead of searching the entire Ebay universe for your item, specify your category.

12. Payment method is a very big deal. C.O.D. is great if they will go with it. Escrow.com is good (though a little pricy), and the only escrow Ebay recommends. Many scammers set up bogus sites that sound and look like Escrow.com, but do not be fooled. DO NOT use any other escrow site. PayPal is good too, up to a point. BUT if the posting does not include this specific phrase on the right hand side under BUY SAFELY:

"Free PayPal Buyer Protection"

then you are NOT eligible for PayPal's maximum $1000 protection. In that case, the best you can hope for is the $200 coverage extended by Ebay.

The whole official PayPal safety spiel is here:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/tp/paypal...Name:BPM:PPPBP

If you use PayPal, use your credit card rather than your own bank account. Many credit card issuers will refund money stolen from you. It is not fail-safe, but it is another layer of protection. Never use Western Union for these transactions. Western Union's own web site will tell you that. Wire transfers and any kind of check is a one-way ticket to fraud.

13. Most second-chance offers are scam attempts. Real second-chance offers are ONLY tendered via Ebay's My Messages, not an outside E-mail account. They will and not ask you to directly contact the seller. If there is a hot-link on the page, take a look at the URL it points to when you roll your cursor over it. (The URL is usually displayed at the bottom of your web browser) There are fake Ebay and PayPal sites that attempt to steal your login information. If the URL does not start with "https:" it is not a secure site. Do NOT log in there!

14. Finally, do not wait until the last hour of the sale to get interested in it. If it is something you want, there is some homework for you to do. Give yourself the time to evaluate things and give the seller time to respond to your questions. Be respectful in your communications and not accusitory. Do not burn bridges, but do not allow yourself to be burned.

You are doing business with total strangers here, and don't forget it. Most people are decent and honest, but some aren't, and they can really mess up your day.

Enjoy the fruits of capitalism, but don't be a fool.

Good luck, my friends. Hope to see you around the 'Bay!

Here is the link to the guide:
http://reviews.ebay.com/Ebay-Scams-1...-1:COMPLETED:1

[gforce]

I read that today too. I would probably have more confidence if the auction had paypal protection but it doesn't. This auction doesn't seem right and he never responded to my escrow.com suggestion even to assure me it was legit...a little too sketchy for me.

[shmoesmith]

Hey gforce.

I will give you my opinion, and please take it as only that. I worked in eBay's fraud department from july06 to Dec 06. My job was to identify fraudulent listings and remove them and take action with police if neccesary. By all appearances, this looks like a legitimate listing. It doesnt have any of the tell-tale signs that we were trained to look for in a bad listing. That said, that is only my opinion based upon viewing the listing. At eBay, they have tools that can trace certain info about you that you would think would only be restricted to people like the FBI..but its not. Without those tools to check the listing and exact login info when it was listed, it is hard to tell the legitimacy of the listing. I will say this though- High end bikes were a MAJOR fraud item, so be careful when looking at ANY bike listing on there.

Looking at the listing, it is 1 of two things.
1.) A legitimate listing (which I think it probably is, without using any other tools)
2.) An ATO(account take over), which is a legitimate account that has been hacked by phishing, and the hacker uses the legitimate account to put up a false listing.

The seller has good feedback from established ebay members, and the feedback corresponds to shipping times(IE its not immediate, which would indicate that the accounts giving feedback were fake accounts, or hacked accounts, being used for the sole purpose of providing false feedback). Additionally, there are unique photos on the account (most fraudsters use generic photos). Also the text style and way of speaking is consistant with previous listings. Additionaly, the english is good, with only a few typo's that are common. Most fraudulent listings the english is a direct copy of copyrighted material, or is blatently translated through a service like babblefish. Also the item location is consistent with previous locations. Their stuff isnt in all caps(another fraud indicator) and it doesnt have any crazy buy it now prices on it. Aditional proof of a good listing is that the pictures(although old) are original. They are not from any past Colnago C-50 listings on ebay (fraudsters will use other legitimate listing's pictures since they dont really have the bike themselves...a quick search of current listings and under 'advanced search' of completed listings for the same item will yield any pictures previously used in other listings. These bike pictures were not used in other listings)

The only two things that are suspicious is that
1.) worldwide shipping with no local pickup (no local pickup is not a solid indicator, as experience has shown me that many ebayers do not want people to know where they live for privacy reasons..The worldwide shipping is actually more suspicious than the no local pickup)
2.) Pictures are old (dated in August)however, see previous statement about pictures likely legitimacy.

The steps I would take would be to contact ebay security in a live ATO chat and bring up the listing to their attention as a possible ATO. They can check the systems that I was mentioning earlier(that I no longer have access to) and shoudl be able to figure out if it is an ATO or not. If not, it is probably a legit listing, and the person is just an inexperienced e-bayer(which is my suspicion)

Take it for what its worth, and if you do purchase it, do it with a credit card or something that you have some protection with. DO NOT do a wire transfer.

-Shmoe.

[shmoesmith]

oh, and as far as the escrow thing, most ebay members dont know what it is, or wont use it. I wouldnt be too upset about that.

[phUnk]

If you can't get yourself or a friend to see it in person, you should pass.

[doublediamond223]

I would be extremely cautious. I was badly burned by paypal a few months ago for an Nvidia video card. The guy had a couple of buyer's feedback, and I was under the false impression that paypal protected me, since I hold a business premier account, or w/e the hell they call it. After sending my payment, the guy fell off the face of the earth. I got an email from another buyer who also got burned by the guy, and we both filed paypal claims as soon as possible. A month later, once paypal finally found in favor, they tell me that I'm only getting $175 out of the $450 I spent back. I said fuck them, and called my bank to do a chargeback, only to have paypal hit me with a negative balance after doing the chargeback. I called customer service to say BS, and she called me a liar and a fraud.

I ate $250. I will never trust paypal again.

Use American Express if you are going to buy the bike, they will chargeback anything with almost no questions asked. Someone I know chargebacked a non-refundable rafting trip after the dates fell through and got away with it through amex.

Bar that, I would say stay away, tempting as it is.

[nimbus]

I would not bid unless the seller can show the bike is not stolen. One of the ex-employees at a local tri shop sold >$20k of parts stolen from the shop on Ebay.

If the seller is unresponsive now, do you think they will be more responsive after they have your $$$$?

[Pedro]

Don't even THINK about touching that thing. A legit buyer would be all over local pick-up.

It's a scam for sure.

I would rather ship, I don't want to deal with the hassel of someone coming to my house.

[gforce]

Thanks Shmoe and everyone else. I passed on bidding - didn't feel right - seller just didn't know enough about the bike. When I checked the auction this morning after it was over I was surprised to see 13 bids. It sold for quite alot given the lame description of the bike.

[DerJaeger]

I would rather ship, I don't want to deal with the hassel of someone coming to my house.

But think about all the hassle of having to ship a bike. I think most people would prefer to just have someone pick the bike up and be done with it.

I could be wrong - all I know is that the two times I have contacted people on ebay to enquire about local pickup, they quite happy receptive to the idea.

[Pedro]

But think about all the hassle of having to ship a bike. I think most people would prefer to just have someone pick the bike up and be done with it.

I could be wrong - all I know is that the two times I have contacted people on ebay to enquire about local pickup, they quite happy receptive to the idea.

Yeah....There are ups and downs on both ends, I have sold a few of my bikes and old crap on Ebay, and Usually i have it Packaged Prior to auction end so I can get it out the bidder as soon as they pay and keep them happy so i get a good feedback. I have bought a few items from bike stores that will not accept local pickup.

[Natedogg]

Jesus shmoe, I dont want to attack you here, but f-in A, I should get a job at eBay! Is this logic the reason why you only worked there for six months??? Sorry, that was mean, but lets use our brains here:

Additionaly, the english is good, with only a few typo's that are common.

English is good? Where the hell did you learn English? The writing in this listing is TERRIBLE. This person didnt use one period, spelling errors up the wazoo, etc. My guess is that English is not this user's primary language.

Aditional proof of a good listing is that the pictures(although old) are original. They are not from any past Colnago C-50 listings on ebay

These bike pictures were not used in other listings

Good recovery. Key words are "not used in other listings ON EBAY." And you should add "in the last 90 days" or whatever the expiration period is for auctions that you can view under 'completed listings.'

(no local pickup is not a solid indicator, as experience has shown me that many ebayers do not want people to know where they live for privacy reasons..

Number one, if you pay this person through Paypal (you have their full name) and have an idea of the general area in which they live, there is a good chance that their home address is not private. Google works magic. Number two, where they live is basically irrelevant in most cases. Meet at a mall. Use a company vehicle to meet the person. Ride there on the bike and have a friend pick you up. If youre a paranoid nut, there are always alternatives.

Sorry for the rant, but I respectfully (sorry for the harshness) disagree with your assessment. I think gforce made a solid decision--whether the auction was real or not, he should feel good about passing it up.

BTW, my guess (by looking at the other auctions and feedback auctions) is that the bike is stolen. Along with the phones, the gold/garnet bracelet, the diamond earring, etc.

[SKISC]

I think I may pass. Sounds like the guy does not know shit about bikes. A friend e mailed him and said the group looked like Campy. He should have known that. Also the measuring with the tape measure, wtf.

Anyone with a bike like that sitting around should know these things. Something definitely seems fishy about this.

[Cornholio]

...Good thing his buddy emailed him to let him know about the gruppo.

No wheels? None at all? Please.

I'll bet dollars to donuts-- or bacon to donuts if you want-- this bike was as hot as a two-dollar whore.

[shmoesmith]

Jesus shmoe, I dont want to attack you here, but f-in A, I should get a job at eBay! Is this logic the reason why you only worked there for six months??? Sorry, that was mean, but lets use our brains here:

no, I only worked there for six months because it was a shitty place to work.

English is good? Where the hell did you learn English? The writing in this listing is TERRIBLE. This person didnt use one period, spelling errors up the wazoo, etc. My guess is that English is not this user's primary language.

OK, I revise my statement, their use of punctuation etc sucks....When I say their english is good, I'm saying it looks legit. When you view hundreds of listings a day for fraud, you get to know how the american public writes (which is poorly, and exactly how this listing was written)and how out of country fraudsters write. There is a difference.

Number one, if you pay this person through Paypal (you have their full name) and have an idea of the general area in which they live, there is a good chance that their home address is not private. Google works magic. Number two, where they live is basically irrelevant in most cases. Meet at a mall. Use a company vehicle to meet the person. Ride there on the bike and have a friend pick you up. If youre a paranoid nut, there are always alternatives.

alot of people on ebay are paranoid nuts.

Sorry for the rant, but I respectfully (sorry for the harshness) disagree with your assessment. I think gforce made a solid decision--whether the auction was real or not, he should feel good about passing it up.

BTW, my guess (by looking at the other auctions and feedback auctions) is that the bike is stolen. Along with the phones, the gold/garnet bracelet, the diamond earring, etc.

I still think its a legitimate listing, in as much as the person listing it actually has the property. THAT SAID, there is a good chance of it being stolen property(as you mentioned) based upon the no local pickup, and the short duration listing. Guess we will have to see in a few days if anyone gets it or not. I would have contacted ebay security about it. They would have called the account owner and verified its legitimacy etc. Most fraudsters dont use real phone numbers for their accounts and if ebay didnt get ahold of them, they would have just taken it down.

[Natedogg]

no, I only worked there for six months because it was a shitty place to work.

Hehehheh, right on.

alot of people on ebay are paranoid nuts.

Ha! Touche!

[phUnk]

If it's a big ticket item, and you refuse to either have someone to your house to check it out, or meet them with it at the corner coffee shop, you can go ahead and get fucked.