1st Chiro visit and I'm leary

[summit]

MBSC, as a scientist, have you ever put some thought into the lack of science behind chiro and the whacky fields that it associates itself with:

Applied Kinesiology, the idea that the body can subconciously sense unhealthy things around it and the quack can measure these senses by minute changes in muscle strength. Pure psuedoscience! http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery.../Tests/ak.html yet almost half of the Chiropractors in the US claim to use it in their practice.

Colon Hydrotherapy (a completely unecessary treatment responsible for many deaths, illnesses, and spreading diseases).

Homeopathy - a field based almost entirely on the the placebo effect...

Consider how much of the practice is based upon IMAGINED CAUSE AND EFFECT when healing is actually natural and independent of "treatment."

If you want to learn about some of the bigger problems with Chiro, look here:
http://www.chirobase.org/

200-300 years ago, many of the same healing fields existed side by side. Few were based on science. "Doctors" back then were not much of a safe bet. In fact, back in those days going to a chiropractor or homeopath was probably far less likely to cause a patient harm. However, the medical field embraced rationalism and the scientific method and many of these field are, for a large part, anachronistic holdovers.

Here is a well documented article on how some neck manipulations by chiropractors have caused strokes: http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...irostroke.html

I'm not saying chiro is worthless, there seem to be a *FEW* instances where it has scientificly proven itself effective (almost exclusively with certain lower back pains, so maybe it is for you). The problem is if you have such a problem, how do you find a chiro who is not a whacko.

Unlinke MDs who, for the most part, practice what their field has proven effective, Chiros pick and choose what parts of their Chiropractic education they believe in, and what other whacky fields they want to include. A "straight" DC fversus a "mixer," the "straight" Chiropractor believes that ALL ailments are caused by problems with bone alignment. A "mixed" DC acknowledges things like... germs... may cause disease too.

Look at one of the most basic tenets of Chiropractic: the subluxion. DCs cannot agree on just what a subluxion is. It was supposedly a bone misalignment that causes negative effects on the body as a whole. There is disagreement on whether these bone misalignments appear on X-rays (about 2/3 of DCs don't think you can see them with an X-ray) or whether they just intuit their presence. Here is a good, well supported article on that contraversy http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery.../chirosub.html

I'm not a doctor, but I have enough science education to see the lack of science. For my money, I'd see a sports medacine specialist, a DO (Doctor of Osteopathy), a physical therapist, or even a massage therapist, any day before I'd see an DC (Doctor of Chiropractic).

[girlski0912]

MBSC, as a scientist, have you ever put some thought into the lack of science behind chiro and the whacky fields that it associates itself with:

Applied Kinesiology, the idea that the body can subconciously sense unhealthy things around it and the quack can measure these senses by minute changes in muscle strength. Pure psuedoscience! http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery.../Tests/ak.html yet almost half of the Chiropractors in the US claim to use it in their practice.

Colon Hydrotherapy (a completely unecessary treatment responsible for many deaths, illnesses, and spreading diseases).

Homeopathy - a field based almost entirely on the the placebo effect...

Consider how much of the practice is based upon IMAGINED CAUSE AND EFFECT when healing is actually natural and independent of "treatment."

If you want to learn about some of the bigger problems with Chiro, look here:
http://www.chirobase.org/

200-300 years ago, many of the same healing fields existed side by side. Few were based on science. "Doctors" back then were not much of a safe bet. In fact, back in those days going to a chiropractor or homeopath was probably far less likely to cause a patient harm. However, the medical field embraced rationalism and the scientific method and many of these field are, for a large part, anachronistic holdovers.

Here is a well documented article on how some neck manipulations by chiropractors have caused strokes: http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...irostroke.html

I'm not saying chiro is worthless, there seem to be a *FEW* instances where it has scientificly proven itself effective (almost exclusively with certain lower back pains, so maybe it is for you). The problem is if you have such a problem, how do you find a chiro who is not a whacko.

Unlinke MDs who, for the most part, practice what their field has proven effective, Chiros pick and choose what parts of their Chiropractic education they believe in, and what other whacky fields they want to include. A "straight" DC fversus a "mixer," the "straight" Chiropractor believes that ALL ailments are caused by problems with bone alignment. A "mixed" DC acknowledges things like... germs... may cause disease too.

Look at one of the most basic tenets of Chiropractic: the subluxion. DCs cannot agree on just what a subluxion is. It was supposedly a bone misalignment that causes negative effects on the body as a whole. There is disagreement on whether these bone misalignments appear on X-rays (about 2/3 of DCs don't think you can see them with an X-ray) or whether they just intuit their presence. Here is a good, well supported article on that contraversy http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery.../chirosub.html

I'm not a doctor, but I have enough science education to see the lack of science. For my money, I'd see a sports medacine specialist, a DO (Doctor of Osteopathy), a physical therapist, or even a massage therapist, any day before I'd see an DC (Doctor of Chiropractic).

Hence why I was so wigged. They are doing some serious shit to a very sensitive and delicate part of your body. Not mention that it is probably the easiest medical profession to make a ton of money in with very little justification. People with back pain, like myself, will do anything for quick relief. And a chiro can do that and sucker you into coming back for more. But like Arty said, there isn't a permenant solution in JUST chiro work. Overtrained muscles are going to pull the spine right back to where it was if you don't fix that, however the general public suffering from back pain isn't willing to commit to long term treatment that would include PT and some hard work and dedication.

Arty- I knew that it wouldn't provide instant relief and that one shot may not fix everything, but this guy's solution may not involve PT and muscle re-training because that isn't going to put new shoes on HIS feet. I had hoped for more relief out of this one visit than what I got. That said, I am going back in this afternoon for one more shot to get my ribs back into place and possibly a referral into a PT (though that may be easier said than done). i am also about to drop my current gym membership and join up somewhere else with a better yoga/pilates offering. That is something that I have wanted to do for a long time.

Again- thank you all for your input. Pretty interesting to hear everyone's experience.

Lemon Boy- I know...I shouldn't wear heels and I dont' wear the high ones. I usually wear them once or twice a week, and I don't run in them on a regular basis!

[CS]

blah blah
spew spew

Dude, is there any subject you don't think/pretend you know everything about?

[lemon boy]

well good luck GS on getting things fixed out a bit...do you feel any better today?

One thing that should be obvious to you (or will be once I say it) is that there are a myriad of reasons why people have back trouble and everyone w/it will struggle and hobble along until they find the root cause (IF they ever do) and take corrective action. IMVHO it just takes a lot of experimentation to get it right. Ultimately, I think that what most people need to do is coordinate their efforts with a PT, MD & DC* get them all to agree on a course of action with the person and then go forward. There often is a magic bullet but you're unlikely to accidentally discover it. If you'll review everyone's post it is from the POV of what worked for them.

I'm curious how you've come to the conclusion about what you think it is causing your pain though?

Seriously though there is only one acceptable time to be wearing high heels and that's when you're playing dress up dominatrix.



*edit- you might look for a place that has them all, likely by looking for words like "integrated healing" my PT, MD/NP and DC all share an office/practice.

[girlski0912]

well good luck GS on getting things fixed out a bit...do you feel any better today?



I'm curious how you've come to the conclusion about what you think it is causing your pain though?

*edit- you might look for a place that has them all, likely by looking for words like "integrated healing" my PT, MD/NP and DC all share an office/practice.

I don't feel any better today. My neck is still crackly and sore, my rib is still out, and my low back feels better not from any of the manipulation (and any adjustments were more to my upper back, rib cage, and neck) but primarily because I haven't worked out since Monday. I am more aware of how much my back "shifts" when i stand up or sit down. That isn't good, but that also suggests to me that my muscles supporting my lower back are causing the pull with these movements.

I haven't really come to any conclusions, more just basing it off of what I know from years of being an athlete and growing up in an active and educated household (parents owned a gym, mom was an aerobics instructor stepdad was the personal trainer, he worked for years in a sports medicine clinic in portland helping rehab athletes). Combine that with having been injured quite a bit in the past, I just know where my physical weaknesses are and are pretty aware of the side effects.

And given my stepdad's connections to the sports medicine world in PDX, my next step is going to be getting linked up with a good rehab center just as you mentioned above- some place that provides a little bit of everything with an active lifestyle as the goal.

[lemon boy]

Well good luck finding it whatever, sorry you don't feel better today.

Back problems fucking suck

[whine]this has been a really bad summer for my back b/c of an injury which is new to me instead of my chronic lazy issues on my back[/whine]

[L7]

Summit is quite helpful at trying to fill your head with all the fear mongering that you're already too focused on. Of course the same could easily be done by focusing on poor medical doctor outcomes and claiming that proves how useless they are. I wonder if there have been as many strokes from neck manipulation as there have been issues from poor surgical outcomes? Either caused by the surgery itself or the anesthetic used or for that matter prescription drugs. You can dwell on the incidence of error or poor outcomes that exist in all fields and remain afraid of them all and just carry on with the pain until it cripples you.

I agree with LB that quite likely the solution will involve a combination of approaches but most definitely will involve a commitment by you. You seem a lot like me and most people, full of commitment when it is acute but likely to let all of it slide when things feel good. Then down the road it turns into a shit show again and you've likely ignored the signs leading to it and are again in so much pain the commitment is all there again.

Like others here (and your chiro) said it's not going to happen in one session. Minor stuff might but not a full blown mess in your back. The one thing that does surprise me is that the guy tried to adjust you at all. When I'd go in that messed up my guy would refuse to adjust me because it was too acute. He'd do the heat packs, some massage (he was fully certified), sometimes some accupunture (also certified) and some ART but mostly he'd send me home with specific instructions of what I should do and to come back in a couple of days after it had settled a bit.

One thing that did help for me quite quickly when I was really bad was magnesium. Apparently it blocks the neural paths that cause the muscles to keep spasming. The first time I took it I had very noticeable relief in about half an hour. Way more relief than ibuprofen or muscle relaxants had ever offered.

Again that's only one part of the cycle causing the problem but finding the trick to stop that cycle is a big step to relief. Finding the root cause of the problem is the next big step. Actually keeping up on what you have to do to treat that root problem is the real and long lasting solution.

[Arty50]

Applied Kinesiology, the idea that the body can subconciously sense unhealthy things around it and the quack can measure these senses by minute changes in muscle strength.

BTW. I definitely didn't mean this. More like this:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kinesthesiology

Basically, the good PT I saw recognized that my problem was muscular as opposed to skeletal. Back issues are rarely skeletal, and if they are you'd better be seeing a real doctor.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Summit is quite helpful at trying to fill your head with all the fear mongering that you're already too focused on. Of course the same could easily be done by focusing on poor medical doctor outcomes and claiming that proves how useless they are.

But if there are medically useless procedures they are subjected to actual studies to avoid using them--something chiropractors don't do because they know (or are ignorant) that their 'procedures' are generally useless and potentially harmful. It should go without saying that only medical procedures that have proven benefits should be practiced, but chiropractors don't really believe in science (otherwise they wouldn't believe in much of what their field advocates).
There's a big difference between real medicine and what chiropractors do, and good reason for great skepticism of chiropractors and other pretend medicine. See a physiatrist for real back problems, they're the people qualified to figure out what's wrong and how to treat it.

[summit]

BTW. I definitely didn't mean this. More like this:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kinesthesiology

Kinesthesiology is almost completely unrelated to the pseudoscience of Applied Kinesthesiology. Kinesthesiologists can't stand the AK quacks.

But if there are medically useless procedures they are subjected to actual studies to avoid using them--something chiropractors don't do because they know (or are ignorant) that their 'procedures' are generally useless and potentially harmful. It should go without saying that only medical procedures that have proven benefits should be practiced, but chiropractors don't really believe in science (otherwise they wouldn't believe in much of what their field advocates).
There's a big difference between real medicine and what chiropractors do, and good reason for great skepticism of chiropractors and other pretend medicine. See a physiatrist for real back problems, they're the people qualified to figure out what's wrong and how to treat it.

People would do well to read Dex's post twice. He put it far better than I could have.

[Vinman]

Back issues are rarely skeletal, and if they are you'd better be seeing a real doctor.

Arty speaks the truth. Most of the peeps I have worked with typically have back pain that is muscular in nature. Sadly these peeps tend to have chronic conditions and they tend to not heal quickly. They may have postural problems, perform repetitive motions, bad lifting mechanics etc... But it can be helped with careful evaluation and targeted rehab. Even the early stages of discogenic back pain can often be reversed with stretching, strenghtening, postural re-education and modification of mechanics (lifting/repetitive motion) and occasionally some traction.

Chiropractic has its place just like every other discipline. And just like every other discipline there are good and bad practicioners. To dismiss all chiro as bad is just ignorant. There are times that it can be useful. I personally don't see it as the sure all that some practitioners claim but again that is just my opinion.

The best thing is do your research, talk to people to hear their experiences and then make an informed decision.

[Buzzworthy]

Two things I learned from this thread:

1. Girlski needs a real chiro. Her issues can be fixed to get to the preventative maintenance in just 3-4 sessions, and to get the rib back in place (which will most likely pop out again the next time you go hard and big). I learned to pop a problem rib back in with my wife's help. Disclaimer: I am not a professional and do not try this at home on my advice.

Find another that specializes more in sports injuries, as I did. PT is not a bad alternative, but with your symptoms so much like mine, I wish you could see my Chiro.

2. Summit is off his rocker. Break your neck in an adjustment???? Are you on crack? Glad you DO know everything.


If you want to give advice, speak from experience.

Some people will never think a chiro is good for you. I personally don't care, to each his own really.

One thing my chiro does too is have you lay on a warm water table massager for 15 minutes to lossen you up to get "cracked".

Laying you over his legs??? Never ever seen that in 12 years of chiro visits when needed. Plus 3-4 a week, never got that either. That is just the wallet talking and I will agree that I went thru many of these "quackers" before I found my guy.

I am also replacing my bed now, again. One year into a new "firmer" bed that has like 7" of "memory foam" is killing my back. They are taking it back, full refund and I am getting, get this, a handmade bed. Going back to old school, better mattress that you can flip, box spring that is not just a bunch of holes that all the foam dips into (hand woven material, not large metal open circles for "support") for about $750. More info as I get it from pops if you want.


PM me if you feel like talking and I can give you my cell. I think I may have more experience as a patient than most people here.

[Arty50]

I am also replacing my bed now, again. One year into a new "firmer" bed that has like 7" of "memory foam" is killing my back. They are taking it back, full refund and I am getting, get this, a handmade bed. Going back to old school, better mattress that you can flip, box spring that is not just a bunch of holes that all the foam dips into (hand woven material, not large metal open circles for "support") for about $750. More info as I get it from pops if you want.

Yup, the only way to go. When I was bed shopping a few years back, I ended up going this route too. I tried every bed known to mankind and the only one that I thought was slightly better was $7k...insane. The big problem nowadays is that modern box springs are nothing more than space filler. In other words, they don't provide any cushioning at all. Instead most manufacturers just make a relatively firm mattress and put a pillow top on it to make it feel cushy. If you lie on these long enough you realize they're fools gold. Feel great for the first 5 minutes, but suck after you settle in.

Then I tried a McRoskey and was immediately sold. Well, I shouldn't say immediately. I took a nice 20-30 minute nap on that sucker. They make them old school. The mattress provides the cushioning and a little support while the box spring supplies the majority of the support. As opposed to eveyone else who have the mattress doing it all. They slay beds that are twice their price. That said, they're not exactly cheap. But properly taken care of, they'll last twice as long as any other mattress (20 vs. 10 years). So it's worth it. Mine's 5 years old and feels awesome still.

[summit]

2. Summit is off his rocker. Break your neck in an adjustment???? Are you on crack? Glad you DO know everything.

Who said anything about breaking necks? Only you... although now that you mention it, vertebral fractures are a rare complication of chiropractic.

The deaths from neck adjustements resulted from a type of stroke stemming from vascular damage sustained during certain neck adjustments. The technical term is Vertebral Artery Dissection.

It's not about what I know... I only know what I have learned from the research and knowledge of others + my basic understanding of science and medicine.

It is typical to attack the person instead of the point if you have no decent counterpoint. This is your knee jerk defense vs what various coroners, neurologists, doctors, and even the courts have found. They have found, determined, and ruled that some Chiropractic treatments can cause death by VAD.

Google is your friend.

Here are a few hits: http://www.valleyskeptic.com/Chiropr...ans_death.html
http://www.pkblogs.com/quackfiles/20...djustment.html
http://www.chirowatch.com/Memorial/np040430evenson.html (scroll down for article)'
http://www.faact.com/healthadvisory.html

[Buzzworthy]

I speak from a lot of experience.


edit: So you are saying you never wrote this:

DO NOT LET THEM ADJUST YOUR NECK (you could die).

That is all.


Arty, yep, you hit the nail on the head.

[summit]

I speak from a lot of experience.

What... anecdotal experience as a patient? Anecdotal evidence does not scientific proof make.

Do you have ANY counterpoint to the information, evidence, arguments, and well cited articles I linked to? So far it seems your position is based on stamping your feet and shouting "No! YOU'RE wrong because I say so!"

Edit: Why, here is another article on strokes caused by neck manipulation!

Chiropractic's Dirty Secret: Neck Manipulation and Strokes
http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...irostroke.html
Stephen Barrett, M.D.

Here is another article:
What a rational Chiropractor can do for you
http://www.chirobase.org/07Strategy/goodchiro.html
Samuel Homola, D.C.

[lemon boy]

summit- I don't really have a dog in this fight but I would like to point out that your sources are not much better... quackwatch? Sounds pretty scientific and unbiased and stuff. I'm just sayin...

[summit]

summit- I don't really have a dog in this fight but I would like to point out that your sources are not much better... quackwatch? Sounds pretty scientific and unbiased and stuff. I'm just sayin...

I've linked to a half dozen articles... that isn't much better than... "No, you are wrong because I say so"???

The article on Quackwatch is written by a doctor...

OK I do acknowledge your point. It appears you want the real dirt which is a bit more boring to many. (I like reading this stuff though)

Here are six peer reviewed medical studies I found in ten minutes on google:

Vertebral Artery Dissection in Germany over three years (This study is pretty damning.)
http://www.chiro.org/Professional_Re...reuter_u06.pdf
U. Reuter M.D., M. Hamling M.D., I. Kavuk M.D., E. Schiekle M.D. of the Verebral Artery Dissection Discussion Panel (15 Neurologist study)

Spinal manipulative therapy is an independent risk factor for vertebral artery dissection
http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/60/9/1424
By, W. S. Smith, MD PhD, S. C. Johnston, MD PhD, E. J. Skalabrin, MD, M. Weaver, MS, P. Azari, G. W. Albers, MD and D. R. Gress, MD
American Academy of Neurology
This is a particularly good and damning study (n=151 final) that has been widely cited

Neurological complications of cervical spine manipulation.
http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/reprint/94/3/107.pdf
Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine

Spinal manipulation: Its safety is uncertain.
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/166/1/40
Canadian Medical Association Journal

Chiropractic Manipulation and Stroke: A Population-Based Case-Control Study
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/co...ract/32/5/1054
American Heart Association

Neurologic complications following chiropractic manipulation: a survey of California neurologists.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
From NIH pubmed... I could only get the abstract but its from the Journal of Neurology the study was done by Stanford Stroke Center, Department of Neurology and Neurological Sciences, Stanford University Medical Center

OK 6 proper peer reviewed medical studies from various nations show the link between c-spine chiropractic manipulation and VAD strokes...

Is there a stack of peer reviewed scientific studies that show otherwise?

[Dexter Rutecki]

I'd be really interested to know if there's any real scientific, medical (double blind peer-reviewed studies) evidence for chiropractic procedures having any positive effect. If it works, we should have more than anecdotal evidence from believers--because until there is proof from such studies, that's all chiro proponents are: believers. You can believe whatever you want, but recommending a pseudo-medical treatment to someone with a legitimate back problem is not good practice, IMO.

As I said before, with a back problem I would make a good ortho my point of reference--if that person recommended chiropractic treatment (would this ever happen?) then I would consider it (but whatever they recommend a second opinion could be a good thing, too).

edit: to note that Summit does seem to present some excellent sources that call 'manipulation' into question (I hadn't really looked through them before, and I guess he concluded by asking the same question I did).

[altagirl]

My chiro has helped, but he's definitely most helpful if I go in very soon after a crash that made my back feel tweaked. I have a more chronic problem with my spine between my shoulder blades - it's too straight. This, he hasn't been able to do that much with - it's been like that for too many years, I think. For a while I was getting shooting pains in my shoulder blades, and he got rid of that, which was a huge improvement, but I still get tightness there, and I know it's still straighter than it should be and have to keep up with stretching, etc. But if I go within a few days of something happening - one or two adjustments and it's gone.

With something like your situation, I wouldn't expect it to be miraculously cured in a single treatment. But you do want someone who will work with your PT and regular doctor, and who you just feel comfortable with.

And I can tell you with 100% certainty, that with many of my neck/back issues, the chiropractor has fixed it for me. I've gone in, not being able to turn my head more than a few degrees, had him crack my neck, and walked out with normal range of motion, and the pain and stiffness are gone. You can't tell me that's placebo.


And one other thing - I have heard of chiropractors causing injury - HOWEVER - this is why a good one does x-rays and takes a thorogh history before they touch your back. We recommended a friend to ours, who took a look at his xrays and sent him to an orthopod. They're not all just out for a buck, and a good one knows what they can do and more importantly what they can't.

[summit]

And one other thing - I have heard of chiropractors causing injury - HOWEVER - this is why a good one does x-rays

An X-ray is purely a diagnostic tool, one which chiropractors are questionably trained in the interpretation and safe use of. An X-ray being taken before manipulation will have no effect on complications from the manipulation. As far as the X-ray... Doctors know better than to X-ray every patient they see. I guess Chiropractors think that some extra radiation does the body good?

ctarmchair makes an excellent point that Chiros often do more than bone manipulation. However, the root of straight Chiropractic teaching is that all illnesses and maladies, including infections cancer etc, are caused by misaligned bones (subluxions). What we can see is that Chiropractors who do not completely ascribe to such hooey are then simply choosing their beliefs as they see fit, not by what is scientificly determined to be an effective treatment. That is why Chiropractors vary so amazingly widely in what they claim to be able to treat and how they claim to be able to treat.

We see all this advice on how to find a Chiropractor that does the "right" things...

Why is it that with chiropractors you see all sorts of advice like, "If the Chiropractor starts talking about healing you with magnets or sticking a tube up your butt, run out of that Chiro office!"

You don't see advice like that for other medical fields. You never get advice like, "If the doctor starts talking about leeches and blood lettting, find a different hospital."

[altagirl]

An X-ray is purely a diagnostic tool, one which chiropractors are questionably trained in the interpretation and safe use of. An X-ray being taken before manipulation will have no effect on complications from the manipulation. As far as the X-ray... Doctors know better than to X-ray every patient they see. I guess Chiropractors think that some extra radiation does the body good?

ctarmchair makes an excellent point that Chiros often do more than bone manipulation. However, the root of straight Chiropractic teaching is that all illnesses and maladies, including infections cancer etc, are caused by misaligned bones (subluxions). What we can see is that Chiropractors who do not completely ascribe to such hooey are then simply choosing their beliefs as they see fit, not by what is scientificly determined to be an effective treatment. That is why Chiropractors vary so amazingly widely in what they claim to be able to treat and how they claim to be able to treat.

We see all this advice on how to find a Chiropractor that does the "right" things...

Why is it that with chiropractors you see all sorts of advice like, "If the Chiropractor starts talking about healing you with magnets or sticking a tube up your butt, run out of that Chiro office!"

You don't see advice like that for other medical fields. You never get advice like, "If the doctor starts talking about leeches and blood lettting, find a different hospital."

Well, I'm getting off topic, but as it turns out, leeches do have a beneficial use in modern medicine.

And I disagree about the xrays. If you want to have a chiropractic adjustment, you should get an xray (or bring a recent one) so they can see what they're dealing with. Or just skip the whole thing altogether. Alternative medicine is a mixed bag. Some is crap, some is beneficial. I think the risks are extremely small with a good chiropractor. I don't know anyone who has been harmed by a chiropractor, but I know several who have had back surgeries that made their situation worse. Go figure. Personally, I believe in trying the lower risk, less invasive solutions first.

If it was such a load of crap, you'd think my insurance wouldn't be covering it.

[LAN]

Some people swear by Chiros, although it freaked me out when a neurosurgeon told me "Chiropractors keep me in business."

Can you see a Rehab/Sports Med doc? Sounds like it's worth an MRI to see what's going on.

And why narcotic pain meds? Have you tried Flexeril or some sort of muscle relaxant?

[LAN]

Well, I'm getting off topic, but as it turns out, leeches do have a beneficial use in modern medicine.

If it was such a load of crap, you'd think my insurance wouldn't be covering it.

Ewwww, one of the hospitals I worked at used leech therapy.

On a sidenote, I don't think you should ever trust your insurance company as a meter for providing prudent or appropriate care.

[uglymoney]

Funny how people are brutally attacking Summit when he is basically just posting facts that a person about to visit a Chiro for the first time might find useful. Quackwatch is a well known and well respected website that deals in many other areas of medicine. It is not a "Chiro Bashing" site, and in fact, it even has a couple of nice things to say about them.

If Chiro works for you and you are so completely confident in it, then great. Post your thoughts here and continue to give them your money for a service that relieves your pain - but yes, I join the few here that are publicly willing to admit that they are skeptical of Chiro's.

I remember being dumbfounded when a Palmer student told me that he could cure my cold with a manipulation. I just had to lay down right there on the hole three putting green while he twisted and turned me this way and that. I told him he was fucking crazy, refused his free services, and was miraculously cured of the cold a couple of days later anyway. He graduated with honors from Palmer College of Chiropractic in Davenport, Iowa, and is now one of the top chiropractors in Iowa. Today, I think he is a crazy rich guy even though he loves to hunt pheasants, which would seem to make him sane. I'm sure he shrugs all the way to the bank, just like most chiro's. They have a degree, and even if they decide at some point that it is essentially worthless, it is the goose that laid their golden egg, and they've got to pay back the man.

Personally, I struggled with occasional lower back pain around a decade ago. I was told to simply ignore it by my family physician, work right through it, and stay active. I did that, and ever since, whenever a bit of pain pops up after a bad twisting fall or whatever throws my back, I throw bricks, lumber, garbage cans, cats, or whatever else I can bend over and pick up around until the pain disintegrates magically. It is a very soothing and peaceful treatment save for when I reach for those cats the second time around

In summary, I believe that Chiropractors and a heaping pile of bricks are both effective treatments for lower back pain. Bricks are cheaper.