Visiting the Chiroquackter

[Twoplanker]

So I went to a Chiropractor for the first time yesterday and I've got mixed feelings about the legitimacy of the profession, or at least with this particular practicioner. I think there's a solid science there, but I was unimpressed with the infusion of (what appeared to me to be) pseudo-science mysticism.

The first thing that bothered me was that the good doctor told me, in the midst of his patronizing explanation about what he does and how the body works, that "we only use 10% of our brains. Einstein, who was a genius, used maybe 15% of his brain." Any doctor who believes this is true and/or conveys that to his patients is suspect, at the least. Then he told me in excruciating detail that, "pain is the body's way of telling us that something is wrong with our body."

I hope he understood that the blank stare I gave him meant "No shit Sherlock, that's why I'm sitting on butcher paper with my fucking shirt off."

Then, during my examination, the doc stands behind me with his left finger on a vertebrae in my spine. My right hand is extended outward and he is pressing down on it and telling me to keep it straight. As he moves his finger to different vertebrae he is ostensibly looking for problems in my spine by evaluating how easy/hard it is for me to keep my right arm extended under pressure.

Maybe my understanding of physics and physiology is too narrow or limited, but how is this supposed to work? Basically, he is implying that there is some sort of "energy connection" between his finger on my spine and my right hand. The strength in my arm changes in accordance with where his finger is on my spine? I call bullshit on that and was tempted to get him to explain exactly what he was doing, but I didn't have the energy to get into it with him. I just want to feel better, dammit.

I think the problem is a simple verterbral subluxation - one of my lumbar vertebrae is slightly out of line, putting pressure on the nerve. No real mystery here - if the vertebrae can be straightened then the problem is solved. Then, my sypmtoms, painful muscle contractions and soreness, can be alleviated by a little massage therapy. I think this is obvious, even to an idiot like me. If I had gone to a GP, I think he would have just spelled this out for me, instead of putting on the whole "healing hands" show.

What say you? Did I just go to the wrong guy, or is this what I can expect from the typical chiropractor? Am I just being too narrow-minded and skeptical?

I'm going back tomorrow to let this fucker "adjust" my spine, but I'm wondering if I should be going to a General Practicioner instead.

[CS]

It's been my experience where going to a good chiropracter was more beneficial than going to an Orthopedic Specialist. A couple years ago I separated my shoulder, both ER and Ortho docs said the same thing: nothing to do but wait and let it heal on its own. Well, for a week I just sat around, shoulder hurting like hell, when I decided to see the family Chiro. He asks if they set the shoulder, I tell him they did nothing. So he goes about doing somthing painful to my shoulder and "sets" it, whatever that meant.
Well, the next day it felt 100 times bettter and by the next week I was riding my bike. So what say I? Find a good one. Yeah, there are a lot that are a bit out there, but the good ones are dang good and know what they're up to.

[PlayHarder]

My gf has been seeing chiro's for quite a while to treat chronic lower problems and since we had been moving around alot over the last 8 years, got to see quite a few different ones. Some were really good and others, well...... I think its a case of really needing to research the chiropractors in your area, a bad can make the damage worse and a good one can almost work miracles. Do some checking, talk to others and get their opinion. One thing, a good chiropractor will use xrays, not just feel.
Good luck, we found a good one and the gf is skiing now after spending a few years in too much pain to do any more than go to work and come home to an ice pad.

[Twoplanker]

Originally posted by PlayHarder
My gf has been seeing chiro's for quite a while to treat chronic lower problems and since we had been moving around alot over the last 8 years, got to see quite a few different ones. Some were really good and others, well...... I think its a case of really needing to research the chiropractors in your area, a bad can make the damage worse and a good one can almost work miracles. Do some checking, talk to others and get their opinion. One thing, a good chiropractor will use xrays, not just feel.
Good luck, we found a good one and the gf is skiing now after spending a few years in too much pain to do any more than go to work and come home to an ice pad.

He took x-rays and will be evaluating them before my next visit. If he hadn't taken x-rays I would've walked out.

[irul&ublo]

Did he at least take an x-ray or review recent x-rays before he goes about adjusting your spine? If not, run away. If he suggests that you need a series of twice weekly adjustments for the next six months, run away.

BTW...I think chiropractic has its merits. I've had it done before for ongoing muscle spasms and it helped. My grandfather (RIP) and uncle were/are chiropractors. Neither of them ever thought they could cure cancer the common cold or any whacked shit, but they could sure make your back, neck or shoulders feel a whole lot better.

[Vinman]

I have never been to a chiropractor and I do not expect that I will ever go. Some people swear by them though. From stories that I have heard there are definitely differences between chiro's and what type of chiroing they do. There are your basic bone curshers that will manipulate, sorry, adjust every spine they see. And then will adjust your spine to treat your sprained ankle while they are at it. Then there are the mystic guys that believe the can cure everything from the common cold to cancer with spinal manipulation and finally there are some out there that wil evaluate your spine and adjust you if needed and give you some therapeutic exercise to do.

If you are loking for a chiro I would definitely find the third type. IMHO if there are any benefits to be had from this type of medicine it is from the third group.

But please don't get suckered into going for an adjustment just because the chiro says you need to. I have known people that have gone for adjustment every couple weeks or so for years on end. To me that does not sound legit.

Take this for what is worth, like I said I have never gone to a chiro and do not know that many personally. But do your homework before you go.

[skiguide]

the variety of practices in chiropractic care is totally amazing, with different theories & techniques. I definitely think it comes down to finding good one that you're comfortable with and have trust in that they are acutally helping you.

Mine is a little fruity in the sense that he takes a really holistic approach, saying that spinal care is critical to helping immuno problems and affects other body functions because obviously,t he spine is the central control system. But in a weird way, I also trust him more because he was an engineer before going into chiro, so his scientific approach is great too.

in addition to standard x-rays - he invested in this cool digital setup - a thermoscan type of tool, they 'zap' each vertabrae, and it reports to the Laptop, and creates a visual map of the 'hotspots' in your spine with a color scale - yellow/green is good, orange/red show areas he needs to work on -

his office also holds sessions for new patients explaining their whole approach, and citing some interesting results (ie, a woman who had daily migraines for months, and no doctors could figure out why, chiro treatments stopped them) and I definitely believe the immuno boost thing myself, i used to get sick pretty regularly and easily before i started going to him, i really haven't had a cold in over a year.

so if you're interviewing new people, I would definitely ask them to sit down and explain their whole approach before they even touch you and make some decisions based on that.

[Jiehkevarri]

(sorry quite long post, but need some help/opinions...docs, injured or anyone who happens to know about back issues, please check!)

I had a quite bad mtb injury over a year ago...'whiplash' type of thing (or ´huck neck´you could say)...from around 1m (~3feet?) straight to the head, just luckily got my left elbow between to take some impact (knock on wood)...and it was pure flat rock under. Don´t ask me how I've managed to do that... some serious misjudgement there.

Ok. First I went for a physiotherapist/massage about 5 times, this guy was like 'oh my god, good you didn't paralyzed...no sports for like half a year now, just walking' and so on. I was pissed and down.

To the other physiotherapist...this guy is a former old school slalom skier who´s knees are really facked, yet he still somehow manages to play soccer year around. His attitude 'shit happens, let´s do some massaging, and you hit the gym now for some time, it will be allright'

I just managed to get it a bit better and went skiing - the whole last season basically, ~80 days around Europe. Neck/back pain varied... skied easier than normally and took some massaging (this guy was these 'mystic' types, and always said that I have a lot of problems with my back) and once an acupunction (felt good, and at least relaxed the muscles really well) In the spring the neck was better, but pain somehow moved also to the lower back.

Then summer comes, lots of mtb (maybe too much, mostly xc, but some freeriding too), some tennis, jogging etc. Pain now and then. In the autumn also gym training, some massaging. Feels better. Then one crash on the bike, couple of days of really stiff neck.

Now in the wintertime, it felt really good in the beginning of the January. Then (stupid me) I went to do some park jumping after over a year hiatus, first time went ok, hit a bit bigger jump for only like 8 times, no pain afterwards. Then next weekend, I was like a kid in a candy store, did over 20 jumps, some 360's etc --> back stiff as hell now, lower back pains, some tingling in the nerves (again, for the first time in a half year or so)

I never did a magnet picturing of the neck/back, just rongten...and there wasn´t any real problem, just normal 'pain neck' = stiff muscles forcing the spine to be overly straight (or something like this)

Just happened to meet a dude who was an ostheopath(sp?english term?)...not chiropractor but something similar (a bit 'softer'therapy maybe?), do anybody know about this? Anyway the dude said that massage won´t help cause you have to stimulate and heal the nerves? BS or not?

What would you guys recommend? I've tried to strenghten the back/abs, stretching, swimming etc. Yoga maybe? In general, training at least heals the pain temporarily - when the muscles are warm, I barely feel any pain, sometimes no pain at all.

And, yes, I know, maybe I just should stop taking any air...damn it.

[Twoplanker]

Originally posted by Tap
i forget the name of the technique but i've seen it done before and think there is some validity

the basic idea here is that when you are healthy and your vertebre line up, your body as a system will/should function properly and you would be able to hold your arm up under light pressure. BUT, if your vertebre are already compromised or subluxated, than a little extra pressure on the offending vertebre is be enough to cause the "system" to fail, and your arm will succumb to the doctors pushing on it.

I understand, and that makes sense. BUT, the question I have is, how does my body KNOW when he has his finger on the "bad" vertebrae? Remember, the "test" he was using was pressure on my arm. The implication was that, by putting his finger on a spot on my body, somehow "information" about that spot was transferred to my arm. That defies logic and seems bogus to me.

[splat]

Originally posted by Jiehkevarri

Just happened to meet a dude who was an ostheopath(sp?english term?)...not chiropractor but something similar (a bit 'softer'therapy maybe?), do anybody know about this? Anyway the dude said that massage won´t help cause you have to stimulate and heal the nerves? BS or not?

What would you guys recommend? I've tried to strenghten the back/abs, stretching, swimming etc. Yoga maybe? In general, training at least heals the pain temporarily - when the muscles are warm, I barely feel any pain, sometimes no pain at all.

And, yes, I know, maybe I just should stop taking any air...damn it.

Osteopaths Rock! No BS.

[iceman]

Originally posted by splat
Osteopaths Rock! No BS.

Huh, I thought geologists did.

[Jiehkevarri]

Splat, you´re only giving me good advice today!

(others, check the 'Splat, phunk et al.' thread)

Gotta give it a try!

[Oarhead]

Basically the same as other people/s opinions. I was a high level athlete and had all sorts of body therapy to try and stay injury free. I am definitely a skeptic of lots of stuff out there. Now I am doing my grad degree in biomehcanics so I am getting another perspective since there are research chiros in the lab.

ALL of the chiros admit there are a lot of fruit and nut types out there. Too many chiros are all about the make work projects: they tell you that you need to keep returning a few times a week to get fixed - STAY AWAY FROM PEOPLE LIKE THAT - usually it ends up being like crack, you need to keep returning to stay functional.

The national research chair for chiro here told me that chiros can relieve the symptoms and give you proper alignment but it does not solve the problem (like poor posture and stuff like that). Any chiro worth their salt should be supplementing an adjustment with physio exercises. You have to fix the root problem. You should not have to keep going back to the guy just to relieve the symptoms, it is irresponsible of both the patient and the chiro.

Chiro has been good to me but I did a hell of a lot of research before I went and trusted them with my body.

Two planks, I don't know what the technique is called, but sometimes a problem 'refers' pain to different parts of the body. For example, one of your internal organs (I can't remember which one it is) makes your shoulder sore. I think that thepressing on your back in different points refers to different locations stemming from your trunk. Just my $0.02.

Oh yeah, if the chiro starts talking about auras and crystals and shizz like that you know you are not in the right office.

[Vinman]

Oarhead where are you doing your master's deg. Did my biomechanics master's at Ball State(testicle tech)

[Oarhead]

University of Calgary, Human Performance lab. Pretty cool place, we do a lot of adidas' testing for shoes and stuff. A mixed bag of people here, physicians, physicists, chiros, engineers (me), mathematicians, statisticians, kinesiologists, biologists, physios, etc... Really cool stuff.
It keeps me off the streets at night.

[The AD]

Originally posted by Tap
Some people go so far as to think that by touching certain organs and then doing the push test, they can infer about the health of the organ

If the chiro starts touching your organ, get out!

[Buzzworthy]

Originally posted by Twoplanker
I understand, and that makes sense. BUT, the question I have is, how does my body KNOW when he has his finger on the "bad" vertebrae? Remember, the "test" he was using was pressure on my arm. The implication was that, by putting his finger on a spot on my body, somehow "information" about that spot was transferred to my arm. That defies logic and seems bogus to me.

If something is not working right in your body, you have less strength as a result (for the most part), correct?? Thus the pressure test on the arm.

It is not so much a "bad" vertabrae, but is a spot that is more sensitive nerve wise. If a nerve is not in the right spot or pinched, the arm will be more difficlut to hold up as he puts pressure to push it down. At least that is how I was expained by my Chiro.

This is so typical for many practices and I have had that test so many times.

Now, he does sound a bit quackish compared to other Chiros I have seen, but like the first run on skis this year you said I went into it with a bad attitude and was questioning myself before I even got off the chair. I think you have a preconceived notion of Chiros and you simply do not think they will help, right from the get go. At least that is the impression I got.

Now try this: You have allergies right? Take something that you are NOT allergic to and put it on your cheek/nose area and have your wife push down on you arm at a constant pressure and you do your best to hold it up. Next, take something you are allergic too (rent's blanket with cat hair all over it) and put that up to your cheek/nose area. You will find that you can barely hold your arm up from that same pressure on your arm from your wife after you hold it there for a 30-60 secs.

This is how my allergist told me to test pillows to make sure I am not allergic to the fill or material, as I have hayfever. So if you see me in JCPenny's holding a pillow over my face and a beautiful blonde is pushing down on my arm, I'm shopping for a new pillow.

He should sit down with you and show you the angles and all this other crap with the exrays before he adjusts your back. If he does not, I would recommend asking him to learn more and ask him more on the arm push test. Then you will be that much more informed if you ever have a problem again and can make the choice of a doc or Chiro.

Remember that song, "The knee bone is connected to the ...... bone, the ...... is connected to the ....." and so on. There must be something to that.

[CaddyDaddy77]

Think there's some good info here, and I can't attest to know what your Chiro wasa doing, mine has done that before.

I seldom go but have had really good results. I broke 6 ribs and damaged a lot of my lower back 3 yrs ago, basically looked like Vinnie did a number on me with a bat. Back was black and blue from the crack of my ass to almost my shoulder blades, couldn't sit, sleep, basically felt worse than I ever had before in my life.
GP gave me bs for pain meds and was constantly waking myself up in pain if I was gettin any sleep. They said I would have lower back pain for a long time, in connection with other health problems from this incident, not what I wanted to hear.

Went to a guy after the recommendation of a freind. He worked with me for a couple of weeks, and gave me a program of stuff to do at home, stretches, and core excercises.
Swelling and bruising went down siginificantly, even though he was working on me weekly, and I started being able to sleep, and not be in so much pain. As mentioned, the whole you will have to do this for months, bs, is what steered me away originally. This guy gave me excercises and literature to do by myself at home, so I wouldn't have that exact thing. I still use a bunch of the stretches, and excercises, to maintain my back, and haven't had problems since.

There's good ones out there, you just have to sort them out, oh, and don't be skewed if your sore the day after, it's natural.

[Twoplanker]

Originally posted by Buzzworthy

Now, he does sound a bit quackish compared to other Chiros I have seen, but like the first run on skis this year you said I went into it with a bad attitude and was questioning myself before I even got off the chair. I think you have a preconceived notion of Chiros and you simply do not think they will help, right from the get go. At least that is the impression I got.

Well, there is a difference between having a bad attitude and having a healthy skepticism. When a medical doctor begins his relationship with you by repeating a totally false and totally ridiculous statement about how the human brain works in order to explain how he does his job, I think a little skepticism is in order. I expect laypeople to say stupid shit, but when a guy who is about to "adjust" my spine tells me that humans only use 10% of their brains, I'm having second thoughts about him. Anyone who has taken an undergraduate psychology or biology course knows this cannot be true and an MD should simply laugh at the suggestion.

Just think about this: "What data were used to come up with the number - 10%? Does this mean that you would be just fine if 90% of your brain was removed? If the average human brain weighs 1,400 grams (about 3 lb) and 90% of it was removed, that would leave 140 grams (about 0.3 lb) of brain tissue. That's about the size of a sheep's brain. It is well known that damage to a relatively small area of the brain, such as that caused by a stroke, may cause devastating disabilities. Certain neurological disorders, such as Parkinson's Disease, also affect only specific areas of the brain. The damage caused by these conditions is far less than damage to 90% of the brain."

By the way, for those of you interested in the "dude, we only use 10% of our brains" myth, check out the following links:

http://www.csicop.org/si/9903/ten-percent-myth.html

http://www.theness.com/articles/brain-nejs0201.html

http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm

[Buzzworthy]

Restated without any other crap:

"I think you have a preconceived notion of Chiros and you simply do not think they will help, right from the get go. At least that is the impression I got."

You obvioulsy think they are quacks, so why go is my main question.

"Well, there is a difference between having a bad attitude and having a healthy skepticism."

There is?? I don't believe that completely. Either way, you are going into the situation questioning what you are doing.

Hope your back feels better regardless.

[Twoplanker]

Originally posted by Buzzworthy
Restated without any other crap:

"I think you have a preconceived notion of Chiros and you simply do not think they will help, right from the get go. At least that is the impression I got."

You obvioulsy think they are quacks, so why go is my main question.

"Well, there is a difference between having a bad attitude and having a healthy skepticism."

There is?? I don't believe that completely. Either way, you are going into the situation questioning what you are doing.

I'm asking the collective about their experiences with chiropractic because I have not made up my mind. My point is that my doctor stated a medical myth, which, among other things concerned me and caused me to be skeptical. There really is a difference beteween a bad attitude and skepticism, honest!

[BradyCU]

I use chiro all the time being a jibber/dirt jumper in the summer. A good one will pop the shit out of your back and you'll feel thousands of times better, you saw a sciency one...they suck balls, go to one that wants to make you feel better not doing the shit you were talking about. Usually you'll need to make 3-5 visits to compelety heal, aka the muscels get enough used to the proper alignment that they no longer force the vertebre out of alignment. A bad chrio is a waste of time and a good one is worth more than gold. Go see someone else. But don't give up on the good they can do.


Yes I know I can't spell so no need to mention it everyone

[char]

Then, during my examination, the doc stands behind me with his left finger on a vertebrae in my spine. My right hand is extended outward and he is pressing down on it and telling me to keep it straight. As he moves his finger to different vertebrae he is ostensibly looking for problems in my spine by evaluating how easy/hard it is for me to keep my right arm extended under pressure.

Um, you said you have a lumbar problem, right?

So he was putting his finger on a vertebrae in your lumbar region? Maybe he was trying to tell you that there is a connection from your arm to that particular vertebrae, which is bullshit because the nerve that controls your arm exits your spine around the level of your shoulder (imagine that....).

Now, if he was assessing how putting pressure on your arm caused your spine to move, thats something else, but if he is trying to tell you that the nerves in your arm are sending a signal to the spot he was touching on your back it would appear that he is full of shit.

Something else to consider: You don't seem to be comfortable with this guy. For whatever reason, maybe it's the bullshit he is flinging at you, maybe it's something else. Whatever. Find another doc, you already don't seem to think this guy can help you, why bother with him? If your insurance allows find someone else.

[Twoplanker]

Yeah, maybe you and Buzz are right. I probably shouldn't go back and see a dotor that I think is a flake.

If I can get out of it I probably will.