Top Boxer vs. Top UFC Fighter?

[iceman]

My buddy and I have been having this debate for a while now. I say any top-level boxer would absolutely kill the top-level UFC guy at the same weight. He says the opposite.

We are not making any progress in this debate, so I look to the maggots for their opinion.

My main point is that there is so much more money involved in boxing that the better fighters will always gravitate (or at least so far HAVE gravitated) to boxing. I believe boxers are better athletes, better fighters, tougher, etc., etc.

He grants me that but says all a UFC guy has to do is get past the first punch and get the guy on the ground, where the boxer will be helpless and the UFC dude will tear him in half.

I counter by saying that you can tell UFC is not that good because it's mostly white guys, the UFC guy would get his head knocked off before he could tackle the boxer.

He counters by saying I shouldn't be so self-loathing, there are plenty of good white athletes in the world, and all it takes is a bullrush to knock the boxer on his ass and he's done. Plus he says no boxer could withstand the kicks the UFC guys lay down.

We are at an impasse.

What sez ye?

[Tippster]

Current Heavyweight Champ is a White guy, Ice.

The first kick to the knee would end the boxer's chances, since he's not trained to worry about his legs.

[f2f]

a pure boxer could throw a good punch, but will be unable to handle a grappler. the gracies showed that grappling is more effective than any other martial art pretty early on in the UFC. hence everybody at the top is now "mixed martial arts" specialist. what i'm saying is, there's no 'UFC' as a style, it's a mix of everything.

i can't find the vid, but watched it on tv: a boxer vs a brawler (just someone who used to fight in bars and thought 'i can make it as a boxer'). well, that guy was outclassed in 30 seconds by someone who clearly knew technique. he was laid flat.

[iceman]

Current Heavyweight Champ is a White guy, Ice.

Yeah I know. Two of the four are, actually. That's a sidelight.

The first kick to the knee would end the boxer's chances, since he's not trained to worry about his legs.

So you're one of them, huh? When the dude leans back to load up on the kick (they always do) and then leans forward to deliver it, he'd get his head ripped off by, say, Marvin Hagler in his prime or Floyd Mayweather now. No doubt in my mind. In my humble fucking opinion, I mean to say.

[iceman]

a pure boxer could throw a good punch, but will be unable to handle a grappler. the gracies showed that grappling is more effective than any other martial art pretty early on in the UFC. hence everybody at the top is now "mixed martial arts" specialist. what i'm saying is, there's no 'UFC' as a style, it's a mix of everything.

i can't find the vid, but watched it on tv: a boxer vs a brawler (just someone who used to fight in bars and thought 'i can make it as a boxer'). well, that guy was outclassed in 30 seconds by someone who clearly knew technique. he was laid flat.

Your point evades me.

[fez]

the boxer will always be held back by rules. even if the boxer is told not to worry about the queensbury rules they still have internalized so many of them into their style that they would be held back. the more 'liberal' (i guess) ufc rules would work to the advantage of those that know them. A superior athlete working with an unfamiliar ruleset is at a disadvantage. A little like team USA in the last olympic basketball tournament.
i think the dog in the fight would matter more than the format of the fight though. keep in mind, top level boxers have piles of money to motivate them. plenty of the ufc guys just do it because they are out of their damn minds. its not always the most physically talented fighter who wins. just plain mean goes a long way.

[f2f]

my point is, there are many techniques that do not require the use of hands at all. if all you're doing is relying on a boxer to land one good punch then your idea of boxing is the same as Rocky Balboa's -- whoever gets the angriest and manages to land the hardest punch wins. this speaks nothing of technique. look at the "rumble in the jungle": a much fitter, much stronger and bigger fighter was beaten by a smart, lighter, faster and more agile boxer (with the help of some soft ropes and a good psych).

another example: andy houg was a fantastic karateka, then a K1 champion. he used to keep people at bay by leg kicks. he could win a match simply by hitting you repeatedly (he was very fast) in the same place of your outer thigh until the muscles cramped and you simply couldn't walk.

speaking of "athleticism": when was the last time a boxer was in a 15-round match? look at Sakuraba (PRIDE fighting, arguably the smartest mixed martial arts fighter out there) whose match against Royce Gracie in 2000 lasted 90 minutes!

[RootSkier]

one of those crazy fucking monkey fighters would just lay down and do leg sweeps until the boxer fell down. game set match.

i learned that shit playing street fighter 2.

[iceman]

Maybe it's ignorance on my part but I was including the Pride fighters with the UFC guys. Also kickboxers, anybody you want to name.

I hear fez's point, but I believe the athleticism of the best boxers trumps the rest of the crowd every time. think about it: If you could fight for $5mm, why would you fight for $100K?

The guys who fight for $100k are the guys that got their asses kicked when they tried to box.

[iceman]

Like the same friend I'm having this debate with says, "Every soccer team in America is composed of kids who couldn't hit a baseball."

If you follow me.

[StuntCok]

Now, a subject that I truly know. I used to fight professionally, first as a full contact karate fighter and then as a kickboxer and i have done mma fighting as well. Even pro boxers will tell you that they will lose to fighters from more loose rule systems. A grappler generally dives (called a "shoot") at the legs from a distance that is further away than a boxer's reach. When doing so, he only really exposes the top of his head to a cheeky punch and even then, the hard knockout punch are delivered when someone is on the way out, not in. The jaw, where most knockouts are landed, is protected. Anyway, I have NEVER seen a real punch landed on someone "shooting". I have seen knees and kicks land but they start from a lower point and move up. Still, even knees are hard to use and if any of those techniques do not result in a one hit knockout, you are fucked. The real defence against a shoot is called a "sprawl" where you shoot your legs wide and back so the grappler misses, while guiding him down while pushing on his back (also holding your balance up). Another grappler may then try to get on top or a kicker will take low kicks at him as he tries to get his bearings. If you do not know how to sprawl (and few boxer do) they will be grappled VERY quickly, no matter how good a puncher he is. Moving back with your weight balanced, as strikers are trained to do will probably get you caught, trying to punch will defenitely get you caught.

After grappling, low kicks are the bane of boxer's existence. You do not have to drop your guard to deliver them (they are not actually to the knee, by the way, but just above on the quad to cause the muscle to seeze). That is why boxers fared well against kickboxers from styles that did not kick low as higher kicks tend to cause fighter to lean and drop their gaurd, but when trying to strike fighters who had strong guards in place while delivering low kicks, boxers got savaged. In fact, the process of delivering a punch while someone is low kicking is very dangerous. Punching plants your feet harder and exposes more of the muscle that the low kick is targeting, making a low kick far more effective. In fact, most knockouts of boxers by kickboxers is a result of this very thing.

However, the idea that grappling is domintant as proven by the Gracies is now also false. As fighters learned the "sprawl" and the defences against joint lock techniques were learned (almost any lock has a counter, that is why you see far few submissions these days- this was proven very effectively when sakuraba defended against all of Royce Gracie's submissions, got up and broke his leg with a low kick.) The dominant fighter in mixed martial arts now is Mirco Crocop, a southpax kickboxer.

Finally, UFC is actually second tier even amonst the mixed martial arts. Pride and K-1 here in Japan is by far larger, mainstream and fighters make multiples of what UFC fighters do.

[f2f]

I consider Oscar de la Hoya the smartest boxer out there who still fights. against him i think nobody in his category in ufc would win if they do just boxing (gloves, no grappling, no leg kicks). i agree with you: boxing has much more money involved and at their peak, boxers are perhaps the best fit athletes in their category. i think, however, that the best prepared MMA fighter has a better chance against the best prepared boxer in a freestyle match (all techniques) simply because an MMA must be able to protect and attack in so many different styles.

i found one fight by Hug (i misspelled his name) where you can see a simply inoquous leg kick (thrown just after being in a full boxing defense position) bring a fighter down:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uvIzK8IhVFE

[Chainsaw_Willie]

iceman, the problem is the boxers don't know how to do anything but box. Most of the UFC guys definitely don't seem to be good boxers, but if they can avoid the boxer's punch and get inside to grapple with him, or get his legs tangled up, what's the boxer going to do? He doesn't know how to defend against the grappling and submission holds. Boxing is one-dimensional, UFC-style fighting has several different avenues to victory. So a guy is a lousy boxer, if he's a good wrestler or kicker then he can make a little money in the UFC, and if he gets in the ring with a guy who only knows how to box and can avoid a devastating punch, then he's got a good advantage.

The problem, of course, is avoiding the devastating punch...

[StuntCok]

I consider Oscar de la Hoya the smartest boxer out there who still fights. against him i think nobody in his category in ufc would win if they do just boxing (gloves, no grappling, no leg kicks). i agree with you: boxing has much more money involved and at their peak, boxers are perhaps the best fit athletes in their category. i think, however, that the best prepared MMA fighter has a better chance against the best prepared boxer in a freestyle match (all techniques) simply because an MMA must be able to protect and attack in so many different styles.

i found one fight by Hug (i misspelled his name) where you can see a simply inoquous leg kick (thrown just after being in a full boxing defense position) bring a fighter down:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uvIzK8IhVFE

No, Hug is correct. That was Andy Hug of Switzerland whom was a friend and someone who I trained karate and then kickboxing with when I first came to Japan. Sadly, he died of cancer about 6 years ago, at the prime of his life. One of the greatest people I have ever known.

[fez]

Maybe it's ignorance on my part but I was including the Pride fighters with the UFC guys. Also kickboxers, anybody you want to name.

I hear fez's point, but I believe the athleticism of the best boxers trumps the rest of the crowd every time. think about it: If you could fight for $5mm, why would you fight for $100K?

The guys who fight for $100k are the guys that got their asses kicked when they tried to box.

so they suck at boxing, they are REALLY good at ass whoopin though.
if you put gloves on a ufc fighter and stuck them in a ring the boxer will win every time. take the gloves off and turn the ring into a cage and i think the ufc fighters have an advantage. narrow specialization is not an advantage in any survival situation.

How about Bill Johnson at Sarajevo in 1984? he sure showed that just plain crazy can beat talented athletes. he beat out peter muller and pirmin zurbriggen by a quarter second for the gold.

edit: note to self, DO NOT fuck with StuntCok.

[f2f]

However, the idea that grappling is domintant as proven by the Gracies is now also false.

I'm sorry, I was not clear: grappling was "dominant" only in the early UFC, when fighters were considered representing a style. As you say defensive (and attacking) techniques were adopted pretty fast afterwards, hence the "Mixed Martial Arts".

I agree with everything else you said, thanks for sharing your insight!

[f2f]

No, Hug is correct. That was Andy Hug of Switzerland

I misspelled him as Houg in my first post. He was our hero as karatekas: we watched tapes of him fighting the Kyokushin tournaments only to lose to a japanese karateka in the final (scored), because he was european!

edit: the kyokushin championships were scored

[iceman]

Stunt, you obviously know more than me. But just for clarity's sake I was talking about champion vs. champion.

You don't think that say, Roy Jones a few years ago wouldn't have caught the diving guy with an uppercut that knocked his head off? Then move, set up and kill the guy in seconds as he tried to get up?

I've been lectured on this a lot but I still can't see, I dunno, let's say Julio Cesar Chavez his prime getting beaten by anyone but a better boxer.

[StuntCok]

Stunt, you obviously know more than me. But just for clarity's sake I was talking about champion vs. champion.

You don't think that say, Roy Jones a few years ago wouldn't have caught the diving guy with an uppercut that knocked his head off? Then move, set up and kill the guy in seconds as he tried to get up?

I've been lectured on this a lot but I still can't see, I dunno, let's say Julio Cesar Chavez his prime getting beaten by anyone but a better boxer.

No way. You are thinking about the grappler coming in and grabbing at arms length like judo fighters do. The trajectory of the shoot is such that by the time he is in upercut range, his head is way to low to punch from below or the side (think of upercutting something just above your knee). Even if you could, it would be slow, week and from a very unbalanced position i.e. unlikely to result in the one hit knockout needed. You also pretty much have to hit the jaw to knock him out, which is tucked in (a shoot is not done looking up at your opponent for this reason). A hit to the forehead will not work.

[AfroMullet]

if jackie chan can kill an army, a ufc fighter can beat a boxer.















i have no fucking idea what relevance that has.

[iceman]

Well maybe we should make some money and find out for real, Ali fought, what, a kickboxer? I bet there's people who would pay to see the speed power and athleticism of a premier boxer and how it works in a different arena.

heh

[fez]

I think it would be a lot like taking elite alpine racers to a free ski comp.

[iceman]

I think it would be a lot like taking elite alpine racers to a free ski comp.

Or perhaps vice versa.

[iceman]

Not that you would take the comp to the racers, I mean it would be like taking top freeskiers (most of whom raced, I know) to an FIS event and seeing what happens.

[Tri-Ungulate]

What I wanna know is how 42 Cambodian midgets will do against the winnah of the UFC-boxer match.