Is it World War III

[MeatPuppet]

I'm not laying this at the feet of Israel - but I can see how those who view the conflict in binary terms would think that. Merely pointing out situations where Israeli actions have perpetuated the problem in the short term at a minimum. You can argue moral absolutes and philosophy if you want, rarely do those produce positive solutions in the real world. The conditioned statehood the US & Israel have backed for the PA merely gives them a more legitimate (IMO, and many peoples) grievance to add to their long list of rightfully/wrongfully perceived grievances.

I agree that the Israel/Palistinian conflict is anything but binary, it involves the whole region. But the visible players at the friction point both have a long list of greviences against each other. So, what would you do?

Far too many of the Palistinians are uneducated people who have never known anything but hatred and violence.

Would you give the Palistinians the right of Return? Allow guest workers into Israel dispite the terrorist attacks that came with them? Not allow Israel to retaliate for attacks against it's civilians?

You suddenly become cjAlmighty, what do you do?

[Tippster]

I love that - "The Right to Return." They were there as long as the Jews were historically (called the Philistines in the Bible) and were forced to flee 60 years ago. You're goddamn right they have a right to return.

BTW - the only Arab Israelis are those who never left when the state of Israel was founded - the small minority who were willing to submit themselves to a Theocracy based not on their religion. Palestinians at large have the same right of history (if not stronger - they stayed vs. moving to Europe) as the Zionists.

Russian Jews can immigrate with impunity, folks who have absolutely no connection to Israel other than their religion - they don't even speak Hebrew (which is causing as big a stink in Israel as Spanish is here.) Palestinians whose farms are now occupied by a kibbutz or whose houses are now shiny Apartment Complexes in Tel Aviv can not. Gee, why are they being so unreasonable?

[MeatPuppet]

Back when the israelies locked arafat in his house for a year or so, destroyed the airport, wrecked palestinian police stations and other gov't buildings... well, I'd call that destoying Palestinian infrastructure.

True, but Israel didn't just wake up on the wrong side of the bed one morning and decide to put Arafat under house arrest. It was in response to a long string of terrorist attacks in Israel; again the Palestinians were the initiator of the actions that lead to that crackdown.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that Israel is totally in the moral right. Now, with that out of the way, let's be pragmatic. What is the best way to resolve this conflict?

I don't have a good answer. It is impossible to have any constructive relationship with people who want to kill you more than they want to live. The only answer to people like that is to kill them. But those Palestinians are mixed in with other Palestinians who are willing to live in peace with Israel. The only way this will be resolved in any meaningful way is for the Palestinians who want peace to rise up and clean house. This goes for Lebanon as well. Until they can do that, this conflict will continue.

[iceman]

You seem somewhat emotionally involved in this issue, Tipp. History is written and borders are drawn by the winners. Every place on earth that people live, somebody else lived there before them. To what arbitrary point in history would you like the world to return?

[Jim S]

Like it or not, right or wrong, the Israelis are a force to be reckoned with.
There is a reason why after thousands of years, nearly every holiday in Judaism can be summed up like this:

We fought
We won
Let's eat

[MeatPuppet]

Gee, why are they being so unreasonable?

So what would you do with the situation? You are right about the palestinian claim to the land, but the UN put Israel where it is. Things are what they are. What would you do today to resolve this conflict?

[Tippster]

Not really, Ice. I just hear the other side of the story every day working with Arabs and Arab Americans, and am rather convinced that it takes two to fight. In my original (non-sober) post I did say that I think the fault lies to a greater part on the Arab's "Destroy Israel" cottage industry, but unfortunately this issue isn't black & white. It would be so much easier if it was.

The main problem I see in the conflict is the willful ignorance of the parties involved. They refuse to acknowledge ANY reasonable argument, regardless of side. Just as the Israelis have a right to exist so do the Palestinians.

Edit: what would I do? The UN caused this mess, they should Police the region with a multinational force. Yes there are rockets being shot into Israel from Lebanon. They are NOT being shot by the Lebanese Army. Hunt down those responsible (Hezbollah) and hold them accountable in an International court of Law. Do not, however, bomb Beirut neighborhoods and the airport.

There have been 13 people killed in DC this month, most by African Americans from 2 distinct neighborhoods. Nobody is chucking shells in there in retalliation.

[Will]

The only way this will be resolved in any meaningful way is for the Palestinians who want peace to rise up and clean house. This goes for Lebanon as well. Until they can do that, this conflict will continue.

I don't think that will happen as long as Israel pursues a policy of collective punishment and infrastructure destruction. They will create failed states around them full of resentful people without hope. Those people, in the absence of a stable, moderate government will further turn to extremism and violence.

[Tuckerman]

Edit: what would I do? The UN caused this mess, they should Police the region with a multinational force. Yes there are rockets being shot into Israel from Lebanon. They are NOT being shot by the Lebanese Army. Hunt down those responsible (Hezbollah) and hold them accountable in an International court of Law. Do not, however, bomb Beirut neighborhoods and the airport.

You trust the UN? the airport are where the rockets come from and the neighborhoods are where the rockets are stored. Can you just march into another country grab who you think is resposible and hold them accountable in a court of law? Good luck.

There have been 13 people killed in DC this month, most by African Americans from 2 distinct neighborhoods. Nobody is chucking shells in there in retalliation.

And

[Tippster]

You trust the UN? the airport are where the rockets come from and the neighborhoods are where the rockets are stored. Can you just march into another country grab who you think is resposible and hold them accountable in a court of law? Good luck.

Where the fuck are you getting that from? The IDF? You trust them?

You certainly can hold people accountable in an International Court if all the parties agree to uphold the court's rulings, regardless of outcome. A Neutral Party (which the US has shown repeatedly it is NOT) is necessary to arbitrate this conflict:

UNITED NATIONS, July 13 (Reuters) - The United States on Thursday vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution put forward by Qatar condemning Israel's two-week military incursion into Gaza

Of course the DC example was hyperbole.

[TJ.Brk]

Like it or not, right or wrong, the Israelis are a force to be reckoned with.
There is a reason why after thousands of years, nearly every holiday in Judaism can be summed up like this:

We fought
We won
Let's eat

Amen Jim, Amen

[Dexter Rutecki]

Back when the israelies locked arafat in his house for a year or so, destroyed the airport, wrecked palestinian police stations and other gov't buildings... well, I'd call that destoying Palestinian infrastructure.

This was also a period of quiet in terms of terrorist attacks, giving the lie to the line that the PA had been touting that the terrorists were not in their control. When Arafat was boxed in in Bethlehem there were virtually no attacks, and that followed a period of heavy violence.

- Will collective punishment resolve the problem? If so, how and when? Those of you who support collective punishment please speak up. How many people do you think need to die, or how many buildings need to be destroyed, before the corrupt regimes surrounding Israel shape up?

It's not a matter of collective punishment, even though the effect may be the same. Israel is attacking infrastructure and military/terrorist targets. There is a lot of pressure, even in Gaza, from civilians on the militants, and it's obviously in Israel's interest (and ultimately the Palestinian people's interest) to increase this pressure. If Arafat had allowed Abbas to deliver a bit more several years ago Hamas might never have been elected and the landscape for everyone would look a lot different.
But it's also important to remember that no Israeli government (and probably no government anywhere) could allow its populace to be under constant attack and not respond militarily. I would vote out any government that sent terrorists the message that my city or country was fair game, even if I disagreed with its other policies (the Palestinians essentially put Sharon in office thanks to this sort of thinking).

- Will the destruction of infrastructure (Palestinian and Lebanese) encourage those gov'ts to work with israel? Will it similarly encourage the local population? Why won't it leave a mess of a failed state behind that will serve as a further breeding ground for terrorists?

I believe that it will encourage suppression of the militants--Lebanon and Syria should certainly be reminded by this that they need to control their proxies. I know that in Gaza a lot of locals tried to keep militants from attacking Israel with mixed success, but the election of Hamas more or less put an end to this.

Essentially, I think Israel's actions are counter-productive. They can't occupy and hold territory, but they can whup ass when and how they feel like it. But with each attack or incursion they create more resentment and hate. It may be "morally right" for Israel to respond as it has, but is it productive? Will it get them what they want? Or will it leave them surrounded by failed states who do not have the power or authority to reign in or respond to the extremists in their populations?

I have no idea what the ultimate effect of this will be, but it's not as if this is the first time we've been through this. It's not as if Hezbollah and Hamas were about to lay down their arms and sign treaties before this, and given Israel's disengagement from Gaza and earlier retreat from Lebanon, the 'carrot' didn't seem to do any more good than the 'stick' will do harm. At the least this will disrupt Hezbollah and Hamas and remind Syria and Lebanon that this is not in their interest.
Do you think Israel should not have responded to the attacks?

Also, Zionist is not a racist term. At least as I use it it refers to someone who with near unquestioning certitude believes in the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. Essentially, it's an israeli Patriot (though they may not be a citizen).

And finally, Israeli falafel sucks. Turkish is better, but my heart belongs with Lebanese falafel.... hhmmmmm tasty.[/QUOTE]

[Dexter Rutecki]

I love that - "The Right to Return." They were there as long as the Jews were historically (called the Philistines in the Bible) and were forced to flee 60 years ago. You're goddamn right they have a right to return.

There is no chance they will have a 'right to return'. Many left believing what the Arab governments told them, that they would return to take control of the defeated and destroyed new state.

BTW - the only Arab Israelis are those who never left when the state of Israel was founded - the small minority who were willing to submit themselves to a Theocracy based not on their religion. Palestinians at large have the same right of history (if not stronger - they stayed vs. moving to Europe) as the Zionists.

Calling Israel a theocracy is inaccurate, as its government is secular with guaranteed freedoms for all religions. The Arabs who left did not want to live there, and chose to believe in or participate in a war against Israel. They lost, and from my point of view forfeited any right they had to the land. I would not agree that Palestinians who left, hoping to destroy Israel, have any right to return. And several generations on the point is moot (do Iraqi/Syrian/Egyptian Jews who were forced out have a right to return?).

Russian Jews can immigrate with impunity, folks who have absolutely no connection to Israel other than their religion - they don't even speak Hebrew (which is causing as big a stink in Israel as Spanish is here.) Palestinians whose farms are now occupied by a kibbutz or whose houses are now shiny Apartment Complexes in Tel Aviv can not. Gee, why are they being so unreasonable?

You're painting a fairly inaccurate picture. Tel Aviv basically did not exist until Jews began building there over 100 years ago (they could not live in Jaffa due to Arab resistance), so there aren't shiny apartment complexes on top of old Palestinian land. There may be kibbutzes in some places on formerly Arab land, but arguing that Palestinians now have some right to the land is like arguing that Manhattan should revert to the Indians.

[Will]

Do you think Israel should not have responded to the attacks?

No, Israel should have responded. But (and I'm totally backseat driving as I have no strategic military experience nor in-depth knowledge of the politics of the region, but hey, I've got a lot of company) I think their present course of action is counter-productive and will not solve any of their problems.

And in response to the whole "locking arafat in his house" period. I'm not arguing that the action was unprovoked, or anything like that. I was just saying that Israel has attacked the infrastructure of the Palestinian state before. Their actions had short term benefit at the time, but has that strategy worked out today?

I don't think collective punishment and infrastructure destruction create the sort of political will and resolve that the Israelies need to see in the palestinian and surrounding states.

[iceman]

I don't think collective punishment and infrastructure destruction create the sort of political will and resolve that the Israelies need to see in the palestinian and surrounding states.

What they want is to make life miserable enough for the populace at large that they will boot the terrorists out themselves. Seems fairly sensible to me, at least better than going in and killing everyone.

[TJ.Brk]

Well they are reporting now that the 2 Israeli soldiers that were kidnapped are being moved to Iran. If that is the case then look out folks. Israel will bomb the shit out of Iran, and we would join in. Then Iran will call for a complete holy war. Mass troops on the border with Iraq hoping that Syria and all the other muslim middleast states will join them. They won't naturally, because they don't want to become a glass parking lot.

[Will]

What they want is to make life miserable enough for the populace at large that they will boot the terrorists out themselves.

I think rather than boot the terrorist, they will join them.

[cj001f]

What they want is to make life miserable enough for the populace at large that they will boot the terrorists out themselves. Seems fairly sensible to me, at least better than going in and killing everyone.

Except when the terrorists are the major providers of social services - even power (see above). Great idea - further strengthen the terrorists hands by eliminating any secular competitors for their non-terror services. Oh - and piss the residents off with 'innocents' being killed so people are more inclined to join the terror section. A1 plan champ.

[shamrockpow]

BTW - the only Arab Israelis are those who never left when the state of Israel was founded - the small minority who were willing to submit themselves to a Theocracy based not on their religion.

This is where I'm seeing overemotional responses Tipp.

Theocracy? Most Israelis (including Jews, Muslims, and other) are secular and the beaches are packed on saturdays (the sabath). Israel is no more a theocracy than our Latin American neighbors that are officially "Catholic Nations". Many countries, even Western ones, have officialy state-sanctioned churches. As long as they don't persecute their minority populations I hardly see how that qualifies as a theocracy...

[PNWbrit]

There is no chance they will have a 'right to return'. Many left believing what the Arab governments told them, that they would return to take control of the defeated and destroyed new state.


Calling Israel a theocracy is inaccurate, as its government is secular with guaranteed freedoms for all religions. The Arabs who left did not want to live there, and chose to believe in or participate in a war against Israel. They lost, and from my point of view forfeited any right they had to the land. I would not agree that Palestinians who left, hoping to destroy Israel, have any right to return. And several generations on the point is moot (do Iraqi/Syrian/Egyptian Jews who were forced out have a right to return?).



You're painting a fairly inaccurate picture. Tel Aviv basically did not exist until Jews began building there over 100 years ago (they could not live in Jaffa due to Arab resistance), so there aren't shiny apartment complexes on top of old Palestinian land. There may be kibbutzes in some places on formerly Arab land, but arguing that Palestinians now have some right to the land is like arguing that Manhattan should revert to the Indians.

Israel is curently re-writing it's already discriminatory immigration laws to exclude non-jewish spouses of Israeli citizens from obtaining citizenship.

That doesn't seem like much of a guaranteed freedom to me.

[MeatPuppet]

A1 plan champ.

and your solution is...?

[iceman]

Except when the terrorists are the major providers of social services - even power (see above). Great idea - further strengthen the terrorists hands by eliminating any secular competitors for their non-terror services. Oh - and piss the residents off with 'innocents' being killed so people are more inclined to join the terror section. A1 plan champ.

Okay, well I didn't dream the plan up. What's your plan, champ?

[cj001f]

Okay, well I didn't dream the plan up. What's your plan, champ?

I didn't know realizing shits broken required me to fix it. Fuck, better stop all these debates

Secular alternatives to Hamas/terrorist brokered services and employment of even the menial kind to keep people productively engaged would be a start. Funny having to argue the benefits of economic growth to you people.

[iceman]

Obviously an improvement in their economic situation would lead to at least some ameliorization of the situation. Unfortunately the suicide bombings have made letting palestinians into Israel to work a problem. If the palestinians would say no mas then something could get started. But as long as they actively collaborate it's basically tough shit for them. They need to police themselves first, there's no way around it.

[cj001f]

Obviously an improvement in their economic situation would lead to at least some ameliorization of the situation. Unfortunately the suicide bombings have made letting palestinians into Israel to work a problem. If the palestinians would say no mas then something could get started. But as long as they actively collaborate it's basically tough shit for them. They need to police themselves first, there's no way around it.

Both Israel and Palestine have had extremists unsupported by the majority of the population kill and maim the opposition. Acting that 100% effectiveness - which is what is required by the US and Israel - is possible, even from a perfectly independant policing force, is a cynical farce.