Is it World War III

[Dexter Rutecki]

Whose elections Isreal refuses to support on the basis that their preferred candidate didn't win?

edg

What are you talking about? Israel didn't impede the elections, but saying they should support Hamas is like saying we should support the Taliban because that's what the Afghans wanted.

[shamrockpow]

Which Info?

"In a true Democracy the Arab Israelis would have roughly 40% of the seats in the Knesset. They would probably also have the single largest political party (since the Jews are so fractured between Likud, Labor, and the real kooks) that the Arabs would either 1) run the country since it's a parliamentary government with an appointed leader, not an elected one - or 2) force the jews into a coalition so fractuous that nothing would get done.

Israel operates under a de-facto Apartheid system. Zionists globally don't like the comparison, but it is what it is."

[shamrockpow]

Arab-Israelis have also won the Miss Israel competition and their version of American Idol.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Given that a vast majority of Israeli's are immigrants - many 2nd and 3rd generation, but immigrants nonetheless I have difficulty seeing how their reliance on ancient texts is superior to the rights of people who's families were actually living there for many generations.

2nd and 3rd generation, by definition, are not immigrants.
Jews have lived in Israel for hundreds, and in some cases, thousands of years. Someone put up a text earlier stating that Jews started coming in 1947, but that's completely wrong. I wouldn't rely on Biblical texts, but to imply that Israel's claim to its land is somehow illegitimate is ridiculous.

[Tippster]

Tipp: a quick run through Wikipedia shows that 17% of Israeli citizens are Arabs.

All of these folks can (and do) vote.

About 80% of them are Muslim.

They have 9 representatives in a 120 seat parliamentry body. Obviously, they don't have a fully proportional representation of their population, but then again black folks are ~10% of the U.S. population and they get ONE senator. Hispanics are just as underrepresented. Not justifying anything. Both systems could be better, but comparing Israel's politics to apartheid is way off.

Dude - the skewing factor in this argument are all the folks NOT considered full citizens, but guest laborers, etc. These are families whose roots in the area are far older than the existence of Israel.

Of course you're only going to have a small percentage of "citizens" in a state meant to exclude them from government.

BTW - I get my info from working directly with Palestinians, Lebanese, and Israelis. I also get my information by reading multiple news sources, conducting interviews of the involved parties, and making a (hopefully) reasoned conclusion on my own.

And identifying those who support the State of Israel as Zionists isn't "racist" at all. It has as much to do with race as "republicans" do with religion.

Zionism is a political movement among Jews, although supported by some non-Jews and not supported by some Jews, which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. Formally founded in 1897, Zionism embraced a variety of opinions in its early years on where that homeland might be established. From 1917 it focused on the establishment of a Jewish national homeland or state in Palestine, the location of the ancient Kingdom of Israel.

[Tippster]

"In a true Democracy the Arab Israelis would have roughly 40% of the seats in the Knesset. They would probably also have the single largest political party (since the Jews are so fractured between Likud, Labor, and the real kooks) that the Arabs would either 1) run the country since it's a parliamentary government with an appointed leader, not an elected one - or 2) force the jews into a coalition so fractuous that nothing would get done.

Israel operates under a de-facto Apartheid system. Zionists globally don't like the comparison, but it is what it is."

Sorry - I replied before reading on...

[edg]

What are you talking about? Israel didn't impede the elections, but saying they should support Hamas is like saying we should support the Taliban because that's what the Afghans wanted.

What am I talking about? Show me where, in that simple sentence, I said that Isreal impeded the elections in Palestine? No, instead, once the winner was (inevitably) an anti-isreali party, they have chosen not to recognize the victory.

edg

[shamrockpow]

2nd and 3rd generation, by definition, are not immigrants.
Jews have lived in Israel for hundreds, and in some cases, thousands of years. Someone put up a text earlier stating that Jews started coming in 1947, but that's completely wrong. I wouldn't rely on Biblical texts, but to imply that Israel's claim to its land is somehow illegitimate is ridiculous.

To be fair, Palestine was not very heavily populated by Jews prior to 1900. That said, there were over half a million Jews in the Middle East (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt all had sizable populations) total and they formed the basis of about half the Israeli population in 1948. Jews were not welcomed in their former homes, Arabs (who had fled) were not welcomed back to Israel. Neither side is "right", but to argue that Israel is equivalent to S. Africa or clearly holds the low ground seems silly.

[Tippster]

Just seeing how many times I can post on one page. Nothing to see here.

(Dex - didn't you & I have this discussion in a Bar on the UWS? )

[Speedfreak]

I'm in an intensive Arabic course at LAU.

Gotta say, I love this city - its a lot of fun when its not falling apart at the seams...but holy shit, this is more than I ever bargained for.

Don't have time to read the whole debate here, but yeah, the attacks on electricity and H2O would be a bit dubious if they went after the North and Beirut itself. Hizb'allah benefits from a lot of that infrastructure further south and in many cases actually owns and provides the utilities ("all your utilities courtesy of the Party of God" - helps with public relations I guess) to the public dirt cheap.
As far as I see it, both sides are retarded, and calling for the Lebanese government to crack down with their own military (if you can even call it that) is ridiculous. This state (or failed state) is held together by a thread, and some people like their scissors a bit too much...

That's about it for now from West Beirut. Take it easy all.

Oh, and Splat, I'm rocking my FKNA t shirt right now...gotta represent, right?
Haha. Sorry, trying to keep the mood light here.

[PNWbrit]

I also think that characterizing those who believe that there should be a Jewish state as "Zionists" is equally racist.

Slightly ironic to describe the meaning and use of the name of the very movement that led to the the foundation of Israeal as rascist but in the same sentence use the phrase "Jewish State"

What world would you prefer I use? Would you answr my point that the it's the classification of people by their religon that is the funadmental issue, and evil, here.

[EstoBum]

Fucking Cod Stealing Icelandic Bastards.

The newfies and cape bretoners will hand their asses to them, if they could only put down the bottles of screetch and rum. This battle will probably amount to a few empty bottles chucked between the fishing boats.

[Rontele]

Slightly ironic to describe the meaning and use of the name of the very movement that led to the the foundation of Israeal as rascist but in the same sentence use the phrase "Jewish State"

What world would you prefer I use? Would you answr my point that the it's the classification of people by their religon that is the funadmental issue, and evil, here.

As I understood it you seemed to imply that all people that believe that Israel should exist are "Zionists." Maybe I need to work on my reading comp...

[shamrockpow]

Dude - the skewing factor in this argument are all the folks NOT considered full citizens, but guest laborers, etc. These are families whose roots in the area are far older than the existence of Israel.

Of course you're only going to have a small percentage of "citizens" in a state meant to exclude them from government.

BTW - I get my info from working directly with Palestinians, Lebanese, and Israelis. I also get my information by reading multiple news sources, conducting interviews of the involved parties, and making a (hopefully) reasoned conclusion on my own.

And identifying those who support the State of Israel as Zionists isn't "racist" at all. It has as much to do with race as "republicans" do with religion.

This sounds more reasonable than the first statement. I know that your opinions are your own and I respect that. Occupying the West Bank and Gaza for so long was obviously a mistake by Israel (and driven largely by their own religious yahoos). But most Arabs that live in Israel, do have full rights. They have many fewer guest laborers than the U.S. has illegal immigrants. As a stretched, but not entirely crazy parallel: I don't see anyone standing up for the rights of mestizo and indigeno Mexicans to govern California and Texas.

[cj001f]

To be fair, Palestine was not very heavily populated by Jews prior to 1900. That said, there were over half a million Jews in the Middle East (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt all had sizable populations) total and they formed the basis of about half the Israeli population in 1948. Jews were not welcomed in their former homes, Arabs (who had fled) were not welcomed back to Israel.

That was my point about immigration.

And yes, Israel still has defacto control over the PA, they control m,ost access and egress, and economically dominate Palestine (Israeli economic policies re Palestinian are very short sighted and cynical - cut the palestinians at the kneecaps so there's 80% unemployment and you are surprised when terror is on the increase?)

[Dexter Rutecki]

What a purile argument.

Palestinian Nationalism, and all Arab Nationalism, is rascism and breeds hatred, contempt and violence.

Fixed it for you. But the old Zionism is Racism thing is a tired old saw employed by anti-Israel types, and holds no water. Not that I support Biblical claims to land, but you gotta deal with the 'facts on the ground'.

I think i'm right in saying that at the moment the majority of immigrants to Israel are actually converts to Judasim. Israel actively recruits such immigrants to boost it's otherwise shrinking population.

I wonder how a similar Palestinian policy would be regarded by Israel or it's apologists?

That is a stated Palestinian policy (the 'right' of 'return'). How about a right of return for the 1,000,000 Jews evicted from Arab countries?? Ha, ha.

[iceman]

Fucking Cod Stealing Icelandic Bastards.

The newfies and cape bretoners will hand their asses to them, if they could only put down the bottles of screetch and rum. This battle will probably amount to a few empty bottles chucked between the fishing boats.

I dunno, I saw the episide of "No Reservations" (Anthony Bourdain's show) where he went to Iceland and that food looked fucking toxic as hell. Bourdain will eat anything and he was gagging. A single serving of the jellied sheep testicles and the shark head buried for six months before serving could probably depopulate all of Newfoundland within hours.

[Dexter Rutecki]

That was my point about immigration.

And yes, Israel still has defacto control over the PA, they control m,ost access and egress, and economically dominate Palestine (Israeli economic policies re Palestinian are very short sighted and cynical - cut the palestinians at the kneecaps so there's 80% unemployment and you are surprised when terror is on the increase?)

Israel has no control over the PA. If unemployment and the violent policies of the PA government are an excuse for terrorism you're sure setting the bar pretty low.

[cj001f]

Israel has no control over the PA. If unemployment and the violent policies of the PA government are an excuse for terrorism you're sure setting the bar pretty low.

Keep pointing the finger dex - the more you point the sooner a solution will come, really.

No control is farcical - the Palestinian Authority is not a sovereign nation - unless sovereign nations don't have control over their own borders? In their attacks and actions the past 5 years Israel has shown a systematic desire to dismantle the Palestinian economy - cutting off guest workers - now destroying infrastructure. Show me a nation with high unemployment that doesn't have a problem with crime, violence and extremism Dexter. I double dare you.

[MassLiberal]

Fixed it for you. But the old Zionism is Racism thing is a tired old saw employed by anti-Israel types, and holds no water. Not that I support Biblical claims to land, but you gotta deal with the 'facts on the ground'.



That is a stated Palestinian policy (the 'right' of 'return'). How about a right of return for the 1,000,000 Jews evicted from Arab countries?? Ha, ha.

Dex, I generally agree with you on most everything, so I'm just going to say to be careful with your logic here. You're getting awfully close to what the Current US administration says regarding justice in Guantanamo vs. the rest of the Arab world. I don't think that using repressive regimes as a standard bearer is where we want to go here......

[tex1230]

AP just reported rockets hitting Haifa...that ought to calm things down...

Nuke the whole fucking region...

[Jim S]

UPDATE: ROCKETS HIT HAIFA

Now this ugliness will escalate exponentially.

[The Reverend Floater]

A single serving of the jellied sheep testicles and the shark head buried for six months before serving could probably depopulate all of Newfoundland within hours.

That's just fucked up.

[shamrockpow]

That was my point about immigration.

And yes, Israel still has defacto control over the PA, they control m,ost access and egress, and economically dominate Palestine (Israeli economic policies re Palestinian are very short sighted and cynical - cut the palestinians at the kneecaps so there's 80% unemployment and you are surprised when terror is on the increase?)

And this is where personal opinion does play a big role in our perspectives. From 1993-2000 Israel allowed much more free movement for Palestinians in the West Bank and their economy grew fairly quickly. Since 2001 you're right that Israel's policies have not been great for the Palestinian economy, but they arguably have been pretty shitty for Israel as well (they also have a growing have/have not divide).

Before the Arafat-Clinton-Barak failure to get things done, Israel certainly did not try to "put a boot" on the Palestinian throat. Since the right wing came back to power, they have focused on security at the expense of economic development and long-term security. But w/o the renewed violence of winter/spring 2001, I just don't think the right-wing could have gotten power or put in place so many harmful policies. Both sides make mistakes and that's why the situation has gotten to this point.

[Dexter Rutecki]

(Dex - didn't you & I have this discussion in a Bar on the UWS? )

As I recall, the day had been too hot, the beer was too cold, and the conversation with the bartender too weird to discuss anything remotely like that.

whoa, rockets into Haifa, that's not smart. Syria and Lebanon better start reigning in their proxies or it's going to be a loud night in Damascus and Beirut.