Is it World War III

[DBdude]

Hezbollah is not the Lebanese government, so why does Israel attack civilian Lebenon now?

Actually Hezbollah is part of the Lebenese government.

There are two Hezbollah, the political faction, based in Lebanon and Palestinian controlled Isreal that are elected officials or part of the government or groups that act like NGOs and provide services and the terrorist Hezbollah that follow shiek what ever in Syria. How much over lap/ coordination between the two groups? Israel seems to think a lot.

[natty dread]

There is only one Hezbollah representative in Lebanese government.

Did you read the previous page?
"After the 2005 elections, Hezbollah held 23 seats (up from eight previously) in the 128-member Lebanese Parliament. It also participated for the first time in the Lebanese government that was formed in July 2005. Hezbollah has two ministers in the government, and a third is Hezbollah-endorsed."

[skideeppow]

The Israelis blaming the current Lebanese government for the acts Hezbollah would be like the US blaming Germany for 9/11.

YOU might want to do a little more research. Hezbullah operates in Lebanon like a country within a country. They have free reign. The Lebanese GOvernment turns a blind eye to this. If you went to the Good Fence, just north of metulla you can occasionally see the green flag of Hexbullah flying high right next to the UNIFIL (IN Interim FOrce In Lebanon) outpost.
So, when Israel unilaterally pulled out in 99, the iIsraelis thought there would be no reason for Hezbullah to keep on operating. Ehud Barak miscalculated and Katushas still come from south lebanon.
THe Lebanese GOvt is completely responsible for what happens in the south of their country.

[Tuckerman]

Spdfrk, what you doing there? Keep us updated if possible. Stay safe. Why is Israel targeting soft targets like water treatment plants and electrical grids over the kidnapping of a few soldiers who wandered into Lebanese territory? Isn't their reaction majorly disproportionate in violence (which is not at all surprising given history)? I never understood why we stand behind such imbeciles with all our $ aid. All they do is make problems for us in the eyes of the Muslim world.

I agree we should stop giving money to Israel it pisses people off. But on the first part fuck that you kidnapp a few US soldiers why would'ent you stop at nothing to get them back? Also they are warned from The Sydney Morning Herald.

"We have we passed on a warning to Lebanon to evacuate all civilians from the [southern] neighbourhood of Beirut, which is a Hezbollah stronghold and where Nasrallah lives, and where the organisation's headquarters and weapons stockpiles are," the Ma'ariv NRG news website quoted a senior army official as saying.

[CherryMoon]

Did you read the previous page?
"After the 2005 elections, Hezbollah held 23 seats (up from eight previously) in the 128-member Lebanese Parliament. It also participated for the first time in the Lebanese government that was formed in July 2005. Hezbollah has two ministers in the government, and a third is Hezbollah-endorsed."

Yeah, my error. Was referring to cabinet/ministers. Read an article that stated they were only responsible for Ministry of Energy with one minister, but it turns out there are two like you said (can't find info on 3rd but will take your word).

[TJ.Brk]

Well the Israeli AF is now attacking a Lebanese Army base at the Syrian border. More strikes hitting hard right now.

[Rontele]

Spdfrk, what you doing there? Keep us updated if possible. Stay safe. Why is Israel targeting soft targets like water treatment plants and electrical grids over the kidnapping of a few soldiers who wandered into Lebanese territory? Isn't their reaction majorly disproportionate in violence (which is not at all surprising given history)? I never understood why we stand behind such imbeciles with all our $ aid. All they do is make problems for us in the eyes of the Muslim world.

This is clearly the most ignorant post of the day. We stand behind Israel because they are the ONLY real democracy in the Middle East. I tried very hard to avoid this thread as being Jewish I am obviously biased towards the Israeli point of view. They target soft targets because they want to send a message. Have you ever heard of symbolism? By bombing airports, water treatment plants, and electrical grids, they say to the enemy "look at what we can do to you and you cannot stop us." It sends a very powerful message. But I do understand if you are not versed in the nuances of Realpolitik. Understand, however, that Israel for its entire history has been a democracy and thus there is a natural allegiance between the United States and Israel.

But CherryMoon in your world, you seem to want to placate to the Muslims. Do you truly believe that if we were cease supporting Israel that the Bin Laden and all other Islamo-facists would stop trying to destroy us? If so, you need to take a real hard look at the history of the Middle East, think some more then post.

[Rontele]

Well the Israeli AF is now attacking a Lebanese Army base at the Syrian border. More strikes hitting hard right now.

They want to send as stern a message to Syria without actually bombing Syria. This is a quickly escalating regional conflict. Surprisingly, no word yet from the Iranians.

And to those that think we shouldn't give Israel money, I would also take a hard look at where most of the new technology in the world is coming from...Israel. It has easily the most vibrant economy in the middle east, is the only real democracy, and its existance is constantly threatened by its neighbors who are significantly more populous. It is a natural alliance.

And to those that think that our support of Israel is what causes the Muslim world to hate us, take a history lesson. Look back to the United States' never ending support of the Saudi regime, one of the most brutal in the world or their support of the Shah in Iran, or the support of the many Egyptian leaders--all who have worked to repress their OWN people. Those are the causes of much of the anti-American sentiment. And while I will concede that support for Israel does not necessarily help our cause per se, it is foolish to abandon a long-standing ally in the hopes that we can sway public opinion in that region

[Tuckerman]

Did I miss something or did the Palestinians just have elections thus voting in a bunch of morons. I guess it's ONLY a real democracy if the people you like win. I'm not saying stop supporting Israel I'm saying stop giving them my money, we can give moral support.

BTW this post was brought to by powder.com

[Rontele]

Did I miss something or did the Palestinians just have elections thus voting in a bunch of morons. I guess it's ONLY a real democracy if the people you like win. I'm not saying stop supporting Israel I'm saying stop giving them my money, we can give moral support.

BTW this post was brought to by powder.com

Actually it is says on my computer that your post was brought to us by standstrongagain.com...

And while the Palestianians did vote in an election to bring in Hamas (why, I would never know), lets not call them a true democracy quite yet. There are still many remanants of the dictatorial past (Abbas, who was not popularly elected). Israel has a sixty year history of democracy, Palestine a single year of history.

And while I cannot hide my pro-Israeli stance, the biggest loser for the past sixty years has been the Palestianian people. They have been subjected to not only Israeli aggression but manipulative demagouges intent on perserving their own power rather than helping their people. Lets hope that at the end of the day the Palestinian people have a country to call their own.

[MassLiberal]

Why did hamas win? Hmm, let's see, Abbas had nothing to show for success, and the palestinians voted for the opposition. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians are to blame for the rise of Hamas

[skideeppow]

Hamas becomes obsolete if peace breaks out. So does Hezbollah (no, they aren't the same - one is Palestinian, the other Lebanese) especially with the new Lebanese Government who is much less under the Syrian control than in the past.

FYI, It is a little more complex than that. Hamas is sunni based but still being used by Iran (a shiate muslim country) to destabize the region, as well as Syria, a sunni dominated country.
Hezbullah, is a shiate muslim faction which has direct ties to shiate Iran.
As you see in Iraq, Shiates and SUnni's hate each other almost as much as they hate the Jews.

[The Reverend Floater]

In regard to Palestine and their democratic process, you guys are forgetting one minor detail...the vast majority of their population is under 30 years old.

[MassLiberal]

are you talking about the Shiites?

Shiate is what I do after I drink to much coffee.

[Rontele]

are you talking about the Shiites?

Shiate is what I do after I drink to much coffee.

hey buddy there is a whole thread about shitting int he padded room, keep it there

[skideeppow]

EDIT: As far as the govt here goes, it looks like the Sunni/Druze/Maronite Christian majority may be forced to the Israeli side of things (or on their own) as the Syrians aren't well liked (that's putting it nicely - most people here would give their left nut to slit Assad's throat) by many except Hizb'allah - this place will go absolutely apeshit if the ASSyrians move back in. Could end up with all of them ganging up on the shiites...seeing as the guys that did the kidnapping misread the memo asking for "IDF Jews" and nabbed 2 IDF Druze instead (Walid Jumblatt can't be happy bout that, and could pull the rest of the majority in with him). Still waiting to see if Michel Aoun pulls away from the "friendship agreement" with the shiites...

Did they really kidnapp Druze? That is a major fuck up.

[MassLiberal]

I know, but sometimes that shit just overflows...


nyuk nyuk nyuk.

Good god that was horrible.

[DBdude]

You can say tit for tat for the past 60 years in issues regarding Israel and her neighbors. In my opinion, Israel wants peace more than her neighbors. Each side has made mistakes, showed bad faith and hate. It's just a mess.

[cj001f]

This is clearly the most ignorant post of the day. We stand behind Israel because they are the ONLY real democracy in the Middle East.

That's a funny post.

[Tippster]

This is clearly the most ignorant post of the day. We stand behind Israel because they are the ONLY real democracy in the Middle East...

No, they're not. They don't even claim to be, as they are a JEWISH state, and thus limit non-jews in their government to a few seats. In a true Democracy the Arab Israelis would have roughly 40% of the seats in the Knesset. They would probably also have the single largest political party (since the Jews are so fractured between Likud, Labor, and the real kooks) that the Arabs would either 1) run the country since it's a parliamentary government with an appointed leader, not an elected one - or 2) force the jews into a coalition so fractuous that nothing would get done.

Israel operates under a de-facto Apartheid system. Zionists globally don't like the comparison, but it is what it is.

[Rontele]

No, they're not. They don't even claim to be, as they are a JEWISH state, and thus limit non-jews in their government to a few seats. In a true Democracy the Arab Israelis would have roughly 40% of the seats in the Knesset. They would probably also have the single largest political party (since the Jews are so fractured between Likud, Labor, and the real kooks) that the Arabs would either 1) run the country since it's a parliamentary government with an appointed leader, not an elected one - or 2) force the jews into a coalition so fractuaous that nothing would get done.

Israel operates under a de-facto Apartheid system. Zionists globally don't like the comparison, but it is what it is.

Fair enough. But then you get yourself into a logical trap. The whole purpose of Israel was to create a Jewish state. The UN agreed to this in 1949as a means to protect a large population of the Jewish people in lieu of a little thing called the Holocaust. Thus, if the Arab Israelis were allowed to vote it would dillute the very purposes of having a Jewish state (the same reasons why the Israelis would never agree to a right of return to Palestianians in the West Bank or Gaza). Perhaps my characterization of Israel as a TRUE democracy is a little off, but compared to the other countries in the region, they actually have representation and elections--not demagouges or tyrants as leaders.

CNN is also reporting that Hezbollah is trying to transfer the captured soldiers to the Iranians...

[Tippster]

So it's OK to have a Jewish state in the Middle East but not a White state in Africa? Huh.

[MassLiberal]

[QUOTE=Rontele]Fair enough. But then you get yourself into a logical trap. The whole purpose of Israel was to create a Jewish state. The UN agreed to this in 1949as a means to protect a large population of the Jewish people in lieu of a little thing called the Holocaust. Thus, if the Arab Israelis were allowed to vote it would dillute the very purposes of having a Jewish state (the same reasons why the Israelis would never agree to a right of return to Palestianians in the West Bank or Gaza)./QUOTE]

And this is why Israel will live in a perpetual state of war.

[schindlerpiste]

It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's the end of the world as we know it....

[Rontele]

So it's OK to have a Jewish state in the Middle East but not a White state in Africa? Huh.

The last time I checked, the Israelis had a 5000 year claim to the Holy Land. That the Old Testament predates both Islam and Christianity. That seems to be a pretty valid claim. Whites in Africa were there because of imperialism. Plus your attempt at reasoning by analogy is faulty. Comparing apartheid South Africa to Israel superficially could make some sense as it seems a powerful group aiming to repress a smaller, weaker majority, but you continue to ignore history. It has been Israel's neighbors which have throughout history refused to recognize their existance--not the other way around.

And MassLiberal, I think that Israel would be content to stop waging war when its neighbors recognize its right to exist.