Is it World War III

**iceman** · 07-13-2006, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by cj001f

Acting that 100% effectiveness - which is what is required by the US and Israel - is possible, even from a perfectly independant policing force, is a cynical farce.

And what is opening your borders to people who actively want to kill you? Sound policy?

Roll your eyes a few more times when you answer.

**cj001f** · 07-13-2006, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by iceman

Roll your eyes a few more times when you answer.

The thread needed more circles, the arguments here just weren't enough. Aside from "the Palestinians need to change" do you have anything fucking useful for a solution? No, because assigning blame is more important than effecting a solution. After all - "it's their fault". Right or wrong that's been going on for decades and shit hasn't changed. So change what you (Israel) can or shut the fuck up about it and go wait for Godot. Or bitch about the fucking Red Sox.

**Plakespear** · 07-13-2006, 03:03 PM

Just posting that I'm still here and the world didn't end this morning.

**DBdude** · 07-13-2006, 03:05 PM

Israel is determined that the non Jewish population with voting rights will not exceed the Jewish citizenry - right of return is a dead issue. If Palestinians want to continue to live third world lives then the status quo is great.

Israel has made many mistakes and commited major human rights violations but there is large segment of the Israeli population that wants peace. There just doesn't seem to be that impetus on the Palestinian side. At some point the Palestinians are going to have realized they were stupid to abandon their land and just move on and try to make a better life going forward by making peace. It will never happen, or at least not in my lifetime.

**iceman** · 07-13-2006, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by cj001f

The thread needed more circles, the arguments here just weren't enough. Aside from "the Palestinians need to change" do you have anything fucking useful for a solution? No, because assigning blame is more important than effecting a solution. After all - "it's their fault". Right or wrong that's been going on for decades and shit hasn't changed. So change what you (Israel) can or shut the fuck up about it and go wait for Godot. Or bitch about the fucking Red Sox.

Hey I'm Irish, we have our own battles, I'm not in this fight and I haven't advocated anything at all. The only thing I've said is what is going on. And you're pretty fucking hostile, what's up with that? And why would I bitch about the Sox when they're in first place?

**mookie blaylock** · 07-13-2006, 03:08 PM

those fuckers all want to kill eachother. Solution? puuulease theres billions to be made off war donthcyaknow

**Superstar Punani** · 07-13-2006, 03:11 PM

Yesterday it would have cost me $45.15 to fill up the tank.
Today it cost me $47.40

That really pisses me off.

**cj001f** · 07-13-2006, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by iceman

why would I bitch about the Sox when they're in first place?

I was going to reply when has that ever made a difference but then I realized how often it would have made a difference.

**CherryMoon** · 07-13-2006, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by iceman

What they want is to make life miserable enough for the populace at large that they will boot the terrorists out themselves. Seems fairly sensible to me, at least better than going in and killing everyone.

What a solid plan. People that actually think this breaks the will of this type opponent are in space.

How many moderate good citizen Palestinians or Lebanese today are saying to themselves: "Israel just killed 50+ citizens, took away my electricity, fuel and water treatment facilities as well as bridges and the international airport because two IDF soldiers were kidnapped... Not OK." The huge amount of disproportionate force would make otherwise good citizens terribly upset and raged, and likely willing to take up arms or support a counter-offense against Israel. I'd be first in line to take a shot back after losing loved ones or staples of the community/infrastrucutre. Just more arm chair quarterbacks thinking they know what it's like to be a desperate "boar in a corner."

What good did Shock and Awe do? Certainly didn't scare away the massive insurgency, now did it? These people are not afraid to die like us padded Westerners. It's amazing people at this point still have the notion violence scares these cultures into civility and peace. Never does and never will.

**nealric** · 07-13-2006, 04:41 PM

just read that they attacked the airport again.

Brown stuff is in the process of hitting the fan.

**3eyedsmiley** · 07-13-2006, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by nealric

Brown stuff is in the process of hitting the fan.

A bug just ran into my fan. Nice call there.

**Dexter Rutecki** · 07-13-2006, 05:45 PM

Both Israel and Palestine have had extremists unsupported by the majority of the population kill and maim the opposition. Acting that 100% effectiveness - which is what is required by the US and Israel - is possible, even from a perfectly independant policing force, is a cynical farce.

oh please, you're really into fantasyland at this point. To equate the extraordinarily rare terrorist acts committed by israelis (and aside from the assassination of Rabin I can think of only one other--the Goldstein massacre) with the government sanctioned acts of Hamas is absurd. i mean, you're really out there at this point, exposing an all too obvious bias.
Look at what palestinian leaders say following terrorist incidents, and then compare that to Israeli reaction to even unintentional civilian deaths. The palestinian leadership is wholly committed to terrorism and destroying Israel, as their charter says. They engineer mass killing of civilians, while Israel tries to avoid it, even at risk to its own soldiers. The palestinian side is entirely, entirely different from the Israeli government. To try to claim otherwise puts you in the camp of blind, anti-Zionist ideologues.

**Dexter Rutecki** · 07-13-2006, 05:47 PM

Secular alternatives to Hamas/terrorist brokered services and employment of even the menial kind to keep people productively engaged would be a start. Funny having to argue the benefits of economic growth to you people.

Fucking brilliant, how could we have missed that? And it's so realistic, too--you bitch about others' solutions, and your solution amounts to, 'let's make things better.' When you don't have anything useful to say, it's best to...

**Archie** · 07-13-2006, 05:58 PM

Peres was on TV today. He advocated working with the new Lebanese government to solve the Hezbollah problem. I wish more in Israel shared this view

**Dexter Rutecki** · 07-13-2006, 06:01 PM

There are plenty in Israel who share his view, but there's no way in hell that Peres would be sitting by if he were PM in the same situation--he's helped oversee large military action in the past, too.

**TomK** · 07-13-2006, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Tippster

Not really, Ice. I just hear the other side of the story every day working with Arabs and Arab Americans, and am rather convinced that it takes two to fight. ...

While it takes two to fight, it only takes one to commit assault.
Self defense is not the same as fighting for gain. Even disproportionate reponses.
Historically, I see lots of cases of various Arab groups/countries assaulting Israel, but none that I know of off-hand where Israel was the instigator.

Too much zero-sum thinking in one of those cultures IMO.

**splat** · 07-13-2006, 06:43 PM

So, a question. Simply a question...

Is the US setting in motion the biggest Holy War of all time, orchestrating reactionary violence from Islamics that would allow UN approval of a massive wave of war across Syria, Palestine, Iran, Lebanon, and Iraq?

**Archie** · 07-13-2006, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

There are plenty in Israel who share his view, but there's no way in hell that Peres would be sitting by if he were PM in the same situation--he's helped oversee large military action in the past, too.

I got the impression that he felt retalition was absolutely necessary, but that bombing civilian bridges thus hindering the Lebanese army's ability "go after Hezbollah and find kipnappers" wasn't the smartest thing to do.

Israel needs allies in the middle east, not more enemies.
Israel should defend itself, but attacking those who did not attack Israel as means to intice or force them into attacking those who did attacked Israel makes one think there are other motivations.

**mushmouth** · 07-13-2006, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by splat

So, a question. Simply a question...

Is the US setting in motion the biggest Holy War of all time, orchestrating reactionary violence from Islamics that would allow UN approval of a massive wave of war across Syria, Palestine, Iran, Lebanon, and Iraq?

I had the silly thought when Hamas was elected that the US had covertly rigged the election with the intent that the resulting situation would escalate to this level and use it as an opportunity to assist in the arming of Israel for a near future attack on Iran. but that's just silly.

**splat** · 07-13-2006, 07:30 PM

Intersting how Iran's involvement is noted, isn't it?
I usually consider such not-so-innocuous mentions the preparatory spin setup between the lines...

**PNWbrit** · 07-13-2006, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

puts you in the camp of blind, anti-Zionist ideologues.

Rather than the camp of deaf, blind and bigoted pro-zionist ideologues?

**splat** · 07-13-2006, 07:51 PM

(CNN) -- The group called Hezbollah is on the U.S. State Department's list of terrorist organizations, but also participates in the Lebanese government. A few facts on the organization:

# Hezbollah is a Shiite militant group in Lebanon, regarded by the U.S. and Israel as a terrorist organization.

# It opposes Israel and the West, and supports a fundamentalist Muslim government.

# It is dedicated to eliminating Israel and has formally advocated ultimate establishment of Islamic rule in Lebanon, according to the U.S. State Department.

# It garners popular support among Lebanese by setting up schools, hospitals and other social services.

# It has become a social/political movement, holding 14 seats in the 128-member Lebanese parliament, according to the parliament's Web site.

# The word "hezbollah" means "party of God" in Arabic.

# Sheik Hassan Nasrallah is the head of Hezbollah.

# Hezbollah fighters operate with almost total autonomy in southern Lebanon, and the government has no control over their actions, according to The Associated Press. But Lebanon has long resisted international pressure to disarm the group.

# Hezbollah has often launched shells and fired rockets into northern Israel and into the disputed Shebaa Farms area.

# Islamic Resistance is the name of Hezbollah's military wing.

# Hezbollah is known or suspected to have been involved in numerous terror attacks against the U.S., Israel or other Western targets, including the 1983 suicide truck bombings in Beirut that killed 241 U.S. Marines at the Marine barracks and 58 at the French military barracks.

# The United States and Israel say that Hezbollah is given financial and political assistance, as well as weapons and training, from Iran and Syria. Syria says it supports Hezbollah, but denies supplying it with weapons.

# Hezbollah was founded in 1982 in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

# It absorbed most of the 1980s umbrella coalition of terrorist groups known as Islamic Jihad, according to Jane's Terrorism and Insurgency Center.

# In 2004, Hezbollah exchanged prisoners with Israel in a deal that took three years to negotiate. Israel released more than 400 prisoners and returned 59 bodies of Lebanese fighters. Hezbollah released a kidnapped Israeli businessman and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers.

# The 1996 suicide bombing of the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, in which 19 are killed, was attributed to Hezbollah.

# Hezbollah was blamed for the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center in Argentina, in which 85 were killed.

# The State Department estimates Hezbollah has "several thousand supporters and a few hundred terrorist operatives."

**jwelch** · 07-13-2006, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by TomK

While it takes two to fight, it only takes one to commit assault.
Self defense is not the same as fighting for gain. Even disproportionate reponses.
Historically, I see lots of cases of various Arab groups/countries assaulting Israel, but none that I know of off-hand where Israel was the instigator.

Too much zero-sum thinking in one of those cultures IMO.

Well, the country that already controls the "Holy Land" in question wouldn't have nearly as much reason to instigate anything, would they?

**Dexter Rutecki** · 07-13-2006, 08:37 PM

Rather than the camp of deaf, blind and bigoted pro-zionist ideologues?

I certainly detect more than a note of bigotry in that, and several other anti-israel posts in here (some of which contain blatant lies). As per usual, the overwhelming parade of Arab anti-Zionism and anti-semitism (anti-Zionism fundamentally being anti-semitism, as Martin Luther King noted) bears no comment, let alone the sort of condemnation exclusively reserved for Israel when it dares to defend itself. But hey, I guess that's just how it is--the more things change, after all (especially in Europe).