Group Ride Incident and resulting question:

**Cornholio** · 06-29-2006, 01:09 PM

Some Background
The shop team I ride for has a group ride on Wednesdays. It's pretty well organized without being militant-- the ride is broken up in to ability groups with one of the top team riders going as a ride leader for each group every week. The groups have distance and pace guidelines and it usually works out pretty well.

Often, though, the "B" group gets a little big. It's full of riders who aren't strong enough to go with the "A" group, which tends to be a collection of the local 1,2,3 roadies and gets downright speedy. Because of the size (and the general reduction in paceline experience) there have been some crashes in the B group lately. This has inspired some additional emphasis on safety.

We've always had a written "no helmet, no ride" policy, but sometimes have looked the other way if a guy joins up for a week and doesn't have a lid.

The Incident
So, this increased emphasis on safety, combined with wet roads last night, resulted in a little confrontation.

We pulled in to the park where the ride really starts, and there's a guy there that no one knows, but he heard about the ride and is ready to join up with the B group. He has no helmet. This week, the shop owner is leading the group, and says to the guy, "Hey, look, we'd love to have you ride with us, and you're welcome anytime. But, we do have a rule that you have to wear a helmet to ride with our group." It was very diplomatic.

The guy responds, straight away, with a "Fuck that! These are public roads."

Shop Owner Guy and No Helmet Guy go back and forth a little bit: "Yes, these are public roads, but to ride with our organized ride you have to have a helmet." "You can't stop me from riding with you" "Well, we really don't *want* you to ride with us." "Fuck you, because I'm going" "Go ahead, then, Mr. Public Road" "I'm going with you" "No, you're not."

Shop Owner Guy finally just says, "Fine, let's go." The ride takes off, and through tacit agreement forms a nice single file line at 8 mph. No Helmet Guy gets pissed and takes off, but soft pedals so the group catches him eventually. He gets in the (now full speed) paceline, and after a pull he's drifting back and spits in Shop Owner Guy's face. I am not making this up.

Shop Owner Guy and Former NHL Hockey Player Guy pull out of line and drift back with him, eventually just slowing down until the group gets a good gap. The three of them stop, and No Helmet Guy spits in Shop Owner Guy's face, again. Shop Owner Guy and Hockey Guy, in an amazing display of restraint, just stand there. They just stand there until the guy, fuming and yelling and screaming, takes off back down the park.

The questions
Aside from being comedic and utterly childish, what think the maggots about the whole thing? Does Shop Owner Guy have some unwritten right to restict who joins the group ride? If not, is there any other good way to do it? What would inspire someone to want to ride with the group after being told he wasn't wanted? Who says "Fuck that!" as the first words of introduction to a guy he's never met? Was this post way too fucking long?!

**lemon boy** · 06-29-2006, 01:14 PM

roadies are assholes is the answer

new guy is a dick (duh)
owner guy has every right to tell people no, he likely has some sort of liability (not a lawyer) for the rides as well
he handled himself appropriately
yes, concise storytelling is the hallmark of genius...or paris hilton.

**Rontele** · 06-29-2006, 01:15 PM

If this is true than face spitter needs some SERIOUS psychiatric help. What adult spits in the face of ANOTHER adult? Didn't we learn that that type of behavior was childish in THIRD GRADE?

That being said, kudos to the shop owner for showing such restraint. I would have cold cocked the guy and spit in his face. I think that if you are going to have a group ride, where accidents are possibly to likely, and given the wet nature of the roads, the organizer of the ride has the right to restrict the ride to those who comply with the safety protocols. But that would have to be an implicit restriction. As your story shows, you really cannot prevent anyone from joining the group, but I don't think that suggesting that the guy cannot ride with you guys because he was not wearing the proper safety equipment was out of bounds.

Amazing story. I wonder if he will show up again?

**Cornholio** · 06-29-2006, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by lemon boy

roadies are assholes is the answer

new guy is a dick (duh).

These conclusions I had got to all by myself.

As this story was being related to me, I thought, "This would have never happened on mountain bikes." Oh well.

BLOOD SWEAT STEEL · 06-29-2006, 01:22 PM

- Yes, he has the right to monitor who is a part of organized group rides.

- He should have caved the guy's skull in for him. I admire his restraint for turning the other cheek once, but after the second time the guy spit on him.............

**lemon boy** · 06-29-2006, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Cornholio

As this story was being related to me, I thought, "This would have never happened on mountain bikes." Oh well.

not exactly happened the same way but the shuttle DH'ers are every bit as lame as the lamest of roadies

**yentna** · 06-29-2006, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Cornholio

..."This would have never happened on mountain bikes." Oh well.

I wouldn't guarantee that, having run across some uber assholes mtn biking as well. Granted, not TOO may, but enough. And not to stereotype, but they seemed the XC lycra or ex-roadie type, but still, were mountain biking. Not to the point of spitting in adult faces, but still some pretty juvenile actions.

Anyway, kudos to the leader for the restraint, I also would have lost control at that point.

**crashnburn'd** · 06-29-2006, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by BLOOD SWEAT STEEL

- He should have caved the guy's skull in for him. I admire his restraint for turning the other cheek once, but after the second time the guy spit on him.............

What you're saying is pretty dumb because you never know what a crazy person's intent is. He was probably trying to provoke them into something. Just because a person is a moron doesn't mean they don't think. The shop owner throws a punch, pushes, anything and he could have a whole lot of problems on his hands.

I think he handled it right and as well as anyone could. Riding a bike without a helmet is stupid, whether it's a mountain bike or road bike.

**Yeti** · 06-29-2006, 01:34 PM

Super impressed that the shop owner and NHL player didn't whack him. (I am partial to any story that involves NHL players, even if they don't accept an invitation to duel. Besides, we all know "third man in" is a dishonorable penalty.)

Does Shop Owner Guy have some unwritten right to restict who joins the group ride? If not, is there any other good way to do it?
Tough question. This sort of thing also arises in the context of backcountry skiing -- e.g. gaper without avalanche savvy and/or equipment decides to "tag along" with your crew. What about the guy who decides to hike just in front of your family, smoking butts and playing music on a boombox the whole time? (Only in California, right? Zing.)

Legally, the jerk is probably right. They are public roads, and we're all supposed to share them. If he wants to share them by riding in front of, in, or behind your group, he has that legal right. What he probably doesn't have the right to do is interfere with your enjoyment of the public way, but that isn't the kind of thing the legal system is set up to enforce (whereas it is set up to enforce his rights when you sock him).

Philosophically, the group leader should have the right to determine the group for whom he's responsible, but that doesn't really mean much.

What would inspire someone to want to ride with the group after being told he wasn't wanted? Who says "Fuck that!" as the first words of introduction to a guy he's never met? Was this post way too fucking long?!
A dick. A dick. No.

An interesting anecdote that reflects how those of us who obey moral/social rules can get bullied -- a useful contrast to the stories of those of us who seek retribution (road rage) for perceived infractions of these same rules.

Bottom line: you can say that he can't ride with you, but I don't think you can force him to keep away, short of wimpy legal action over the spitting "assaults". You're real men -- you can take it, eh?

BLOOD SWEAT STEEL · 06-29-2006, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by crashnburn'd

What you're saying is pretty dumb because you never know what a crazy person's intent is. He was probably trying to provoke them into something. Just because a person is a moron doesn't mean they don't think. The shop owner throws a punch, pushes, anything and he could have a whole lot of problems on his hands.

I think he handled it right and as well as anyone could. Riding a bike without a helmet is stupid, whether it's a mountain bike or road bike.

Well, I guess I'm just dumb then.

Unfortunately, crazy person doesn't know what BSS' capabilities are, either.

He definitely did handle it as well as could possibly be expected, and I gave him praise for that.

**Cornholio** · 06-29-2006, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by crashnburn'd

shop owner throws a punch, pushes, anything and he could have a whole lot of problems on his hands.

I think so too. This was the kind of guy who would get in to a fight just to sue about it after.

**Viva** · 06-29-2006, 01:51 PM

Even without the spittle, what the dickhead's doing is harassment. Call the police and when they arrive, they will likely take personal info. for a report. Now you will know who this person is. If the dufus continues to show up and be confrontational, perhaps Shopowner can get a restraining order.

This seems feasible to me. A PITA, for sure, but you're going through the proper legal channels to protect your (the B group's) rights.

**pechelman** · 06-29-2006, 01:54 PM

wow thats ridiculous.

Seems to me its pretty easy to keep him from riding with you.
Let the air out of both of his tires then ride away.

**Cornholio** · 06-29-2006, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by pechelman

wow thats ridiculous.

Seems to me its pretty easy to keep him from riding with you.
Let the air out of both of his tires then ride away.

That's on the list. If someone lets the air out of his back tire, he has to get off his bike to deal with it. Then we just ride away anyway.

**Crinkle** · 06-29-2006, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Cornholio

I think so too. This was the kind of guy who would get in to a fight just to sue about it after.

my thought exactly. The owner is in the right. Most likely this is the kind of guy that doens't wear a helmet just to spite and spar with others about his "personal freedoms" waaaa. Big props to the 2 guys for not dropping that guy in his shoes. oh sorry, my pump accidentally got lodged in your spokes, what douche. Hopefully he got run down by a semi on his way home.

**Greydon Clark** · 06-29-2006, 02:07 PM

Sounds like this guy is off his meds.

**cj001f** · 06-29-2006, 02:13 PM

If you can just show up, no names, no registration and it's on public roads I'm not sure how he can exclude someone... because nobody's included and it's not really organized. Just express your displeasure and ignore him. If he persists for a bit, maybe talk to the cops. "no you aren't" "yes I am" fights and 8mph riding is childish on the part of both parties, and is only going to encourage NoHelmets behaviour Spitting, fisticuffs and other shits just middle school bullying and might get you sued by NoHelmet.

**Rontele** · 06-29-2006, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by cj001f

behaviour

I thought you were from Skiattle area, not Canada?

**kidwoo** · 06-29-2006, 02:46 PM

Two guys, one a hockey player against one moron.

Hold him down, strip him nekkid and make him ride home that way.

So much better than a beatdown

**mtnbikerskierchick** · 06-29-2006, 02:51 PM

Since it is a ride organized by a shop, I think the shop owner has the right to enforce simple rules... requiring a helmet is a good idea, and not a rule that is out of the question.

But, what it comes down to, is that No Helmet Guy just acted super immaturely. Had he said, "Look, I'll make sure to bring it next time, didn't know that was a rule".... none of it would have become an issue. Just plain psycho crazy to me.