Real Estate Crash thread

[XXX-er]

STRs also aren't legal everywhere and require a permit. They generally have to be in areas with hotel/commercial zoning, historic business districts, etc. So it is relatively easy to get a STR permit for your condo that's sandwiched in between the Sheraton and the Hilton...hard to get a permit for your house in a local neighborhood that's not by the beach.

I think second homes aren't as bad. First, there's way less incentive to buy them without rental income. Even with appreciation, most owners lose money after accounting for taxes, interest, maintenance, and opportunity costs. You buy them because you want a vacation home and have money to spare.

STRs invite people to gobble up housing stock to make a profit (beyond the profit you can make just being an ordinary landlord). This also leads to them buying up properties that wouldn't normally be appealing to a vacation home buyer (but might be appealing to a local resident).

True, second home owners aren't spending as much money in the local economy as 100 different guests visiting throughout the year...but they do still spend some money (and often let family/friends use the place which adds a bit of spend). They also tend to care more about the area and neighborhood. I'd much rather have a second home as a neighbor than an Airbnb. Airbnb has lots of negative externalities (noise, parties, lack of care, lack of upkeep)...rich second home owners make pretty decent neighbors.
.

Yeah I agree a second home is more like an LTR than an airbnb IMO

On paper running the AirBnB can make mo money BUT its not always occupied

then there is doing the turn around cleaning & laundry, my buddy told me it was 1.5 hrs each time

so you gotta be there to do it or pay someone if you are an absent STR LL

whereas with an LTR no cleaning no laundry no interrupted occupancy just get them to E-transfer the rent $$$

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/h...t-term-rentals

new rules ^^ for the STR in BC, basicly the provincial gov has declared war on AirBnB

" B.C.'s new legislation on short-term rentals will triple the fines for hosts who break the rules, and bring in a number of new requirements for operators in an attempt to return units to the long-term market.

Premier David Eby and Housing Minister Ravi Kahlon announced the Short-Term Accommodations Act(opens in a new tab) Monday.

"There is no question, in British Columbia short-term rentals have gotten out of control," Eby said at a news conference after the legislation was tabled, adding that the bill seeks to crack down on profit-driven operators.

"Thousands of homes that used to be available to buy or rent are now off the market and people who are looking for a decent place to live are struggling more than ever," he continued. "

[Garbowski]

STRs are the worst to me because they take away an existing unit of housing when we need more of it. Monthly rentals have a place I suppose, but lodging for travelers was segregated thousands of years ago for a reason.

[mcski]

STR/vacation rentals weren’t such an issue until people and companies started making it a rental business rather than using their own property for a few extra bucks. It’s totally jumped the shark now. It’s pretty difficult to get a license for str now in sf unless you can prove u live in the unit to be rented and even then there is a max number of days allowed. In SF, the issue is driven by draconian rent control rules that fuck over small property owners. No one wants to get stuck w a shitty long term renter living as their neighbor so we just take those units off the market completely

[anotherVTskibum]

https://billings.craigslist.org/reo/...758382997.html

would you like own some land that is there sometimes, and other times not so much. act fast. what an opportunity for someone w an extra arc sitting around.

Hey, that's twice the acreage as this Maine listing:

https://deiuliorealtygroup.com/idx/m...ethel_me_04217

I'm a little surprised to see it listed with an agent, honestly, especially with the listing describing possible uses based on the current owner's recollection of a conversation with a previous code enforcement officer.

[grabtindy]

Airbnb and STRs are just another growing demand factor, but fundamentally the housing crisis is a supply issue. Even if every Airbnb was outlawed tomorrow housing prices would remain elevated and continue to rise faster than inflation. Airbnb is just a convenient and visible scapegoat for the capital class.

[singlesline]

STRs are the worst to me because they take away an existing unit of housing when we need more of it. Monthly rentals have a place I suppose, but lodging for travelers was segregated thousands of years ago for a reason.

This is a large part of why I'm buying a house...I'm very pro-rental and I've been very happy with my current long term rental arrangement (other than wanting more space + a baby coming).

But I just haven't been able to find something that offers the right mix of location, size, and quality. I'm sure places exist (and have happy tenants), but everything I saw come up that fit the criteria was simply not being rented as a long term home. It was always stuff like
- You can have it for 9 months, but the owners want it for the summer.
- Places that used to be furnished monthly vacation rentals...with just no expectation of being able to stay there long term (if the vacation rental market picks back up, they are booting you)
- My favorite: interim deals...like here, move all your stuff into this unfurnished house for 3 months because someone from out of town bought it and isn't ready to move yet, but doesn't want to pay carrying costs.
- Shitholes that are gonna house 6 ski bums who don't care about the place and just need the cheapest possible rent.

[singlesline]

Airbnb and STRs are just another growing demand factor, but fundamentally the housing crisis is a supply issue. Even if every Airbnb was outlawed tomorrow housing prices would remain elevated and continue to rise faster than inflation. Airbnb is just a convenient and visible scapegoat for the capital class.

I agree with this.

I think Airbnb might induce a bit of its own demand, but even if you were to entirely eliminate it it would only be a band aid on the shortage of housing in desirable areas.

But the problems with having unlicensed hotels operating all over the place goes beyond just number of units they take up...it was fun when it was people renting extra rooms or ADUs, renting their own home while travelling, and the occasional standalone airbnb. When it got too big, and started taking over entire buildings or neighborhoods it didn't feel so fun anymore.

There's also an impact on willingness-to-pay and development. I've made this comment before, but a lot of new development around me is going to units that simply aren't appropriate for local families/local workers. If you design homes with a layout/features that are optimized for Airbnb and shitty for a permanent resident, that house now becomes more valuable to Airbnb investors/2nd homeowners and less valuable to residents...which means Airbnb investors win the bid.

That might not be a problem in large markets where both types of bidder are local...but I think it creates an issue in small towns where a lot of the investment demand is external. If Town A builds super vacation rental friendly units and Town B builds units designed to be lived in full time...more investors are going to show up in Town A and residents of town B are going to have an easier time.

Unfortunately I don't know how to quantify that or encode it into zoning/planning guidelines beyond "I know it when I see it". Big garage, private bedroom areas, lots of closets==resident friendly. Super open floor plan that maximizes occupants to sqft ratio, limited storage, no pantry space, etc.==designed for 3 couples or a big family to rent for a week of skiing.

[XXX-er]

The province of BC sez there are 28000 airbnb's acroos the province

shouldn't they outlaw airBnB just in case the people who are saying outlawing Air BnB's won't do anything for the housing shortage have a vested interest ?

[Dantheman]

But the problems with having unlicensed hotels operating all over the place goes beyond just number of units they take up...it was fun when it was people renting extra rooms or ADUs, renting their own home while travelling, and the occasional standalone airbnb. When it got too big, and started taking over entire buildings or neighborhoods it didn't feel so fun anymore.

The founder of Airbnb is on record saying it became something he never intended. I'll say this though, people like STRs because most hotels suck.

[jackstraw]

I'll say this though, people like STRs because most hotels suck.

Yeah, I'm guilty of that. I can't stand hotels. I've been exclusively Airbnb for a long time now, so I am part of the problem. Most have been adu's and on occasion a full house if my kids and friends show up.

[XXX-er]

I like really cheap motels where they won't mind if I wheel in my e-bike to charge the battery

[zion zig zag]

Yeah, I'm guilty of that. I can't stand hotels. I've been exclusively Airbnb for a long time now, so I am part of the problem. Most have been adu's and on occasion a full house if my kids and friends show up.

I’m going back the other way unless I’m staying with a group where having space to unwind is important. Check in’s are hit or miss, communication can be an issue, and the list of shit to do when you leave pushes me over the edge, especially when paying a cleaning fee. Fuck right off with me pulling off all of the sheets, duvet covers, starting a load and the dishwasher and taking out the garbage.

[XXX-er]

I’m going back the other way unless I’m staying with a group where having space to unwind is important. Check in’s are hit or miss, communication can be an issue, and the list of shit to do when you leave pushes me over the edge, especially when paying a cleaning fee. Fuck right off with me pulling off all of the sheets, duvet covers, starting a load and the dishwasher and taking out the garbage.

yeah I have never paid a cleaning fee or any of that stuff but it sounds like bulshit

someone has to come in anyhow to turn the place over do all the stuff

[Garbowski]

The province of BC sez there are 28000 airbnb's acroos the province

In 2023 there were 6,522 single detached homes and 39,125 multi-unit added in BC, which was a record high.

[yeahman]

I’m going back the other way unless I’m staying with a group where having space to unwind is important. Check in’s are hit or miss, communication can be an issue, and the list of shit to do when you leave pushes me over the edge, especially when paying a cleaning fee. Fuck right off with me pulling off all of the sheets, duvet covers, starting a load and the dishwasher and taking out the garbage.

Totally agree. I'll take the simplicity of a hotel any day over the scammy charges and hassles of an Airbnb.

[Name Redacted]

Are you guys a bunch of divas or what? Pulling bed sheets is too tough? I'd rather get a STR with a full kitchen, living room, yard, garage, private driveway, etc than a shitty overused 300sqft hotel room any day. To each his own I guess. Of course there are anecdotal examples on either side, but if you are smart about your choosing, you'll be fine. And the fees are all laid out for you before you click go on airbnb. I've shown up to a lot of hotels that had extra charges for pets, parking, etc that weren't listed on the booking. My buddy's catalytic converter got stolen from the hotel parking lot and he was parked right in front of the office.

It depends on the area obviously, but hotels can really suck too. YMMV

[yeahman]

Kitchen, living room, yard, garage? I got that shit at home. I'm on vacation and all I want is a place to sleep with the least amount of hassle and expense.

[fastfred]

...and the $1.2mm STR on my street that I mentioned here went under contract in less than a week. Stuff is very much still moving here.

I have a feeling that if a nationwide slowdown happens we'll follow the trend but likely lag by a bit from a timing standpoint.

Are CO mountain towns still showing signs of slowing? I remember someone mentioning that Summit had cooled down.

1.2 million is a steal compared to summit county prices

there is a stack a shack spec home being tossed together right on the highway in blue river co crappy little windows highway noise and they want 3 million for it
1 million plus for a sixteen foot wide 3-4 floor shit box condo in trailerthorne sorry I'm wrong I think they are called "brownstones"

in breckenridge people are buying 2-3 million dollar homes and scraping them to build 10-15 million dollar homes kind of mind blowing

so are things slowing? Yes. the average dump is now out way out of the price range of the average upper middle class person so we are next leveling stuff and pricing out larry and rachel from littleton

I have a client right now nothing makes sense when you think about it bizzaro in a way awesome person and someone you want to hang out with because of who they are and their attitude but jesus fucking christ the amount of funny money that some people have right now is mind bending and yes they need to park the money somewhere besides the stock market and other whatever other places so why not go for top level luxury living in the mountains if you plan on holding 10 years or more the return will be aok keep in mind the average homeowner ship in summit county is 6-10 years
prices in summit county co are still stupid as hell

[Name Redacted]

Kitchen, living room, yard, garage? I got that shit at home. I'm on vacation and all I want is a place to sleep with the least amount of hassle and expense.

Choose your own adventure. But if i am traveling with a dog, kids, family or basically anyone but just my wife, i need space and a kitchen minimum. Hotel rooms just don't cut it for that.

[Danno]

I'll say this though, people like STRs because most hotels suck.

Yeah, I'm guilty of that. I can't stand hotels. I've been exclusively Airbnb for a long time now, so I am part of the problem. Most have been adu's and on occasion a full house if my kids and friends show up.

Are you guys a bunch of divas or what? Pulling bed sheets is too tough? I'd rather get a STR with a full kitchen, living room, yard, garage, private driveway, etc than a shitty overused 300sqft hotel room any day. To each his own I guess. Of course there are anecdotal examples on either side, but if you are smart about your choosing, you'll be fine. And the fees are all laid out for you before you click go on airbnb. I've shown up to a lot of hotels that had extra charges for pets, parking, etc that weren't listed on the booking. My buddy's catalytic converter got stolen from the hotel parking lot and he was parked right in front of the office.

It depends on the area obviously, but hotels can really suck too. YMMV

I'm in this group. I'll stay in a hotel when it's warranted, but IME airbnbs are the better deal. The *should* be more expensive for what you get, but they are routinely cheaper IME.

[El Chupacabra]

I prefer hotels - predictable, staffed, issues get resolved, breakfast included, easy checkout.

Airbnb /VRBO - who knows what it'll be like in reality, I don't care about cooking meals while there, issues arise = good luck with management (there isn't another room they'll move you to), check in can be a PITA without a front desk.

I'm not basing my lodging on having a local experience - - I'm not traveling to XYZ place for the purpose of experiencing a local apartment. I'd just as soon have clean, quiet, predictable, generic Marriott Hilton Hyatt etc.

I can also often do hotels on points, which makes it much more affordable than Airbnb. Those are often priced higher than hotels if paying cash.

[goldenboy]

I've never even stayed in an AirBnB. If there is a comfy bed, a coffee maker, and a bathroom, I'm all set since 95+% of my waking time will be spent somewhere other than the hotel/airbnb.

[XXX-er]

Often in yurp your AirBnB is a room in what was a 3 bedroom LTR and you are sharing a bathroom but its cheaper for sure

[BmillsSkier]

Interesting hearing the differing preferences/perspectives on STR/AirBnB useage here.

Anytime I'm going somewhere with the fam for longer than a couple days I'm renting a AirBnB; a house or a multi-bed condo. I like having the bigger space, the amenities (private pool or hot tub for example) and the full kitchen. I've routinely had good experiences, and have even gone to renting directly through the management company of one location we hit up each year as opposed to through the STR platforms.

I still stay in plenty of hotels/resorts but the bang for the buck that a good AirBnB provides consistently beats out the hotel for most of our trips.

YMMV.

[singlesline]

Depends on the trip. We've had to go to bozeman a few times for my wife's work and we keep staying in the same airbnb'd ADU thing downtown. Nice to have the kitchen and space for me to work on the weekdays. She can walk to her stuff which means I can take the car and go on adventures. After staying there for 5-6 days I don't really mind stripping the bed or taking out the trash and it just seems like the decent thing to do to hit "Go" on the dishwasher...but I'd note that the place basically says to do those things "if you have time". There's no fee or anything if you don't and the host has been super good about allowing late checkouts well past what hotels will do, so I can't complain.

Ditto for anything like group trips. Way more fun to have a place place with multiple bedrooms and a shared living area--although usually that's in places that already had a long history of vacation rentals that predates AirBNB (e.g. ski areas, beach houses, etc.)

But I have shifted back to hotels for a lot of other travel. The flexibility, consistency, price, are better. Especially for travel in city areas. We had to do a bunch of travel to Denver for medical stuff last year and ended up always renting suite-style hotels with 1br + kitchenette. Biggest reason was that our schedule wasn't locked in and it is easy to extend (or shorten) a hotel stay, but it is also super nice to have 24 hour reception so you can just show up whenever you want vs trying to coordinate with an airbnb host (although smart locks have improved this), you get regular housekeeping, you can get moved if your room smells bad or something...

For business travel, hotel all the way.