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Thread: In depth analysis of what we're doing as a country (NSR):

  1. #126
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    Originally posted by board
    Dex
    bottom line is until Israel backs out of the occupied territories and quits building settlements suicide bombers will be born every day.


    I know we're going off on a tangent here, but board, certainly you're aware that palestinian terrorism was rampant in the region decades before occupied territories and settlements even existed. Dismantling settlements (which I believe should be done) and backing out of the occupied territories (which were only occupied after Israel was attacked by their neighbors in multiple wars of aggression--and Israel did give up the sinai/didn't invade Egypt at the request of the US) would do little to deter terrorists bent on Israel's destruction. Because Hamas, al Aska Martyr Brigades, Fatah terrorists, et al see all of Israel as "occupied" land. These group don't want peace and until they are reined in by the Palestinians themselves, there is little hope for peace. Time after time, when land for peace is being negotiated, another suicide bombing occurs, bringing the process to a screeching halt. Very sad situation.

  2. #127
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    Natty - whilst removing the settlements and negotiating a workable border may not quell the unrest it would at least reduce the excuses. Why squander the moral high ground so fatuously?

  3. #128
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    Originally posted by bad_roo
    Quite the opposite. Pretending the Arab/Israeli issue isn't germane is the worst sort of blinkering.
    Using it to ignore more pertinent issues, such as the institutionalization of ethnic hatred by Arab governments and neglect of social programs that might promote understanding, is to play into their hands and perpetuate the roots of the problem.
    [quote][//quote]

  4. #129
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    Originally posted by bad_roo
    Natty - whilst removing the settlements and negotiating a workable border may not quell the unrest it would at least reduce the excuses. Why squander the moral high ground so fatuously?
    If it were only a matter of keeping the moral high ground then it could be easily done, but just as in the settlement with Egypt negotiations require the guarantee of a truce. Absent that, and in the face of what has been going on, it is difficult to expect Israel to cede territory, as under the present circumstances many believe that would only create a more militarized, hostile environment (I don't necessarily agree, but it's easy to understand these feelings).
    [quote][//quote]

  5. #130
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    Your argument approaches the issue from just one angle. The problem merits a more sophisticated appraisal of the facts. Ever asked why provide such spoon-fed fodder for the institutionalization of ethnic hatred by Arab nations?

  6. #131
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    Originally posted by natty dread
    Originally posted by board
    Dex
    bottom line is until Israel backs out of the occupied territories and quits building settlements suicide bombers will be born every day.


    I know we're going off on a tangent here, but board, certainly you're aware that palestinian terrorism was rampant in the region decades before occupied territories and settlements even existed. Dismantling settlements (which I believe should be done) and backing out of the occupied territories (which were only occupied after Israel was attacked by their neighbors in multiple wars of aggression--and Israel did give up the sinai/didn't invade Egypt at the request of the US) would do little to deter terrorists bent on Israel's destruction. Because Hamas, al Aska Martyr Brigades, Fatah terrorists, et al see all of Israel as "occupied" land. These group don't want peace and until they are reined in by the Palestinians themselves, there is little hope for peace. Time after time, when land for peace is being negotiated, another suicide bombing occurs, bringing the process to a screeching halt. Very sad situation.
    Of course there are some ultra radicals who will never be happy short of the complete destruction of Israel but right now allot of moderate Arabs are siding with these types because of Israel's continued occupation. The great majority of Palestinians would be satisfied with Israel backing out and recognizing Palestine as a sovereign nation, then it would be much harder if not impossible for the ultra radicals to find support with most Arabs. would all terrorism cease ? No, but there would be a drastic reduction. Israel will always be in a precarious position but they are making their situation allot worse but trying to "get tough "
    "Do the interns get Glocks ? "

  7. #132
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    I don't think it is fatuous to wait until the Palestinian Authority has shown some interest in stopping the terror before the occupied territories are returned--it is common sense to have defensible borders when you are being attacked, buffer zones that, I repeat, were only taken under Israeli control after Israel was attacked. I do agree that the settlements ought to be dismantled immediately and that all possible steps ought to be taken to stop the bloodshed, but achieving the moral high ground means little when Palestinian terrorists are deliberately targeting women and children in pizza parlors for death.

  8. #133
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    Originally posted by bad_roo
    Your argument approaches the issue from just one angle. The problem merits a more sophisticated appraisal of the facts. Ever asked why provide such spoon-fed fodder for the institutionalization of ethnic hatred by Arab nations?
    My point is exactly that we need to consider more than just one angle--to only ask for concessions from one side, or to place blame only on Israel, is to ignore what the reality of the situation is. And I am trying to point out that there is a good reason that Arab governments rely on such rationalizations, and this reason has little to do with the legitimate concerns of Palestinians or other Arab citizens.
    The fact is that such hatred was used in the same way before Israel occupied any of the West Bank/Gaza, and of course existed before Israel even existed. Were Israel to give every bit of land back and remove all settlements it would not change very much of this hatred--being anti-Israel serves too useful a function in the Arab world.
    [quote][//quote]

  9. #134
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    Talking

    Oh, I see where this is going. You're going to blame us Brits for the Crusades!

  10. #135
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    I wasn't going to come right out and say it (I guess I'm not too subtle), but yeah, you guys get credit for that. I think we can blame the Germans, too.
    Why not, right?
    [quote][//quote]

  11. #136
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    A record to be proud of...

    Hi all,

    Quite a season we've been having, huh?


    I just had to post this again.

    Bush makes me sick. The fact that so many americans buy into his warped sense of righteousness and entitlement has me thinking so little of our society right now.

    Blurred Elevens, regardless of your views, you come off as such an asshole.



    George W. Bush, The White House, USA
    LAW ENFORCEMENT: I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine in 1976 for
    driving under the influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and
    had my driver’s license suspended for 30 days. My Texas driving record has
    been "lost" and is not available.
    MILITARY: I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused
    to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use. By joining
    the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.
    PAST WORK EXPERIENCE: I ran for U.S. Congress and lost. I began my career
    in the oil business in Midland, Texas in 1975. I bought an oil company,
    but couldn’t find any oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly
    after I sold all my stock. I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a
    sweetheart deal that took land, using taxpayers money. With the help of my
    father and our right-wing friends in the oil industry (including Enron CEO
    Ken Lay), I was elected Governor of Texas.
    ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR: I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power
    and oil companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union.
    During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden
    city in America. I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune
    of billions in borrowed money. I set the record for the most executions by
    any Governor in American history. With the help of my brother, the
    Governor of Florida, and my father’s appointments to the Supreme Court, I
    became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.
    ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT: I invaded and occupied two countries at a
    continuing cost of over one billion dollars per week. I spent the U.S.
    surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury. I shattered the
    record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history. I set an economic
    record for most private bankruptcies filed in 12-month period. I set the
    all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the U.S. stock
    market. I am the first president in U.S. history to enter office with a
    criminal record. I set the all-time record for most days on vacation in
    any one-year period. After taking-off the entire month of August, I
    presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history. I am supporting
    development of a nuclear “Tactical Bunker Buster,” a WMD. In my State Of
    The Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq, then
    blamed the lies on our British friends. I set the record for most campaign
    fund-raising trips by a U.S. president. In my first year in office over
    2-million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.
    I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period. I
    appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any president in
    U.S. history. I set the record for the least amount of press conferences
    by any president since the advent of television. I presided over the
    biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to intervene when
    corruption involving the oil industry was revealed. I presided over the
    highest gasoline prices in U.S. history. I have cut health care benefits
    for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops
    and their families—in wartime. I have set the all-time record for most
    people worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million
    people) shattering the record for protest against any person in the
    history of mankind. I’ve broken more international treaties than any
    president has in U.S. history. I’m proud that the members of my cabinet
    are the richest of any administration in U.S. history. My “poorest
    millionaire,” Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her. I
    am the first president in U.S. history to order an unprovoked, pre-emptive
    attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against
    the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens, and the
    world community. I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest
    bureaucracy in the history of the United States government. I am the first
    president in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from
    the Human Rights Commission. I withdrew the U.S. from the International
    Criminal Court. I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. prisoners of
    war detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.
    I am the first president in history to refuse United Nations election
    inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election). I am the all-time U.S. and
    world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations.
    My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends,
    Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S.
    history. My political party used the Enron private jets and corporate
    attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my
    election decision. I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton
    against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent
    investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating
    one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history. I garnered the most
    sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a
    year later made the U.S. the most hated country in the world, the largest
    failure of diplomacy in world history. I am the first president in history
    to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest
    threat to world peace and security. I changed the U.S. policy to allow
    convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts. I have so far
    failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden to
    justice.
    RECORDS AND REFERENCES: All records of my tenure as Governor of Texas are
    now in my father’s library, sealed, and unavailable for public view. All
    records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt
    companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All
    records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President attended
    regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for
    public review.
    Please consider my experience when voting in 2004.

  12. #137
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    JONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ha, had to get that in there.
    "It is not the result that counts! It is not the result but the spirit! Not what - but how. Not what has been attained - but at what price.
    - A. Solzhenitsyn

  13. #138
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    str8line, quite the novel there. Would've read more than half of it, but I lost interest. I don't necessarily agree with a lot of the things Bush has done, but I don't disagree with some of them either. The thing about it is....if Clinton was president, Gore, or Jack Hoff, that page would be just as long with just as many indications that whoever it is is a bad person. This whole thread is more or less just that.

  14. #139
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    Telephil,

    How can you lose interest? It's fascinating stuff. Also, I get your point, but I really don't think you could compare Bush's record to Clinton, Gore, the venerable Mr. Jack Hoff, or any other president. Hitler maybe?? JK

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    I'm no great fan of the GWB administration, but continually bringing up dubya's past personal and political "indiscretions" and verbal wipeouts seems a little cheeky to me. Why does it matter TODAY how he got into Yale or that he got a DWI? What's done is done. How about focusing on the here and now?

  16. #141
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    Yo Schmear,

    Personal and verbal ineptitude aside(we all have our moments), it's his political "indiscretions" that are of importance. Did you read the whole post? Talk about shock and awe...

  17. #142
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    Originally posted by str8line
    Yo Schmear,

    Personal and verbal ineptitude aside(we all have our moments), it's his political "indiscretions" that are of importance. Did you read the whole post? Talk about shock and awe...
    Agreed... Both Bush & Hitler suck(ed). Now Bush wants to buy his second term with the votes of poor latinos hoping to get a permanant green card. For shame...

    AND BTW, welcome back str8
    Last edited by Knockneed Man; 01-15-2004 at 02:11 PM.

  18. #143
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    Originally posted by Schmear
    I'm no great fan of the GWB administration, but continually bringing up dubya's past personal and political "indiscretions" and verbal wipeouts seems a little cheeky to me. Why does it matter TODAY how he got into Yale or that he got a DWI? What's done is done. How about focusing on the here and now?
    shrub's present actions are the basis of about 90 % of a six page thread aren't they ?
    "Do the interns get Glocks ? "

  19. #144
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    Originally posted by board
    shrub's present actions are the basis of about 90 % of a six page thread aren't they ?
    Yep, I was just referring to the other 10%.

  20. #145
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    How a person gets to where they are in life -- whether it be in the ski industry or the presidency -- illustrates something about their character. GW's indiscretions constitute a pattern of behavior that allow others to make assumptions about his moral fabric, etc. Our socio-political construct is fascinatingly corrupt. Dems are as much to blame as Reps. Vote for individuals of integrity. Vote with knowledge. Vote with vision. Become part of the political process around you by educating yourself and then involving yourself. I hope we can reinvent ourselves and, once again, become a country of ideals and ideas.
    Last edited by Rusty Nails; 01-15-2004 at 05:15 PM.

  21. #146
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    str8, the fact that what ever source you got that from actually attributes the downward turn in the economy to a president underlines the stupidity with which you post. The largest asset bubble in recorded history popped. It was not Clinton's fault(though he took credit) it inflated or popped during his presidency. the effects fell upon the bush presidency. no one president affects the economy the way this implies. to contend that is baseless. Additionally, stating things such as "I presided over the largest stock market drop in history" and believing it is a presidents fault. debases any argument formed around spotty parts of his record as a governor or businessman.

    He got a DUI. so fucking what. does that say anything about anyone's character???

    did drugs. who on this board has not, or does not.

    please post it again, though.


    Oh, and the Hitler comparisons help arguments too. keep them coming.
    "The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" --Margaret Thatcher

  22. #147
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    Originally posted by Buster Highmen
    AS wild as it seems, sometimes I think that reinstituting the draft would be a good thing. Right now we're developing a military class of people, professional warmongers. The draft would dilute the military culture.
    What are you basing this on? You think the soldiers who are being separated from their families and risking their lives right now are all happy about it? Yay war! I wanna go and die first??? They put on a brave face and do their jobs because that's what they signed up to do, for whatever motivation. You don't have the option of saying - well, I disagree with the politics of this mission so I'm not doing it. Most of my friends who have been deployed over the past several years have tried to make the best of it - focus on the humanitarian aspects of whatever they're doing and get home safe. They're not warmongers - they want it to be over more than anyone else.

    The warmongers you are talking about are the top leaders - both military and civilan, who make these decisions. Saying the "military class" of people are warmongers is ridiculous. 99% of those people in the "military class" have no effect whatsoever on foreign policy - they're just trying to do their jobs the best they can.

  23. #148
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    what she said.
    "The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money" --Margaret Thatcher

  24. #149
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    "Sounds like somebody's gotta case of the Munday's..."

  25. #150
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    Originally posted by altagirl


    The warmongers you are talking about are the top leaders - both military and civilan, who make these decisions. Saying the "military class" of people are warmongers is ridiculous. 99% of those people in the "military class" have no effect whatsoever on foreign policy - they're just trying to do their jobs the best they can.
    I think that this is exactly what Buster was trying to say, AG. Even us raging-peace-at-all-cost-pot-smoking-Shrub-hating-liberal-tree-hugging-hippies support our troops.
    "All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring."

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