Running/training question: Is it worth it to cut weight?

[BeanDip4All]

Yo I noticed a lot of mags post their marathon results here, so I wanted to throw out a training question for all of you compotent, serious athletes

So I'm training for my third marathon right now (San Fran, July 30th), and I sort of have this PR thing going on... totally not planned, but my first one was 5 hours, next one 4:45... see the pattern? Now I somewhat feel that on this third one, I should put my goal around 4:30... or 9-minute miles the entire time.

What vexes me somewhat regarding this situation is that I am more of a "run for fun" type of girl (I do it to raise $$ for Leukemia & Lymphoma, not for any personal dillusions of athletic grandour).... and I also live in NYC and LOVE to go out to eat. And drink. Lots.

Sooo.... to be succinct, my question is: Will being hard-core about my diet over the next two months (and therefore cutting weight) really help my marathon time a lot? My training, running-wise, is pretty on-target. I run 5 days a week with another LONG run on weekends, as well as swim (XT) twice a week and lift 3x... so physically, I've been really dilligent about the training. What I haven't been so conscientious about is my diet. I've never really paid attention to it- I eat what I want when I want.

I'm not overweight right now at all, but I can see places where about 15# can come off of... and carrying an extra 15# of weight for 26.2 miles probably is something that if it can be elimated should be...

Another "problem" with losing the weight is that I run a non-profit that is all about encouraging healthy self esteem in young girls. (www.jillrabbit.org) ... and I am just nervous about being a bad role model for them if I go all psycho-diet on the girls to cut weight for selfish reasons of beating my last marathon time.

Oh, conundrum.... what say yea, Running Mags?
Thanks for your advice

PS- if anyone wants to throw in other training tips here, I'd love em

[Mofro261]

Here's my 0.02

Unless you're really overweight, losing a few pounds isn't really the thing.

It's gonna sound stupid, but if you want to lower your time you are going to have to run faster. In order to run faster you need to do speed work, 1-2x week.

Lot's of info out there on this. When I was trying to run faster I'd do a track workout, usually 8-12 800 repeats faster than race pace (google Yasso 800's), as well as a 30-40 minute run slightly slower than 10K pace. keep the total speed mileage no more than 10-20% of your weekly mileage.

I'd also finish my long runs (last 1/4) at marathon pace. Trains your body to fight fatigue and finish strong.

Incorporate the speed work and the pounds will come off with little adjustment in eating habits (or did for me).

[yesIsaidyes]

I agree with Mofro, it might not help your time much - but as I have gotten older (I'm 30 now), I notice the pounds pack on easier but if you just do little things, it can make a big difference. I cut high fructose corn syrup out of my diet, it actually wasn't that hard, and I dropped about 3-4 pounds. It made me think, huh, those were just corn syrup pounds so they probably were not that good for me.

So I wouldn't get crazy but I would start thinking about your diet if you are an athlete - as opposed to your weight. Eat what you want, just watch the portions, and watch what goes into your food (stay away from chemicals). To determine whether you are happy with your results, look at the bod (does she look strong and healthy?), not the clock or the scale.

[yesIsaidyes]

oh, and this thread will quickly become useless without pictures...

[L7]

Healthy eating also involves avoiding obesity and healthy choices. Not sure why dieting for a set athletic goal should work against anyone's self esteem. Better bet would be to drop weight by upping the training or mileage.

Trying to diet to religiously could impact training but simply making better food choices and some moderation shouldn't hurt. In fact best bet might be just drop the drinking all together for the duration and those calories alone may have an impact. Offer two levels of sponsorship, one for completion and they owe more if you break a certain time, then it isn't purely selfish it raises more money too.

If you want to know if it makes a difference just put 5 or 10 lbs in a pack and do your standard run with that and see if it makes a difference.

[ctarmchair]

Being hardcore about your diet will hurt your time, not help, over the short run. Training requires a lot of work and recovery, which require fuel...not losing more than a pound a week may be a good limit to go by.

If you want to focus primarily on the marathon, drop the lifting and swimming, they'll detract from the running training. Do some pushups, situps and backarches if you want some calesthenics along with the running.

I'd also cut back to no more than 5 days total running, 2 aerobic endurance (be they intervals as mentioned or fartlek), the long run, and 1 or at most two recovery.

Longer-term, light is right for middle and long distance running,...so sadly a lot of high-level runners are right up there with sportclimbers, gymnasts and wrestlers in terms of eating and body-image issues.

[BeanDip4All]

If you want to focus primarily on the marathon, drop the lifting and swimming, they'll detract from the running training. Do some pushups, situps and backarches if you want some calesthenics along with the running.

Hmm... interesting. By "lifting" I was doing some circuits recommended by our Team in Training coach- basically hamstring curls, leg extensions, a bunch of squats and lunges, etc... however I also discovered (and how wierd is this) that I LOVE the bench press... which strikes me as odd because I am sort of a girly-girl about stuff like that. Now I honestly crave going in there and doing the bench. It is the most unusual phenomina. (Self-agrandizing note: am up to 3 sets of 15 reps of 100# )

Also, I think (thought?) that doing a lot of leg-specific lifting would help me with hills... San Fran course has more than any other marathon I've done... and NYC doesn't really have too many hills to train on. (Central Park has ONE, and it is lame).

So you really think any/all lifting detracts from running?

Mofro- good call on the speed work. I have been lazy about doing that... will amp it up.

As for the "add a 5# pack" that sounds like hell... haha... I already hate carrying my loaded fuel belt for any run over 9mi which contains 4 4oz waters, my ipod, and some gels... So point well taken!

Yes- what exactly would you like pictures of, hmm?

[ctarmchair]

So you really think any/all lifting detracts from running?

For marathoning, yes. Sprinting would be a much better choice if you wanted to build running-specific muscles, which you do not, in fact, want to do for marathoning purposes anyway.

For hills, laps on the Brooklyn Bridge can also be good. Also, laps of Prospect Park in Brooklyn, or up by the Cloisters in upper Manhattan. Though I'd talk to people about safety considerations for those last two in terms of when to go/having a running partner etc.

[Mofro261]

I agree 1/2 way with ctarmchair about the weights- don't focus on lower body, you'r already giving your legs a good workout with all the running. Upper body lifting and core strenghening absolutely will (again personal experience) help you get faster and help improve form / running economy, which will help in the later miles.

Hill training can be done on a treadmill if needed (yawn), esp one that goes to 15% incline. Don't try to pack speed workouts and extensive hill workouts in the same week, both require significant recovery time. I'd suggest alternating weeks.

[Viva]

How long have you been training, TLuv? That is, when did you start running? Speed work is fine, but it can come in many forms and you may not be ready for or not really need the track stuff.

Right now, you're on a path to self-discovery. Don't worry about your weight...just don't. Have fun and let things fall into place over time as you build more base and gain more experience. You'll figure it out. Really.

So, what am I saying? STFU, go run, and be happy.

[Vinman]

my contribution here would be for you
1. to make healthier food choices, a bit less booze
2. if you are worried about the hills, as lame as the one hill in the park is, do hill repeats, they will help with leg turn over, strength and the mental aspect of running hills.
3. drop the swims and maybe do some aqua jogger instead
4. if you want to keep lifting lower body make sure it is a high rep , low weight routine to build muscular endurance, something like 3 sets of 15.
5. be that positive role model you want to be by buckling down and making that PR time for the next 2 months. Not to mention the self-esteem boost you'll give yourself.

[steve]

Not nearly the expert that some people here are, but I do have some limited experience and I've read a couple books about this very topic.

When I stop running for fun and start running for times, it's hard for me (personally) to keep the motivation up.. Then again, half the fun is having goals. So I guess it's all about balancing the two.. and one way to know you're out of balance is when training starts to interfere with your lifestyle.

So if you really want to hit that 4:30 mark, I'd try the speedwork approach that others have mentioned here. That's something you can do without making changes to your lifestyle. There are varieties of speedwork.. "hills are speedwork in disguise." Fartlek runs can make speedwork fun. Or whatever floats your boat. If that doesn't work (and I'd be surprised if it didn't), then you can sit down and look at what your priorities are..




On a personal note... you rule. I wish I could run a marathon in 5:00..
My big goal last summer was to run 3 miles in less than 30 minutes. (At 6'6" 330#, it's harder for me than for most people). I think the best I got was 30:40.. which was about a 10 minute improvement over the point when I could run the 3 miles without stopping (it took several months to get to that point.) An ankle injury stopped me dead in my tracks, if you will. But at my size, those books I read weren't written for me.. It was all about those lbs - and running helped me lose weight - and losing weight helped me run faster - which is why I love to run.. so even if I didn't get the 30 minutes, I lost about 30 lbs in the process (I started at 360).. and 1 goal out of 2 ain't bad.

I don't know if that helps or even interests you, but it's my story..

-steve

[hucksquaw]

ok i havent read any of the previous posts but heres my input:

yes, focusing on your diet will help. diet is a key component to athletic performance without a doubt. dont necessarily focus on cutting weight just focus on eating a healthy and well balanced diet (maybe cut back on the booze a little too) and if you lose some pounds in the process than maybe thats not a bad thing, and it will probably improve your run time, even if it isnt super significant. in short, focus on a diet that consists of approx. 40-50% carbohydrates, 20-30% fat (as much good fats as possible, IN-N-OUT doesnt count), and 15-25% protein. replenishment after exercise is also key!

and dont you think that you would be a better role model if you focused on a healthy diet and those around you saw that? why would being health conscious make you appear to be a bad role model? you dont want to be starving yourself (which would make you a bad role model) if thats what you were thinking because that is unhealthy anyways.

edit: what types of running and weight lifting are you doing? because the type of running and weight lifting you do will have a big impact on how well you run

[BeanDip4All]

CT- how many sprint workouts per week would you recommend? One, or two? I love running over the Brooklyn Bridge by the way- I work that into my weekday runs about twice a week!

Viva, I've been training on and off for three years; this will be my third marathon... for this specific one, I started building back mileage in December (I thought I was going to do Vancouver, but then switched to San Fran to see some family that lives out there).. I like your "STFU, go run, and be happy" quote, by the way... one of my favorite quotes about running is from "The Penguin" who is a columist for runners world: "Talk is cheap: When I first started running, I spent more time planning my runs than actually running. I also spent a lot of time talking about running, and not nearly enough time running.... once you start training more and talking less, your running improves." .. .. Haha... I guess I am ignoring that advice here just talking about running, though!

Vinman, your list rocks, thank you! I love #5

Steve, thanks for the advice... and I appreciated your personal aside as well! You might love "The Penguin's" column, his experiences as a runner sound somewhat similar to yours... He also started at a very high weight and slowly worked down... all about no-pressure just having-a-good-time-while-you-are-out-there races. I actually saw him speak at the San Diego marathon expo last summer and he was a fantastic presentor- apparently he was an alchoholic and drug addict and used marathons to turn his life around, etc. Here's his website fyi: http://www.waddleon.com/

Excellent call on the fartleks. We used to do them back in the day in high school XC and I totally forgot about them Will add.

Huck, you're totally right about the diet- I've heard that, as a general fitness rule, it's 60% diet and only 40% workouts... haha.. totally sux for me but I think I am inspired enough now to buckle down.

As for what types of running I am doing, here's my current routine; any tweaks anyone wants to suggest would be awesome Sorry if this is boring. I feel like an egomaniac typing this all out, but you asked for it, so here goes:


Mon: 6 mi QUICK run (maybe I will add fartleks here?), lunges, squats
Tues: weight lifting at gym, pool cardio workout cross training
Wed: 3-4 mi ... maybe add hill repeats here?
Thurs: 6 mi, lifting at gym
Fri: off (was doing another pool day, but now will cut it)
Sat: LONG RUN (at 16 mi now, but working up)
Sun: 6 mi SLOW recovery run (was also doing another day lifting, but I reading everyone's suggestions in this thread I think I will delete this day)

My weights are something like this: (All 3 sets of 15 reps at a low weight, except for the bench, which I like to max out on because i feel ripped )... and by the way, I am not a gym rat at all, so I have no idea what the jargon is for some of these things:

benchpress
step ups onto bench with bicep curls
tricep dips
leg throw down (an ab thing- lay on the bench, throw your legs down)
incline benchpress
calf raises on machine
machine squats
rower
standing straight arm raises with free weight
flys
pulls ups (MY #1 MOST HATED... AGGH I literally DREAD when it is time to do them )
Lat pull downs
Leg extensions
Hamstring curls
Hip ABductor
Hip ADductor
Bridge/plank with feet on ab ball
Tucks on ab ball
regular crunches on ab ball
Standing squats with shoulder press while on upside down 1/2 ball (a really cool balance drill that I like to think is great for skiing prep)

[steve]

You might love "The Penguin's" column, his experiences as a runner sound somewhat similar to yours...

I remember seeing his column in RW.. but never bothered looking up his site. I love it! His article, What's a Penguin totally reminds me of the time I was shuffling along ocean parkway during the brooklyn half-marathon.. I kept looking over my shoulder and seeing the police pick up the cones... they were a good distance away, but still close enough to see. no way I was going to let those guys catch up to me.. hehe..

Thanks for the new bookmark..

[Viva]

Mon: 6 mi QUICK run (maybe I will add fartleks here?), lunges, squats
Tues: weight lifting at gym, pool cardio workout cross training
Wed: 3-4 mi ... maybe add hill repeats here?
Thurs: 6 mi, lifting at gym
Fri: off (was doing another pool day, but now will cut it)
Sat: LONG RUN (at 16 mi now, but working up)
Sun: 6 mi SLOW recovery run (was also doing another day lifting, but I reading everyone's suggestions in this thread I think I will delete this day)

Some random stuff:

Everything's fine here except that I wouldn't take a day off before the long run. I say do something easy on the Friday, say 3-4 miles at a nice "la-la la" pace. You don't have a bike do you?

As your Saturday milage increases, there's no reason why you can't go farther than 6 miles on Sunday, is there? (hint- yes there is and it's inside your head). You don't have a bike, do you?

Take Monday off and don't don't do anything. And if you're gonna drink, do it Sunday night.

I think the pool workouts are great. As far as strength training goes, I say do upper torso stuff like pull-ups, sit-ups, dips, push-ups, and that's it. Don't bother with lower body stuff; your running is enough

Anywho, it's for you to figure out what's best for YOU. The above blathering is simply one rodent's opinion.

HAVE FUN!

[ctarmchair]

CT- how many sprint workouts per week would you recommend? One, or two? I love running over the Brooklyn Bridge by the way- I work that into my weekday runs about twice a week!

[/B]

If you mean sprint workouts intended to help your marathon time, none. As with the lower-body weights. (I'd argue the upper-body stuff is counterproductive, but will concede it won't kill you. ) The above posts have great feedback re: training schedule, but in general terms for the marathon you want to stimulate: volume adaptation, anaerobic threshold, VO2 max, and rest/recovery. Sprinting, or 15 rep weight training, stimulates none of these.

If for general fitness purposes you want to build sprinter-type leg muscles, try 3x200 at 95% intensity, walking 600m between each. You should be close to puking after the last one, do once a week. This would be bad for marathon training though, just better than the weight workout.

[comish]

One bonus for lifting (light weight, lots of reps, 3 sets of 15ish) is injury prevention. Ran in college and when I was lifting (especially quads) my knees were far stronger than not and I didn't get injured (I had all kinds of tendinitus issues which this help cure and prevent). Definitely cut it out as you get closer to the actual event, (say 3-4 weeksish) Running doesn't strengthen quads all that much so they can get fairly week causing a bunch of issues, but primarily knees.

All the women on our team did lift for their upper body and found that made them stronger over time. When they were tiring toward the end of the race they didn't lose their form when their whole body was stronger. You don't want to gain a ton of weight/muscle, but general strength is not a bad thing and if you enjoy it, go for it. There is a surprising amount of arm swinging that goes on over 26miles.

Diet: This is tricky. Yes, a little less weight will help you. NO, you definitely don't want to go all psycho and lose a ton of weight because you do need the energy for all the workouts and recovery you are doing. I think if you lost a few pounds in an intelligent way, that wouldn't hurt ya.

My wife works for a sports nutrition company that is coming out with a new super accurate calorie monitor. It literally monitors how many calories you burn per minute. She was able to lose around 10 or 15 pounds over a few months just by knowing how many calories she actually was burning and could then adjust her input slightly. For example, you could cut out one drink a night and that is 2 to 3 hundred calories right there. Over a month that is actually a fair amount. Little things over time can make a large difference, be healthy, and not turn you psycho. She still drank, ate all meals normally, etc. Maybe a slightly smaller portion at some meals was another example.

Good luck!

[yentna]

http://www.bodybugg.com/home.php

Met a girl wearing one, it's pretty cool, if pricey. Apparently it tells precisely how many calories you burn and when, and you plug in your food and keep track of gaining / losing that way. Just food for thought.

[comish]

That be the device. The thing is pretty dang accurate. Its not pricey when you consider how much people in the world spend on jenny craig, weight watchers, etc. That said, Mrs. Comish knows they have a pricing issue. The other thing is that you are currently paying for a bunch of trainer sessions which is a lot of $$$ since they aren't currently selling just the device itself.

Its been funny to watch all the testing. The consider Mrs Comish the "weird" athlete of the bunch since she does things like Mtn./Roard Bike, ski, and backcountry ski. At one point the thing was having problems with one of the types of biking, but they have it pretty dialed in now so its super accurate. She has been one of the main beta testers for those sports. The dudes behind the device are freigteningly brilliant.

[BeanDip4All]

That be the device. The thing is pretty dang accurate. Its not pricey when you consider how much people in the world spend on jenny craig, weight watchers, etc. That said, Mrs. Comish knows they have a pricing issue. The other thing is that you are currently paying for a bunch of trainer sessions which is a lot of $$$ since they aren't currently selling just the device itself.

Thanks for the ideas re: lifting.... that monitor looks pretty cool. Right now, I wear a hr monitor when I workout that tells me cals burned, but it is pretty rudimentary compared to that!

I think the biggest change in my diet is going to be shifting to "food as fuel" and not "food as fun" for about two months... no biggie... Probably a way healthier mentality and also will be more likely to seep into my lifestyle for the long term.

[comish]

Ya, the HR monitor is not so accurate. Just really has a basic equation that estimates your calories burned.

Good thoughts on the food as fuel. Don't kill yourself and cut everything out, just make some little changes and just being a tiny bit more conscious about it will make a surprising amount of difference. Good luck!

[mnflyfish]

Cutting weight might help a little but I would be careful doing anything drastic with your diet. Perhaps just eating a little smarter, load up on the veggies and protein, think more balanced until your marathon.

The thing that will help your time alot more than weight would be to incorporate speed work into your running workouts. Think Kenyans. Find an out and back loop, run out at 80%, then kick it in gear on your way back trying to beat your out time. Also, look at some of the runnerworld speed programs, most are centered around track running. Another good source for workouts would be beginnertriathelete.com. They have some great programs for the run portion that would translate well into what you're doing.

Lastly, work on core exercises. Try some yoga, strength training, etc. and build muscle in other areas. This will effectively cut your "weight" in a healthy manner, and provide you with a solid base to push for a faster time come race day.

Good Luck, I'm feeling a low 4 hours in your future!
JAy