NSA data base of phone calls

[summit]

Cono Este

Wiretapping calls to and from persons with possible ties to terror? No objection.

Illegal blanket wiretapping of EVERYONE in secrecy without oversite by an organization charged with foreign intelligence duties? HOW THE FUCK IS THAT JUSTIFIED?

I say again:

What we are talking about here isn't abuse of an existing draconian law, it is flat out illegal widespread spying on random US citizens without probably cause, warrant, or due process. I cannot understand how you are OK with this. Your attitude is "As long as they only go after the terrorists, I don't mind if they spy on me, my family, my friends, my neighbors, and the nuns at the convent."

That sounds a lot like: "Don't worry. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to be afraid of."

Witchhunts and blanket surveilance are back. Joe McCarthy and J Edgar Hoover are grinning in their coffins.

You have the attitude that “We must trade some liberty for security."

This is my American attitude:
"Those who would give up Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Thank you Benjamin Franklin!

ETA: I don't care what party is in office. I don't trust the government with that extra power, especially when they are breaking their own laws to get it.

[mr_gyptian]

Do you possess the ability to tell the truth about anything? First of all, the number was 64% of the country and the question asked was do you believe "the National Security Agency [should] be allowed to intercept telephone conversations between terrorism suspects in other countries and people living in the United States."

I wonder why those numbers were so high?

I stand corrected. I assure you there is no nefarious plot behind my mis-statement.

this phone call database is a different program than the wiretapping. the wiretapping was specific to the calls outside our borders.

also, eavesdropping is not a part of the phone call database.

finally, would you guys be pissed at the administration if someone blew up a tanker as it was leaving port and we didn't have a program like this?

[MassLiberal]

neo-cons are liberals mugged by reality, I must admit I do find a lot of their ideas appealing. But like the entitlement program that my side loves, their shit don't fly as planned.

[MassLiberal]

I stand corrected. I assure you there is no nefarious plot behind my mis-statement.

this phone call database is a different program than the wiretapping. the wiretapping was specific to the calls outside our borders.

also, eavesdropping is not a part of the phone call database.

finally, would you guys be pissed at the administration if someone blew up a tanker as it was leaving port and we didn't have a program like this?

Gyptian, I will give you credit for whenever I try to get you pissed off about something, you never take the bait.

[lemon boy]

finally, would you guys be pissed at the administration if someone blew up a tanker as it was leaving port and we didn't have a program like this?

What if game is bullshit.

No what ifs: I'm willing to live with a little extra danger for my civil liberties. More than this shit that's only good for trampling liberties, I'd like to have a functioning intel agency that was good at putting spies into terrorist orgs and having them disrupt those activities. But NOOOOOOOO we put our money into a database instead of direct interdiction. BULLSHIT!

[freshies]

I really hope that the Dems get a majority in one house this fall, because then we can impeach this piece of shit. i mean, how many laws and civil liberties has this guy and his administration trampled on? And when they get caught, its always the same song and dance: "we are using this to fight the terrorists, its not aimed at ordinary Americans" BULL SHIT. Much like Nixon created his "enemies list" (primarily made up of critics, journalists, student activists and famous people like John Lennon, etc), you can bet this ass hole and Rove et al have a nice dossier on all those who dare question King George.

Does this guy accept responsibility for anything?
Leading us into an unnecessary war in Iraq under false pretenses, failing to properly plan for said war, failing to have an exit strategy, gross corporate hand-outs via no bid contracts to political cronies (in Iraq and domestically to energy companies), the raping of our natural resources, turning a blind eye to global warming, the abject failure of Katrina, the list is endless.....and its always someone else's fault. This guy has no spine, b/c "Jesus guides me" in all his decisions, so he thinks he is infallible. Frightening, really.

[Tippster]

Hear Hear, LB! The "Security" card is absolute bullshit. We are no more secure giving up our civil liberties than we were before.

[MassLiberal]

well, we also did a really great job of destroying the CIA, goss was nothing but a hatchet man. We are now much more vulnerable because of what he did.

[Cono Este]

Cono Este

Wiretapping calls to and from persons with possible ties to terror? No objection.

Illegal blanket wiretapping of EVERYONE in secrecy without oversite by an organization charged with foreign intelligence duties? HOW THE FUCK IS THAT JUSTIFIED?

I say again:



ETA: I don't care what party is in office. I don't trust the government this much, sespecially when they are breaking their own laws. How can you?

i agree with some of what you are saying as to general wiretapping.. But how do think this call database works? I imagine its running all these numbers, matching them up and spitting out suspicious activity. If that is aimed at matching up people with 30 cell phones making calls to known terrorists, i have no problem with it. Its not as simple as when everyone just had a landline hanging on the kitchenwall. shit, my cell phone is even in another persons name. Chatrooms etc... the ease at which our enemies can now communicate with one another have seriously made govt's job more difficult to protect us. And not just against terrorism. Globalization as a whole as placed a need for us to modify law, or more acurately for the rest of the world to do so.

But I agree with you, it seems as though terrorism has been an excuse for wide spread wiretapping.

Now you go smoke a joint, and I will catch the short bus home.

[cj001f]

finally, would you guys be pissed at the administration if someone blew up a tanker as it was leaving port and we didn't have a program like this?

No. I've said before that much of the post 9/11 reaction is bullshit. It's more about shovelling $$$ to special interests (read up on the Cunningham case) and appeasing the stupid sectors of the electorate than fixing problems.

[Tippster]

Congress: "We want to see your records of what you store and what you do with them. We want to depose you under oath."

NSA: "No."

In a way I'm in awe of their balls.

[MassLiberal]

Tipp, you forgot the last line of that.

Congress: Okay.

[klar]

Liberty, as it is perceived by current opinion, has nothing inherent about it; it is a sort of gift bestowed upon the individual by the state pending good behaviour.
(Mary McCarthy, 1952)

[summit]

Now you go smoke a joint, and I will catch the short bus home.

The short bus kids are my biggest customers. Why do think they are so good at finger painting? My shit is quality. I'll see you soon!

[freshie247]

Is that your best example? Someone who traveled overseas for terrorist training and conspired with known Al Queada memebers? I was hoping for an innocent hippy with a knack for horticulture.

The US is successfully trying to extradite this guy named Emery from BC Canada because he sells seeds to people some of whom take them to the US. Whether or not this is a crime in BC is debateable.The US Government spent 450 MILLION on Genotyping different pot strands so they can trace genetics to people. YES,... THAT'S ALMOST HALF A BILLION FOR STUPIDLY RETARDED attempts to bust your "hippies" !

Personally,I"d rather see that money go to any list of infinitely more important resourses like: Alternative Energy,Education,Infrastructure,Cancer Research,Space Programs ,fixing our Intelligence agencies,F*CK MAN ,VIRTUALLY ANYTHING ELSE!

Independant Thinkers will be the next group of terrorists to these people!

[PNWbrit]

I just realized how we can stand up to this - all it needs is a few seconds of your time and a couple of dollars.

Once a week everyone in the nation who opposes this database (there must be around 100 million?) should call a random Middle Eastern phone number. You wouldn't have to say anything suspicous or shady you could even just say "hey I'm from America and I apologise for what the President is doing over there. We're really doing all we can to get rid of him. We don't hold you or your nation responsible for 9/11 and don't want to invade you, corrupt your way of life, harm your religion or steal your oil"

The spike in calls to Iran, Saudi, Iraq, etc. should so distort their database that it woudn't be worth them updating it anymore.

[cj001f]

Have they found a way to trace VOIP calls? If not, they are really behind the 8-ball....

[summit]

Have they found a way to trace VOIP calls? If not, they are really behind the 8-ball....

I belive they are trying to pass legislation mandating that VOIP providers make provisions for wiretapping.

[cloudpeak]

I just realized how we can stand up to this - all it needs is a few seconds of your time and a couple of dollars.

Once a week everyone in the nation who opposes this database (there must be around 100 million?) should call a random Middle Eastern phone number. You wouldn't have to say anything suspicous or shady you could even just say "hey I'm from America and I apologise for what the President is doing over there. We're really doing all we can to get rid of him. We don't hold you or your nation responsible for 9/11 and don't want to invade you, corrupt your way of life, harm your religion or steal your oil"

The spike in calls to Iran, Saudi, Iraq, etc. should so distort their database that it woudn't be worth them updating it anymore.

You go first and let us know how it works out for you.

If we don't hear from you, we'll understand.

[spindrift]

...should call a random Middle Eastern phone number...

TR's from Gitmo are useless without pics...

[pointedem]

until we start hearing about a massive amount of people getting rolled from their wiretapped phones, I wouldnt stress over it. What do you talk about on the phone, anyways?

[spindrift]

Have they found a way to trace VOIP calls? If not, they are really behind the 8-ball....

It is reasonable to assume that not only can "they" sniff packets of many varieties, but most likely that "they" can readily determine the physical location of the origin of those packets as well. Just in case you were wondering...

[buckethead]

I really hope that the Dems get a majority in one house this fall, because then we can impeach this piece of shit. i mean, how many laws and civil liberties has this guy and his administration trampled on? And when they get caught, its always the same song and dance: "we are using this to fight the terrorists, its not aimed at ordinary Americans" BULL SHIT. Much like Nixon created his "enemies list" (primarily made up of critics, journalists, student activists and famous people like John Lennon, etc), you can bet this ass hole and Rove et al have a nice dossier on all those who dare question King George.

if this were only the case...but i don't see any functiioning opposition in the democratic party to counter what is really a fundamental shift in not only the US, but global power arrangement. dems v. republicans is really for the consumption of the spectating 99.9% of the population...neither party works in the interests of anything but the corporate state...and behind both parties, the permanent military-security/industrial/intelligence complex that remains untouched regardless of which party is office. and in this time of permanent war, any brave ppolitician who dares to challenge the order of the day will be essentially alone. look at russ feingold's attempt to even modestly censure bush - no support from any of his fellow senators. (i bet wellstone would have been there with him, but not for an unfortunate accident) and when the small few in the house meet to look at impeachment, the story is buried far from sight.

and beyond the wiretapping etc is a future of RFID chips in everything around us...like that very apt cartoon posted up thread (tag...)

unfortunately waking up to this reality will be too much for most americans to handle...fostering paranoia takes commitment and a receptive community of support...and thus the obsession with passive entertainment of all sorts - including wars, till they get ugly...and then on to the next one

[mr_gyptian]

Gyptian, I will give you credit for whenever I try to get you pissed off about something, you never take the bait.

Mass, I have no soul.

LB, I too would love to have an intel agency that infiltrates terrorist orgs too. I think the NSA was doing that with the wiretapping, in fact doing a damn good job of that with the wiretapping. and what if's for Coloradoan's might not have the resonance it does for a Manhattanite.

Finally, thank the late 70s for cutting the balls off the CIA. Sen. Church et. al. didn't do us any favors.

[PNWbrit]

It is reasonable to assume that not only can "they" sniff packets of many varieties, but most likely that "they" can readily determine the physical location of the origin of those packets as well. Just in case you were wondering...

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70524-0.html - My money would be on the nerds being smarter than the NSA

until we start hearing about a massive amount of people getting rolled from their wiretapped phones, I wouldnt stress over it. What do you talk about on the phone, anyways?

Yeah perhaps you're right

But can we get a ruling on exactly what is a massive amount of people getting rolled?

more than the number of German settlers lynched in Montana during WW1?
more than the number of Japanese rounded up and intered in WW2?
more than were subjected to McCarthy's witch hunts?
more than were lynched in the south protesting for civil rights?
.
.
.
.
etc.