skin track, please comment

[klar]

sorry picture isn't very clear. note skin tracks bottom right of pic between slides, then moving across further up. it had snowed all day, maybe 20 cm of very wet heavy snow, not bonding at all to the old stuff. the next day this layer had kind of frozen on top and there was a bit of new fluff. you could still easily break the crust underneath though and get to a layer of wet muck. we were seeing slides all day, mostly point releases, some slabs. nothing seemed to go deeper than the wet layer but we saw several people get caught in what they triggered themselves and slide over some nasty rocks. the tracks appeared the day after these particular slides came down (there is another bigger one to the right of the tracks, not in pic). it had been a cold night and they obviously went up very early in the morning. still not exactly a snowpack i would feel very safe on, saw some stuff come down later that day, but not as bad as the days before. really don't know what to make of those tracks, maybe i am just freaked out by what's left and right?

[summit]

awesomeness

[KANUTTEN]

Obviously when things are sliding left and right, things aren't exactly safe. A few points though;

Slides that are selfreleasing isn't nearly as dangerous as slides that get released by a skier/hiker/climber. You need quite bad luck to get caught in a self released avy, whereas you need extremely good luck not to get caught in a skier released avy.

Slabslides are more dangerous than pointslides (maybe not the right term in english), for the same reason as above. If this heavy muck was sliding on the layer underneath, and the heavy muck wasn't windloaded, it is likely to be a pointslide. In your picture on the right, however, it appears to have been a slab coming off, so not so clear cut.

Stability of a slab is reduced when (1) stress increases (increased weight as in skier or snow) (2) temps increase. If temps increase and then decrease it is good though. In the increase period the snow gets a chance to consolidate, when the temps decrease the "strength" of the slab stays the same.

Walking in avy debris is prolly good, as that is less likely to slide again.

Those tracks were put there a day after snowfall. Not exactly a check for safety, but at least it wasn't the same day. But the big factor is the fall in temp. It appears as these slides came off due to their heavy weight as pointsslides (or no??). At lower temps they are less likely to come off.

So not supersupersupersilly, but it looks a bit sketchy still, I'll have to say.

My 2c.

[KANUTTEN]

Having another look at that picture; its pretty much impossible to avoid exposure on that ascent. Maybe walking in debris all the way would do it, but still. Even though the stability must have increased because of lower temps in the morning, given that the snow was so unstable with no extra weight it is not clear that lower temps would make it stable enough to make it support the weight of skiers. It all depends on the risks you want to take.

I would not have done it.

[Squatch]

i'm a huge avy jong, but it seems like lots of warming/enough to trigger wetslides, combined with a strong refreeze overnight and an early ascent wouldn't pose much threat. somebody tell me if i'm right or full of shit.

[KANUTTEN]

But are these proper wetslides? Look at the picture on the right avy towards the top; the shaded area. It may be that the avy startet off as a wetslide (the point start at the top), but once it got to the shaded part it started a slab avy. If that is true then maybe the weight of the heavy snow + weight of skiers could be enough to release a slide. Maybe? Lower temps are good though. But hell, those two pretty serious avys came off without any additional weight, so not exactly superstable...

All that quasi-rational bullshit aside; I tend just to look at that pic and my gut just tells me; not a good idea. fwiw.

[klar]

Walking in avy debris is prolly good, as that is less likely to slide again.

that's what i thought, if you are going to go up there why not in the path of the slide instead of inbetween?

It appears as these slides came off due to their heavy weight as pointsslides (or no??).

i didn't see these come down but from what i saw most of the slides that day were point releases initially, some triggering slabs along the way.

Slides that are selfreleasing isn't nearly as dangerous as slides that get released by a skier/hiker/climber.

i understand your point but if slides are already selfreleasing, surely the danger of skiers releasing slides all the higher? we certainly saw a few people get thrown around by their slough-turned-to-sizeable-slide.

thanks for the input.