HELP*** someone please explain too me....

[Stone-Free]

to give people the same opportunity my parents and others were given to come here and build a better life: legally.

Immigration should not be a free-for-all. Not only for the preservation of order here, but also for the safety and non-explotation of the immigrants themselves.

Our immigration programs need serious overhauling considering the rapidly changing economic and political scenario of our country. But that doesn't mean we should become a borderless nation. It's not fair to us, and also it's not fair to those who want to build a better life but can't because "the guest bedroom wasn't ready" for them so to speak.

And it's not to say that we don't empathize with the people who are here and want a better life. But we believe that it can't continue this way, unregulated and uncontrolled.
Sprite

THANK YOU!!!

[Tippster]

So what do you propose we do withthose already HERE? Round them up in cattle cars, maybe keep the in detention centers for a while, then truck them to the border and dump them on the Juarez Bridge?

Face it, folks - turning the US/Mexican border into a facsimile of the Berlin Wall or Korean DMZ isn't gonna happen. What the President proposes, and I give him credit for it, is to streamline the process to get these guys working here legally so that we could tax them, thus helping to pay for all those services they "steal."

Wishing them away won't work.

Oh - all these "drains on society" also buy goods and services just like you and I do. They pay rent, buy food, clothing, and gas, and maybe go out for a cocktail. You want them to pay income tax? Most make less than the poverty level anyway, and thus would be exempt. Don't be angry at the lettuce pickers, brick carriers, and busboys - be angry at the good ole 'Murrican Citizens who play the Welfare system instead of doing these menial jobs.

[snowsprite]

No, I don't think we should round up the people already here! But they do need to get into the system so to speak...get them "legalized" unless there's some reason they really shouldn't be (they don't want to, or they are criminals). And yes, paying taxes is part of that and could go a long way toward curing some of the bitterness people feel about the situation.

But that doesn't negate that we are responsible for providing better safeguards and policies with regard to the issue of how they got over here in the first place.

It's a many-faceted problem, unfortunately. And one we won't begin to solve in a year, or even a decade.

Sprite

[bklyn]

Yes, they should get those day workers lurking around the home depots and at the side of the road and arrest them. I only ask that you wait until they get picked up by employers who are going to put them to work for cash, under the table and not taxed. These employers are not shouldering their share of taxes either.

Then haul the whole bunch to jail, not because they may or may not be illegal aliens. Get them for tax evasion. Same on the farms where they get an incredible amount of tax breaks and federal subsidies anyway and then turn around and break the law with impunity. Close the loop on both ends. Otherwise the 'law and order' talk is just discriminatory bullshit.

Plus all you people talking about your ancestors coming here before 1965, should see what the immigration policy was when they came here,
vs now.

[Tin Woodsman]

So what do you propose we do withthose already HERE? Round them up in cattle cars, maybe keep the in detention centers for a while, then truck them to the border and dump them on the Juarez Bridge?

Face it, folks - turning the US/Mexican border into a facsimile of the Berlin Wall or Korean DMZ isn't gonna happen. What the President proposes, and I give him credit for it, is to streamline the process to get these guys working here legally so that we could tax them, thus helping to pay for all those services they "steal."

Wishing them away won't work.

Oh - all these "drains on society" also buy goods and services just like you and I do. They pay rent, buy food, clothing, and gas, and maybe go out for a cocktail. You want them to pay income tax? Most make less than the poverty level anyway, and thus would be exempt. Don't be angry at the lettuce pickers, brick carriers, and busboys - be angry at the good ole 'Murrican Citizens who play the Welfare system instead of doing these menial jobs.

This is by far the most informed and sane opinion I've seen on this issue in this forum. Including my own.

[Art Shirk]

We're all immigrants. My grandparents came here from Russia. They were welcomed at Ellis Island, and documented.

I don't know why the attitude has changed. What happened to "bring us your tired, your hungry..."?

Oh - and to whoever asked how this was organized? The original demonstration, a couple months ago in downtown LA, was organized by a d.j. A very popular, very successful, d.j. on the radio in LA - a spanish station with the highest ratings in the country.

This kind of argument never ceases to amaze me. Yeah, we are all immigrants...yeah, bring me your cold, tired etc....What this argument fails to address is that the immigrants that founded this nation predominantly came at a time of free borders or legal naturailization via Ellis Island. These are the people who built our country. They are different then the people the current debate incorporates.

My great grandfather came through Ellis Island. He had to leave his family behind because he could not afford to bring them. He farmed and worked the land until he could send for them and invite them to the land of prosperity in a LEGAL fashion. He took no short cuts, he played by the system and he created a great american family over the next two generations.

I will be goddamned if he required that his train ticket from New York to North Dakota be printed in German. These are the immagrants we should speak of when we discuss our foundation. Do not conflate the issue.

[bklyn]

^ Arse!

Could your great grandfather read? He probably asked someone to read the ticket for him.

It's a good thing so many people all over the world have taken the time and trouble to learn English. Otherwise, I'd be at a loss traveling anywhere else in the world.

[The AD]

He had to leave his family behind because he could not afford to bring them. He farmed and worked the land until he could send for them and invite them to the land of prosperity

You're right. This part sounds totally different than any of the immigrants of today

[mc_roon]

I am 100% Blackfoot. You should all get the fuck out.

now here is someone who had a real excuse to riot. But, that was all lost with the indian casinos.

[yogachik]

The point everyone is missing is this: our ancestors came here (mostly) to escape a troubled land. You know, the last time there was this kind of uproar about immigration was when the Catholics were coming here en masse.

The problem comes from the source: Mexico. We need to help fix a corrupt country. You don't see a problem with Canadians coming here in droves, do you? It's not a border problem, its problem has deeper roots.

[mattitude]

I had some compassion for the illegal aliens until a friend sent me this list from the LA Times:

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A.County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish (10.2 million people in L.A.County).

(All 10 from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops but 29% are on welfare.
http://www.cis.org/


Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration.

The cost of illegal immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was a NET (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $70 BILLION a year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University].

The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE

[Stone-Free]

The problem comes from the source: Mexico. We need to help fix a corrupt country.

Why is it the responsibility of the United States to fix and aid every other country around the world that has problems? Humanitarian missions and such are very worthwhile instances, but why in the fuck should we pump a trillion dollars of taxpayer money into another country that wont help itself get up off the mat. As corrupt as Fox and his people are, do you think they money we would provide would go to the necessary faculties within Mexico? Not a chance. For fuck sake, we cant figure out our own healthcare and social security systems, and any surplus money (that we dont have) should be spent within our country on our issues. Sending aid to Mexico in any way to help get their Gov't turned around is an assinine concept, IMHO.

Flame on....

[PacRimRider1]

No one should have an opinion on this until they read the essay "Into the strawberry fields" by Eric Schlosser (found in the book Reefer Madness.) If it weren't for illegal immigrants picking fruit at three dollars an hour, or going into huge amounts of debt in BS "share cropping" schemes America's and especially California's fruit growing industry would collapse.

You cannot blame someone for trying to survive. You cannot punish these people. You cannot corral them up and send them back over the boarder. You cannot build a shitty wall to keep them out.

They would not come here if there were not jobs available for them. Regulation of the businesses who profit of this cheap labor will help. Real punishment for employing undocumented workers, instead of mere slaps on the wrists will help. A bit of compassion for these people living in poverty inside the US will go a long way.

Punishing them will do absolutely nothing.

[13]

Lots of fearful rhetoric in here -- kind of on par for the board lately.

[PacRimRider1]

I had some compassion for the illegal aliens until a friend sent me this list from the LA Times:

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3's of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A.County 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak Spanish (10.2 million people in L.A.County).

(All 10 from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops but 29% are on welfare.
http://www.cis.org/


Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration.

The cost of illegal immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was a NET (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $70 BILLION a year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University].

The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE

Think!

1. Whose fault is this, the workers or the employers?

2.-5. Not to take the blame off personal decisions, but what poverty stricken peoples anywhere in America do not comprise the majority of crime in that particular region? There is a word for stating facts such as those and making conclusions about an entire group of people, and the word is racism. As far as infant birth rate is concerned, again high numbers can be attributed to the poverty state of these people.

6. I can see how this would kill your compassion for them. Have they no taste?!

7. Ties into 2-5.

8. These are the lucky ones.

9.,10. I find this Spanish speaking controversy hilarious. These politicians get on television and say "if we don't do something now, America's official language will become Spanish" and then go on vacation to Cancun and yell at the bartender for not understanding him. I am sorry you can't find a good English radio station. Put in a CD.

I am not saying this is the right coarse of action, but if we were to grant amnisty to these people, I would bet all the numbers you listed above would go down rapidly.

Keep in mind also that it is very difficult to get accurate statistics on something that is not supposed to exist.

[spindrift]

With respect to mattitude's info, how about a little more critical thinking? I was unable to find LA Times or other citations to check any of these claims. So I am somewhat skeptical about the overall validity and truth of these claims. However, for the sake of argument, let's just assume that this info is literally true as presented (which, again, I question) and look at the first few...

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

If true, this probably has little impact on taxes when all is said and done. As noted by others, they would still be paying sales tax. And any landlord they have would still be paying property taxes. As for federal income taxes, if they occupy the bottom rungs of the wage scale, as is commonly believed and represented here, then they would be paying very little in federal income tax anyway. Net tax loss - probably not much.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

This statistic is widely quoted. A few minutes with Google will find it time and time again. However, I was not able to find any specific documentation of the claim (just repeats). Having too much time on my hands, I called LAPD. They were friendly and helpful, but several departments (including media relations) were unable to confirm this number. And I did not have the heart to burn taxpayer dollars putting in a request to have someone in media relations investigate the stats for me (and to do so I would have had to claim that this post represent the use of the result in "print media" ).

But again, the wording is interesting and if taken literally it may reveal less than the initial gut response makes us think it does. It tells us nothing about the ratio of murder warrants issued against undocumented folks vs the population overall. Most likely, it just tells us that it is harder to find and apprehend people who are already under the radar and who might have readily fled the country when a warrant was issued. So what we might well be seeing is warrants accrued and not closed over decades. The take away might just be that motivating everyone (or virtually everyone) to become part of the system would be the easiest way to close this up.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

Taking this at face value, once again for the sake of discussion, it may well represent the same phenomenon as #2. For "fun", check out http://www.lapdonline.org/all_most_wanted

One more thought...as the "illegal" population has (apparently) continued to rise, the violent crime rate in LA has decreased quite a bit. Hmmmm... check out http://www.lapdonline.org/crime_maps_and_compstat and http://www.lapdonline.org/assets/pdf/cityprof.pdf

And as for this one...

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops but 29% are on welfare.
http://www.cis.org/

I get suspicious when "think tanks" don't provide clear links to their boards, lists of researchers, etc. A few minutes spent researching these guys debunks any notion of impartiality. They are moderate sounding "face" guys for a very non-moderate bunch.

This is the kind of issue that is very polarized and simple "truths" can be used as wedges - whether or not they really are the truth you think they are, and whether or not they really support the "quick" conclusion you think they do.

What are the real issues? What solutions are possible? Which ones are likely to be effective - short and long term? Economically practical? And so on.

And more importantly, put it in the big picture. How important and urgent is this issue relative to other problems the US is dealing with?

[Donkey Punch]

Don't even try to compare the illegals to our ancestors who migrated here. Our grandparents made conscious efforts to assimilate to American society, and they became law abiding, tax paying citizens. Border jumpers take advantage of the public systems that we fund as tax paying citizens. I don't know about you but the knowledge that they are freeloading off of us really upsets me.

Yes, I fully support making the act of illegally entering the U.S. a fellony. It is already illegal, the new law will just make it so that we can punish "illegals" more severly. And I firmly believe the term "illegals" is completely appropriate. What would you rather they be called, "permanent visitors"? Give me a break. You're probably one of the guys who wants the use of Indians as mascots to be made illegal because it could possibly offend an Indian.

I'm glad I don't live in your town, and I'm glad you don't live in my town.

AMEN to that, I am so glad that others look at it this way to. I honestly can't believe that people can compare what legal imigrants did like all of our ancestors to what Pedro and Jesus are doing now a days. I honestly feel that its people like that that are causing so many of the problems that we are having in this country today. So why don't all of you ultra librals go hug your kid that just gave some 14 year old a bag a cocaine for blowing them a hug and then put them in a timeout. Yeah hugs and timeouts will fix everything.

[Pow4Brains]

Yeah hugs and timeouts will fix everything

Do you need a hug........bwahahaha

[Knight]

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

Just some loose math here: figure 4 million people making $15,000/year (15% tax bracket)

$15,000 X .15 = $2250
$2250 X 4,000,000 = $9,000,000,000

And thats just L.A. County's federal tax increase (in a perfect world).