Question for Vinman and/or runners

[72Twenty]

As I have mentioned in other areas, I quit using tobacco this year and it is all great, yadda yadda yadda. The downside of that whole thing is that I gained some weight right after quiting due to the constant and nervous snack-eating to keep my mind off the chew. It has been 4 months now, and I am ready to get back into shape and I want to drop about 15 to 20 pounds. (that will put me back near my high school football & lacrosse weight ).

My question is this... I am afraid to start running because I have sore knees and have had my meniscus (spelling?..sorry) repaired once (right, medial). But I really like running and think I will enjoy doing it again. I have a good pair of shoes (bought some Montrail trail runers and also have some Nike Air Max runners that fit me well).

Now - a few months back I bought one of those Tony Little's Gazelles exercise machine from a friend who was moving. I have been using it and it seems to be working a little, but I really want to get out and run to start seeing increased effect. THe plus side of the Gazelle is that it doesn't hurt my knees.

Here is my question, should I risk injury and soreness of my knees in order to get out and run, or should I stick to the Gazelle? Do you thing using a Gazelle will be as effective as actual running?

My goals: increase endurance, cardio and lose about 15-20 pounds in the next few months.

Thanks.

[ctarmchair]

I need to give a big caveat that without knowing more of your specific knee history there may be some issue there. But, in general, running with an appropriate footstrike on appropriate surfaces should be fine for your knees, hips and lower back. Running with a jarring, "jogging" heelstrike on asphalt, particularly the sloping sides of roads, can be a recipe for trouble. If you can't maintain good running form for long enough right away, race walking is much better than jogging.

Running or race walking would both be hugely better than the Gazelle in terms of overall fitness.

[Yeti]

No idea what the Gazelle is, but I am a runner who took time off for medial meniscus damage (not surgically repaired). That was over a year ago, and I have no medial meniscus problems now. Does running hurt your knees, or are your knees just plain sore?

When I am sore, I usually pregame with ibuprofen before running -- help keep pain/swelling down. I second ctarmchair's warnings about heelstriking and crowned roads -- recipe for pain.

[72Twenty]

I need to give a big caveat that without knowing more of your specific knee history there may be some issue there. But, in general, running with an appropriate footstrike on appropriate surfaces should be fine for your knees, hips and lower back. Running with a jarring, "jogging" heelstrike on asphalt, particularly the sloping sides of roads, can be a recipe for trouble. If you can't maintain good running form for long enough right away, race walking is much better than jogging.

Running or race walking would both be hugely better than the Gazelle in terms of overall fitness.

I've never really been taught *how to* run. I've always just ran, I guess, but I have no idea if I am doing it right....

[72Twenty]

Just to add to it.....

Is there any fitness difference between running in the morning when you wake up versus running in the afternoon/evening after work?

[Viva]

You need to be evaluated to determine if those shoe you have are appropriate for you. Just cause they fit and feel comfy doesn't mean that they're giving the correct support, etc. Any good running store can do this for you, just ask.

As far as running goes, whenever I used to come off an injury, I'd sometimes start out on a track, either dirt or composite. Sometimes, I'd run on the grass inside of the track. Run a few miles this way, alternating the direction every couple of laps and see whether or not you can go 30-45 minutes without discomfort. If things start to feel sketchy, stop right there, walk to your car, drive home, break out a beer. Better than something happening during a run 5 miles from home, eh?

15-20 pounds is a bit of weight. Don't force yourself to lose it so quickly, eventhough you probably can- how old are you?

[Viva]

Just to add to it.....

Is there any fitness difference between running in the morning when you wake up versus running in the afternoon/evening after work?

Ah, great question.

It really depends on you and your circadian rhythm. Me, personally, does best in the late afternoon/early evening. For whatever reason, I love getting up early, say around 5:00 AM, but I hate morning excercise. But I kick ass once 2 or 3 PM rolls around. I don't know why.

So, I say, when do you feel like running?

[72Twenty]

You need to be evaluated to determine if those shoe you have are appropriate for you. Just cause they fit and feel comfy doesn't mean that they're giving the correct support, etc. Any good running store can do this for you, just ask.

As far as running goes, whenever I used to come off an injury, I'd sometimes start out on a track, either dirt or composite. Sometimes, I'd run on the grass inside of the track. Run a few miles this way, alternating the direction every couple of laps and see whether or not you can go 30-45 minutes without discomfort. If things start to feel sketchy, stop right there, walk to your car, drive home, break out a beer. Better than something happening during a run 5 miles from home, eh?

15-20 pounds is a bit of weight. Don't force yourself to lose it so quickly, eventhough you probably can- how old are you?

I just turned 29. I was thinking of runing on grass anyway. I live near the junior high, and they have a football field as well as a track - the track looks to be kinda like clay or something. I can also go over to the softball complex and run around the fields in the grass.

[72Twenty]

At this point I'd rather do 'laps' somewhere, rather than just heading out down the road. I think I can be more calculated and keep better track of my progress. Then after a while when I am in better shape, I can take to the trails and stuff.

oh - and I am also going to be doing my sit-up and push-up routines regularly, so I am not just relying on running here; but it is going to be the main focus of my program...

[Viva]

Then after a while when I am in better shape, I can take to the trails and stuff.

One thing to consider, you don't need "trail shoes" to run trails (I saw that you have some montails), unless, maybe, it's really muddy. But whatever, make sure you're in the right shoes and be happy.

[72Twenty]

One thing to consider, you don't need "trail shoes" to run trails (I saw that you have some montails), unless, maybe, it's really muddy. But whatever, make sure you're in the right shoes and be happy.

Yeah, I actually bought them for everyday wearing and biking (I only have toe-clips on my bike).

I was thinking, if I run in grass, what about wearing my baseball cleats that I play softball in?

[Viva]

I was thinking, if I run in grass, what about wearing my baseball cleats that I play softball in?

Why, you planning on stealing 2nd?

Really, those shoes weren't designed for continuous running. Running shoes will work on most surfaces/terrains.

[ctarmchair]

Running barefoot on grass (that you're reasonably sure is free of glass and other foreign objects) can be a great way to develop a better footstrike and stride. The cleats I wouldn't recommend though.

[72Twenty]

I just mentioned that becasue I am going to start playing in a softball league this month too...

[Vinman]

Sorry I am late to this. I was out of the office all day.

my suggestion would be to approach this as an unknown. And what i mean by that is gradually increase the amount of running you want to do. maybe only start out with a mile slowly. and then gradullly build up to see how your knees will react.

Viva is right about the shoes. 1 make sure you have a shoe that is built for your foot type and 2 cleats were not mean to run distance in.

As for the sore knees. Most of the people I see with "sore knees" have horrible hamstring flexibility. If you are in that category I would make sure you statred streching every day or even 2x/day.

Take it slow and build up slowly.

[72Twenty]

Thanks! What types of stretches should I focus on?

[mnflyfish]

Like others have said, I have no idea as to your injury but I have had some significant knee problems over the years but last summer I kicked the smoking habit and took up running. Now I'm smoke free and down 40 pounds. Your stride is very important, I always "think run light" don't pound your legs with a heel strike, land in the middle to forward part of your feet. Also, you said you have a good pair of trail shoes, try to spend the majority of your time on dirt, asphalt second, concrete stay home. I spend the majority of my running time on a clay surface trail that's great until it rains then I'm slipping on my ass about every half mile. It has really increased my speed and endurance on asphalt, I've been adding mileage for a marathon and when I do run on asphalt I'm much faster than before, I think it has something to do with the give in the surface I normally run on.

I also started taking glucosimine (sp) for my 36th birthday and I think it helps, haven't had to take a lot of Advil since I started those supplements.

Start slow and if you feel any pain take a day off, plan to run every other day, start with an easy 2 miles, walk if you need to, and try to keep it fun. I personally prefer the trail because I see all sorts of animals. Flushed 25 turkeys last week, scared the hell out of me, but it was pretty cool. The only other thing to think about is if you are forced to run on roads, all roads slope to some degree towards the ditch. Mix up what side you run on, (important: when you're not running into traffic be very careful!!!). My wife always ran into traffic and developed severe pain in her hip, and after all sorts of tests, and co-pays, we finally found a doctor that was also a runner, and he asked her what side of the road she ran on, and after a few more questions we had our answer.

So there you have it, congrats on quitting the chew. The pounds will drop off and you'll be posting a TR about some marathon in the future.

Good Luck,
Jay

[mnflyfish]

At this point I'd rather do 'laps' somewhere, rather than just heading out down the road. I think I can be more calculated and keep better track of my progress. Then after a while when I am in better shape, I can take to the trails and stuff.

oh - and I am also going to be doing my sit-up and push-up routines regularly, so I am not just relying on running here; but it is going to be the main focus of my program...

Don't focus so much on distance at this point, look more at getting your heart rate up for at least 30 minutes. Distance can be figured out later, then speed drills, etc. Right now it's more important to exercise for a reasonable amount of time in order to get your heart rate up and start burning the calories and building the endurance.

Once you can run at a decent clip(still being able to carry one a limited conversation) for 30 minutes, then start measuring distance. Then you can grab one of the training programs from the various running sites and start working towards some distance/time goal.

Good Luck,
Jay

[mnflyfish]

15-20 pounds is a bit of weight. Don't force yourself to lose it so quickly, eventhough you probably can- how old are you?

I second Viva's comment on a realitic time frame to loose the weight. Just starting a running program will help you drop a lot of weight but expect to hit your goal in a year. It might take a little less, I think you posted you're only 29, but don't beat your self up if it takes a while.

Also not mentioned but it's EXTREMELY important, drink fluids!!! A good judge is to weigh yourself before you take off for a run, then weigh yourself when you get back. I can't remember the ratio but I know you can find it at running.com, but you need to replace this fluid. Also watch your diet. I know I fell into the trap early, and still do from time to time, because you're buring through calories it's easy to bargin you way into a big old greasy burger and fries because you had an exceptionally good run, and do enjoy one now and then, but don't fool yourself because of a new activity level.

Good Luck,
Jay

[72Twenty]

Thanks you guys! I will be busy tonight, but want to start this week. I'm just excited becasue after finally getting over the tobacco, I'm ready to start over. I know it will take alot of dedication, but hopefully I will get 'addicted' to it in place of the tobacco.

[72Twenty]

Plus I live above 7,000 feet. That helps get you in shape a little faster...

[Vinman]

Re: the fluids, definitely make sure to stay hydrated, but bear in mind that a lot of the "formulas" yous ee for how much to drink actually turn out to be way too much. They're just starting to realize that a lot of the people who die in marathons die not from heat stroke or dehydration, but from overhydration -- they tend to be slow runners who drink at every station. Also bear in mind that, if time is not your main consideration, beer actually makes a pretty good sports drink.

CT has this right. Those people with hyponaturemia are typically the back of the packers who actually gain weight during a marathon. Not what you would typically expect. Also as far as drink choice goes, they are also probably the ones drinking only water during such an event.

The risk of hyponaturemia during shorter events, 5K, 10K, even 1/2 marathon are probably low.


And to answer yuor other question. Hamstring stretches.

[ctarmchair]

...

And to answer yuor other question. Hamstring stretches.

Vinman,

Are there particular hamstring stretches that you prefer? My own personal, completely unsupported bias is for ones that work the whole posterior chain -- for instance, either some of the basic hamstring stuff in "Power Yoga" or similar yoga practice or even weighted good mornings. I'd say I'm sort of anti towel stretch unless part of PNF or something similar that does involve firing the stretched muscles. I also do like bounced stretches on the theory that a lot of the situations that call for flexibility call for dynamic movement. But I'm aware that there's finally a lot of people looking at this rigorously and I'm not at all current.

Should have mentioned in one of my earlier responses that "Why We Run" by Bernd Heinrich [sp?] is both a great read in general and can give some good ideas in terms of training motivation. He has a very amusing anecdote re: his trying beer as a sports drink while training for an ultra. The idea that we evolved running down prey animals on the savannah makes a lot of sense to me, and I think is part of why trail running can be so magical. For the o.p., if you have a golf course or short hiking loop available, these can also be good while first getting into it in terms of scenery that keeps the whole thing fresh without worrying about either joint issues or bonking too far out. You'll find you can have days just like skiing or riding that end up becoming fodder for dreams later on.

[Vinman]

If you are into yoga, that is probably one of the best ways to incrase flexibility. For those of us that don't either aren't familiar with or don't like yoga the standard static stretches for the hamstrings and glutes are sufficient. PNF would be better but it takes a bit more effort and usually a partner.

I don't recommend ballistic stretching much. During ballistic stretching, the stretch reflex can actually prevent the muscle from lengthening. There are sensor within the muscle that sence how far and how fast a muscle stretches. If a muscle stretches too fast or too far it triggers these sensors to cause the muscle to contract as a protective mechanism. This can at times result in a muscle strain. So use those with a bit of caution.

There are 3 ham stretches that I use mainly

1: sit on the ground with legs out in front
tuck the sole of the right foot into the inner thigh of the left leg
keep back upright and abdominals tight
press the chest down towards the thighs while reaching forward towars the toes

you should feel this near the back of the knee

2: same as above with the left knee slightly bent, this will cause the stretch to be felt farther up towards the middle of the hamstring

3: lying on your back
right knee bent, sole of right foot flat on the floor
pull left knee up to the chest

you should feel this in the upper hams and or glutes and or groin.

[mnflyfish]

Re: the fluids, definitely make sure to stay hydrated, but bear in mind that a lot of the "formulas" yous ee for how much to drink actually turn out to be way too much. They're just starting to realize that a lot of the people who die in marathons die not from heat stroke or dehydration, but from overhydration -- they tend to be slow runners who drink at every station. Also bear in mind that, if time is not your main consideration, beer actually makes a pretty good sports drink.

The "formula" I was referring to is based on how much you loose during a run, I notice that in my short run I loose approx 1 pound of fluid (8 miles) and on a longer run it increases very fast. I forgot about this post so I haven't looked it up but it's a guage on how much fluid to take in during an event, be it a half marathon, full, endurance event, etc. But then there are those that take this too far. The yahoo wearing the fluid belt at the 5K always makes me laugh. Heck, unless it's unusually hot, I don't even bother with a water stop on a 5K, just too much chance of some idiot landing on my ankle to take a few sips of water I don't need. But I do run in one 5K that is run by the Jacob Page brewery and they have free beer at the water stop, and I'm all for that kind of sport drink!

Good Luck,
Jay