lazy ass illegals

[cj001f]

how dare anyone try to logically analzye the situation.

You mean like all of the people who've said it's really not that big a fucking problem and definitely not a crisis? And that the US has much bigger problems?! Oh, wait your county is 1/4 immigrant, as if that's some meaningful population

This is just like 'gay marriage' ANWR or any of a dozen other trumped up nonissues that people debate (har) and that politicians use to divide the electorate and get themselves elected.

[Lone Star]

Good point--definitely unthoughtful, and idiotic, to hate racists.

The thing is, hate is hate. Whether you're hating on someone for his culture, his race, his religion, or just because you don't like him, it's all the same. It's funny how hate is unacceptable if it's directed toward any group of people protected by the PC police. Perfectly fine if you're directing it toward southerners, rednecks, republicans, or people you disagree with on the internet.

[Dexter Rutecki]

No, you're wrong.

[Cyber Cop]

Hate is not hate, granted hate is a very negative thing, but hating, someone for a choice they made ie polotics, beliefs, religion, is different than hating people for an aspect of their lives they have no control over, ie- skin color. I dislike a lot of you right wingers political beliefs, but to call that hate is stupid.
I don't hate you, but I damn well don't agree and I'm gonna let you know it and call you a dumbass, cause you don't have to be such a dumbass.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Summit, your logic doesn't make any sense, and isn't worthy of the term. You haven't responded to any of the facts in the debate, because you can't. When you learn to treat the issue logically, then you can take a reasoned position, but you haven't done that.
To say that i'm promoting some sort of relativism in this is ironic, since it's you who choose to (by necessity) ignore the facts and what they logically dictate.

[spindrift]

you can ignore everything else.

Care to enumerate the everything elses? The one most people try to hide behind is some flavor of the "crushing economic burden" ploy, which to anyone who has a clue about finance and economics is clearly a truckload of BS. Even if there is a modest net economic burden (which I doubt), fretting over it would be like the captain of the Titanic worrying about getting the linens wet when the iceberg hit.

The next most popular seems to be "crime" issues of various flavors - to which the easiest and most obvious solutions are exactly the ones spurned by the people raising the issue. Where's the logic in that?

I sure don't see hate-mongering racists hiding behind every bush. However, I do see racism (or more charitably, a subtle fear of those who are different) as that little wedge that makes people susceptible to illogical emotional arguments presented by selfish ideologues.

Wake up and smell the coffee. The political players hyping this issue are doing so simply because they can. Part of why they can is that little bit of bigotry and fear that causes people to turn off the skeptical and analyitical parts of their brains. And when this issue is on the front page, other issues are not...and ta-da, "Mission Accomplished"

[Lone Star]

No, you're wrong.

Nuh-uh!!

I asked a buddy of mine what he has to say about all of this and he said:

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

And there's the answer. We gots to keep folks from fearing living in a country where ALL people are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[mr_gyptian]

Love the TGR logic brigade contorting themselves to avoid acknowledging the 300 pound gorilla named racism sitting in the corner--shocked, shocked they are, that anyone brings up racism as a cause of this xenophobia! Can't be!
Buncha no brain, reactionary tools.

little late to the party Dex? must've been caught at the tailor getting your chicken suit ready for the summer protest season. no matter.

how have any of us been xenophobic regarding being against an illegal worker's "right" to protest for fair treatment under a country's constitution they are not protected by? seems like common sense, not racism.

of course, who am I to talk to you about rationale, logic, or common sense. you wear a chicken suit in public and to date have the greatest single off the handle response to being made fun of by a maggot.

prozac anyone?

[Cyber Cop]

Nuh-uh!!

I asked a buddy of mine what he has to say about all of this and he said:

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

Yeah, well I had a little chat with your buddy too, and all he did was touch my wiener and say "tell your mommy you will not."

[Dexter Rutecki]

WTF are you talking about, gyptian?
Again, use common sense and logic, please. I didn't say anyone here was motivated by racism, but to claim that the issue is unrelated is blindly stupid. As usual, Summit and crew have ignored what's actually true in this debate in favor of their own cherry-picked, anecdotal version of the topic. BTW, some of us believe in freedom of assembly regardless of national origin or immigration status.
And to foolishly engage you in your diversionary tactics, what was my off the handle response to being made fun of? I think you're assuming some things to be true that are only the product of Summit County storytelling. How appropriate.

[summit]

You mean like all of the people who've said it's really not that big a fucking problem and definitely not a crisis? And that the US has much bigger problems?!

Sweet! We are only allowed to talk about the biggest problem. Nothign else matters! Everyone put all your other shit on hold while the Iraq debacle is debated ad nauseum... AGAIN...

No other issue may be debated or addressed until we solve the quagmire in Iraq... this could take a while...

Care to enumerate the everything elses?

I did:

[commenting on the Viva & Tin Woodsman's discussion of the class/education issue]

I heard this on the radio a few days ago and thought it was particularly well done.

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/s...200604285.html

AI RYSSDAL: More than anything else, those protests Monday are meant to keep the heat on Congress. The Senate hasn't been able to agree on a plan. And the House has it's own thoughts about what to do. But the questions are the same for everyone. Should we send illegal aliens back? Or should we offer undocumented workers amnesty. And a chance to become citizens? Commentator Ben Barber says we're looking at this the wrong way.
BEN BARBER: Maybe the right question about immigration is who pays. For the wall. For health and school for immigrant kids. For what it takes to treat immigrants like humans, even if they don't have papers.

Right now it's us, the American taxpayers who pay the bills for the schools and emergency rooms. It's us who make up taxes that immigrants don't pay for those services that make their lives here possible.

Truth is, the real beneficiaries of immigration, legal or otherwise, ought to be paying the costs. That would be the companies that get illegal workers to do low-wage work for big-time profits. Only it's us that make the profits possible. Because it's us who pay the social costs.

The dirty little secret of our private-market sector is capitalism has a socialist heart. Companies take the profits, but they spread the invisible social costs across the backs of American taxpayers.

It's an old capitalist habit in democracies: socialize risk, privatize profit. Let the taxpayers take care of all the invisible infrastructure, what economists call "externalities," but keep the profits for the shareholders.

Since most of us don't even recognize corporate socialism, we don't blame the companies, we blame the immigrants.

"See what's it's costing us for you to work here!" we say. "Go home!"

But it's not the immigrants who are getting the free ride — they're just answering the siren call of a job. It's the legal businesses who draw the "illegal aliens" across the border and then wait for America to pay the price tag.

When the wall came down on the Soviet border, state socialism died. Wouldn't it be an irony if we put a wall up on the Mexican border because corporate socialism has been reborn here in the USA?

KAI RYSSDAL: Ben Barber teaches at the University of Maryland. He also runs the non-profit Democracy Collaborative

I think one reason this thread goes on so long is one side of the argument only wants to point out the problems illegals cause. The other side of the argument onyl wants to point out the cause of problems. (Disregarding the "let everyone in, there is no problem" morons).

To summarize from the thread:

Problems caused:
1. Illegals pass from Mexico to USA and back almost at will in great #s.
2. Illegals work for less than legal immigrants and citizens, depressing wages.
3. Illegals not knowing OR LEARNING English create a great burden on public services that are obliged to serve everyone.
4. Illegals use publicly available services and government services, burdening them while not putting back in.
5. Exploitation and victimization of illegals by employers and criminals (elaborated below).
6. Danger to society from illegals (elaborated below, don't scream yet).

Beyond the conflict between native born citizens and illegals, there is also strife between legal immigrants and naturalized citizens over culture/language issues (actually quite common) and wages.


5* Many illlegals are suckered by coyotes, assholes who take their money to "safely get them to the USA." This often involves very unsafe travel:airtight trucks in SouthWest weather, no seatbelts, and illegals are abandoned by cayotes at first hint of trouble.

I've lived a lot of places including California and Texas. I remember the weekly news stories on the truck full of illegals that overturned killing a dozen (oh wait that still happens in collorado. I also remember the stories of dozens of illegals found dead of exposure in sealed rail cars and box trucks.

Upon arrival illegals may be bullied into paying into debt for the trip leading to indentured servitude (including sex slavery in some cases).

Employers can work illegals in poor conditions for depressed wages with no hope of redress of greivance for the work. The potential for abuse is obvious and the abuse is abundant.

6* Illegals, there first action in the country beign to break the law, are fugitives and therefor a danger to themselves and others when presented with certain trouble.

I'm just going to put two local examples here where illegals endangered the public and hurt themslevs because being illegal pushed them to extreme action:

Example 1: Fire/Police/EMS were called to a wreck on I-70 Glenwood Canyon. Drunk illegals crashed their truck (luckily not into anyone). Rumors of ICE (INS) activity in the area had all the ilelgals on edge. When EMS and Police showed, the illegals who were still walking tried to run and two of them jumped off the elevated highway falling 80ft (somehow surviving, we should get them skiing). One of them had a gun (did not use).

Example 2: During a snowstorm this winter, a van full of illegals broke down on the I-70 Eisenhower Tunnel approach. Rather than risk capture the illegals scattered down the snowy embankment or through the Eisenhower tunnel leading to injuries and a considerable use of county resources.

In those examples nobody else was hurt too, but that is often not the case.

Additional risks come from: No health inspection, no vaccination requirement (lowers herd immunity), no background check, no basic education on US society/law.

Causes problems (no order):
1. Low Border Security - Not enough to control passage but enough that illegals pay cayotes, cross at dangerous areas, cross through dangerous terrain/weather.
2. Low paying jobs that take advantage of illegals are still are better than what the illegal could get at home, especially without societal overhead like taxes, insurance, etc.
3. Businesses are eager and willing to hire illegals at depressed wages.
4. Counterfit ID is apparently easy to obtain.
5. Businesses that might not otherwise hire illegal are hard pressed to determine the authenticity of documents.
6. Poor economic opportunity in Mexico versus US.
7. Poor public services in Mexico versus US.
8. Poor educational opportunity in Mexico versus US.
9. Little to no detterence due to a broken system that doesn't enforce laws and lacks other laws.
10. Successful lobbying and existing hispanohablantes have altered public and government structures to facilitate illegals who speak spanish (versus any other non-english langauge).
11. Existing system for entry into the US is far more difficult when the above issues, causes, and motivations are taken into account.

Solutions:
Address the 11 causes above (I'm sure someone will come up with some causes I've missed)... easier said than done.

I'm sure that post was missed by several...

[summit]

It's not all about race, just most of it. Anyone who disagrees is protecting the racists. Thats' the way it is and I'm not going to provide any facts or logical arguments to back up my position. Only a rationalist would ask for such evidence.

Hmmmm.... OK.... commentary from the Bostonian... can you get any farther from the problem?

BTW, some of us believe in freedom of assembly regardless of national origin or immigration status.

Really? Notice that nobody stopped or interfered with the protesters? Did you have a point here?

[cj001f]

Sweet! We are only allowed to talk about the biggest problem. Nothign else matters! Everyone put all your other shit on hold while the Iraq debacle is debated ad nauseum... AGAIN..

Not surprised you can't comprehend the difference between 'big' and 'biggest' and no Iraq isn't the biggest problem. Illegals cause 'problems' because they further strain our failing social infrastructure. Legal immigrants provide the same strains - language, wage depression, government burden, blah blah. Like every other debate we come up with some laundry list to treat the symptom in an acceptable manner so the problem persists - but mostly it's so people can take pleasure in calling each other morons and pontificating.

[Tippster]

And a retarded thread gets retardeder....

[Cyber Cop]

Better send 2 short buses for this one.

[Tippster]

[cj001f]

Better send 2 short buses for this one.

Can't have the 'tards getting in fights

[Cyber Cop]

^^^ where did you get that photo. If that gets around the interweb i'm gonna kick your ass you donkey raping shit eater.

[mr_gyptian]

Can't have the 'tards getting in fights

windowlickers duuuude.

[Blurred]

And a retarded thread gets retardeder....

that's why I bailed a few pages ago.

I learned something though....

You can't convince a retard to quit being retarded. If you keep trying, you're a retard too.

(now playing along just to piss the retards off, that's the real fun)

[Tippster]

Dude - there are two things that are always funny: Retards and farting.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Hmmmm.... OK.... commentary from the Bostonian... can you get any farther from the problem?

Wake up, Mcfly, c'mon, you can do it [/slapping upside an ignorant little head]. Aren't you embarassed, at all, making nonsensical arguments like this--especially on the heels of your supposed endorsement of all that is logical?? Summit, HOW THE FUCK DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE??? If one doesn't live right in the middle of a problem, one's statements are automatically invalid? How fucking stupid are you? That's what someone told you logic is? You need to take an ethics/logic class, and pay attention when they go over fallacies (if you are able to understand).
And for the record, I live in a city that's more diverse than Boston--or where you live, gringo. Not that that's relevant, dumbass.

Really? Notice that nobody stopped or interfered with the protesters? Did you have a point here?

Now for reading comp, try to follow along, I'll avoid big words as much as possible, and speak in an affected pseudo-Texas drawl--the less gifted seem to be able to get that a bit easier, y'hear?
Here's what I was responding to:

how have any of us been xenophobic regarding being against an illegal worker's "right" to protest for fair treatment under a country's constitution they are not protected by? seems like common sense, not racism.

So yes, I had a point, but you didn't bother reading carefully enough to understand that I was indeed responding to someone who called into question their right to assemble, as others have here.
God, you're just not very smart.
When you get tired of being wrong, you can just stop posting.

[Z]

Yeah, well I had a little chat with your buddy too, and all he did was touch my wiener and say "tell your mommy you will not."

ha! awesome.

[Pow4Brains]

Dude - there are two things that are always funny: Retards and farting.

Pull my finger.

I am so glad I checked back to see where this thread went.
Nice work Lone Star

[Tourette Dude]

Bump....

This topic is going to get played up and down in the coming year.

Being concerned about illegal immigration and its effects on domestic wages and utilization of resources does not equate to racism in my mind. It is a legal and economic issue more than anything else.