lazy ass illegals

[The AD]

I don't even want to get into the other issues, but one thing I just don't understand is why it bugs people that there are a lot of people in the U.S. who speak Spanish rather than English as their primary language. Seriously, who the fuck cares?

[mr_gyptian]

only that speaking spanish as your primary language is one of the largest causes of being poor and staying poor, and your children growing up to be poor. thereby meaning our taxes will be supporting them. Other than that, no problem here.

[Cono Este]

This is not about wether you like mexicans or not. DO not fall for that racial shit these NeoLIbs try trapping you with.. It is about law and order. There are probably a billion people on this earth that would glady come here if we just opened the door for them. Should we? Why just mexicans? Why do you discriminate? Lets offer the same opportunity to a couple of hundred million chinese and see how long it takes our country to buckle under the weight.

I immigrated here legally, so should they. It is not that freaking hard, in fact it was made harder for me being a canook/brit.

I have a civil judgement against a chinese immigrant who is using 22 social security numbers. I have found my money, but it is hidden in accounts with fraudulent ss numbers. there is not much i can do but spend more money on lawyers. It sucks for some of us when the govt does not enforce these laws.

here is a good llink to why nobody in washington wants to address this issue.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...ret_stash.html

[skiing-in-jackson]

This is not about wether you like mexicans or not. DO not fall for that racial shit these NeoLIbs try trapping you with.. It is about law and order.

I'm going to a party in an hour where 99% of the people (probably 100% of the 50 or so people) of the people will be illegal aliens. I have deep repect for the person who invited me, and I love his family.

This person is a hard worker and a great individual- who contributes nothing to society. Both children were born for free, free medical care, attend the schools, and pays no taxes. We can't afford health care for our own citizens, yet millions of people like yet my friend gets a free ride.

I'm not a racist like many would have you think, but something needs to be done before our country implodes under the financial weight of this burden.

PS- I'm really looking forward to the food! It is ging to be a rager! More about the party later.

[spindrift]

but something needs to be done before our country implodes under the financial weight of this burden.

You seem like a nice enough guy. However, you, and others, should pay more attention to reality and less to Michael Savage & friends. They are masters of propaganda. If you think the biggest issues facing our country are costs due to illegal immigrants, because these guys say so, you are guilty of not engaging your brain.

Just playing around on the back of an envelope (literally) it looks to me as though dishing out a sum as large as $10K in services per year to every "illegal immigrant" - every last man, woman and child - would cost us less than we are spending in Iraq. That's not even giving any credit for underpaid economic contribution (ie the view that as a society we are in fact ripping off the current pool of illegal immigrants). And there are plenty of other things we waste money on. Enough that worries about any possible net negative economic impact of illegal immigrants don't even seem worth putting on the hot list.

Plenty of decent people seem to be getting caught up in an issue that has been inflated and brought to the forefront to make American citizens take their eyes of the real issues that pose far greater risks to the US. Everyone in the US has been invited to join in a hysteria based on fear mongering - economic, ethnic, and racial. Don't be a sucker.

Instead, keep your eyes on the ball. Ask what is happening in Iraq and why? What is the inevitable fate of the dollar due to Bush's economic policies? What is the resulting impact to US economic and political clout relative to China, India, etc.? And what will that do to your long term standard of living (including lift tickets...)? And your children's? Question whether you should worry more about the gutting of your civil liberties - and those of your neighbors - or more about that horror of horrors - underpaid illegal immigrants. How about healthcare in general? The environment?

Yeah, the issue of illegal immigrants should be addressed. But it should be done in a sensible, fair and prioritized way. And it should not even be on the table this year - except perhaps to begin to find a fair way to bring them into the mainstream of the economy and society.

For an interesting look at the circumstances of working poor (and many illegal immigrants fall into this category) read Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehernreich. She essentially went "under cover" to research the book. Her conclusions are fascinating. It is a quick read.

Oh yeah - one more quick back of the envelope thought. The maximum economic burden I can fabricate, probably unfairly high, as a result of illegal immigrants being here in America is a fraction (maybe 15%?) of the annual interest we pay on our national debt (just the federal government part). If you want to worry about crushing economic burdens, focus on the real deal. Don't be distracted by a false crisis...

[Will]

It is about law and order.
...
I have a civil judgement against a chinese immigrant who is using 22 social security numbers. I have found my money, but it is hidden in accounts with fraudulent ss numbers. there is not much i can do but spend more money on lawyers. It sucks for some of us when the govt does not enforce these laws.

Guess what? Law and Order is not working. We have these laws as a deterrent. We don't think there's anything morally wrong or socially condemnable about immigration, we just want them to do it through certain channels. But the laws are not deterring people and they're coming into this country through whatever channel available. Simply put: the laws are not working. So now what?

Does anyone really think we can throw out all the immigrants, build a fence, mine the borders, place guards in guard towers, etc.. etc..

More importantly, does anyone think we should?

Time and again I see the justification: "I just care about the law-breaking." Yet are you as righteous about other forms of law breaking? Especially ones where the sole motivation for the law is deterrence?
The law is not performing the task we created it to address. So the law needs to be changed. But first we need to ask, what is that task?

Are we trying to limit or stop all immigration? I don't think we can do this without incredibly disproportionate (and morally questionable) actions. So instead would we be happy simply redirecting all presently-illegal immigration into legal channels?

About your civil judgment. It sounds like you're in a lawsuit with a scam artist. What the hell does that have to do with an illegal cleaning floors at wall-mart? Or do all illegals have 22 fake SS numbers and $$$ hidden in multiple bank accounts?

Also, as for SiJ's "they don't contribute" comment. Did you read my first post? For one thing, I assume they rent a place. Thus, the landlord pays property taxes (which is used to calculate their rent). Second, the average illegal household pays more than $4,200 a year in federal taxes, for a total of nearly $16 billion. However, they impose annual costs of more than $26.3 billion, or about $6,950 per illegal household. This is because they're poor, not because they're illegal. About 43 percent, or $7 billion, of the federal taxes illegals pay go to Social Security and Medicare.

[skiing-in-jackson]

You seem like a nice enough guy.

Thanks I really am.

However, you, and others, should pay more attention to reality and less to Michael Savage & friends.

I never listen to that guy!

would cost us less than we are spending in Iraq.

Who brought Iraq into this? I didn't mention this.

the view that as a society we are in fact ripping off the current pool of illegal immigrants

I don't think that because someone comes here to pick lettuce, lay bricks or wash dishes that they are entitled to every concievable benefit allowed by our country. Most are paid market wages, sheer economics, pure market wages, and dishonest employeers choose not to pay taxes and keep the rest for themselves. The problems are broad and far reaching. Many Mexican workers I know are able to command a higher wage because they are good workers and are extremely dependable.

Enough that worries about any possible net negative economic impact of illegal immigrants don't even seem worth putting on the hot list.

This is a problem that needs to be dealt with now and not placed on the back burner- as is usual business with our government.

[spindrift]

You made a very strong statement about our country imploding under the "financial weight of this burden". I brought up Iraq because even under the most optimistic financial view I can conceive of with respect to Iraq, and the most financially pessimistic with respect to illegal immigrants - Iraq is by far the greater financial burden. As is the national debt. And the scale of the current account deficit. And so on. If you want to focus on the financial burdens that truly threaten our country, I submit that it is reasonable to focus on the biggest first. The illegal immigrant issue, while real and important, is a red herring with respect to much more threatening and pressing problems.

BTW - I agree with you that the problems are broad and far reaching. And complex. And hardly one-sided. Whatever solution is arrived at, if it is to endure it needs to be economically sensible and socially fair. Following in the footsteps of much of Europe and creating a set of very second class residents/"citizens" is almost certainly neither. At least from my point of view.

[Cono Este]

Guess what? Law and Order is not working. We have these laws as a deterrent. We don't think there's anything morally wrong or socially condemnable about immigration, we just want them to do it through certain channels. But the laws are not deterring people and they're coming into this country through whatever channel available. Simply put: the laws are not working. So now what?

Does anyone really think we can throw out all the immigrants, build a fence, mine the borders, place guards in guard towers, etc.. etc..

More importantly, does anyone think we should?

Time and again I see the justification: "I just care about the law-breaking." Yet are you as righteous about other forms of law breaking? Especially ones where the sole motivation for the law is deterrence?
The law is not performing the task we created it to address. So the law needs to be changed. But first we need to ask, what is that task?

Are we trying to limit or stop all immigration? I don't think we can do this without incredibly disproportionate (and morally questionable) actions. So instead would we be happy simply redirecting all presently-illegal immigration into legal channels?

About your civil judgment. It sounds like you're in a lawsuit with a scam artist. What the hell does that have to do with an illegal cleaning floors at wall-mart? Or do all illegals have 22 fake SS numbers and $$$ hidden in multiple bank accounts?

Also, as for SiJ's "they don't contribute" comment. Did you read my first post? For one thing, I assume they rent a place. Thus, the landlord pays property taxes (which is used to calculate their rent). Second, the average illegal household pays more than $4,200 a year in federal taxes, for a total of nearly $16 billion. However, they impose annual costs of more than $26.3 billion, or about $6,950 per illegal household. This is because they're poor, not because they're illegal. About 43 percent, or $7 billion, of the federal taxes illegals pay go to Social Security and Medicare.

Will, did you read the link I posted? You should, the article actually supports some of your arguements. The govt will not enforce our laws or prosecute Social Security/ identity Fraud because they are making 5.7 billion a year off it. Alot of it at the expense of the illegals, and us.

How does this apply to me? or you? We play by the rules, many of these people do not. My example is one that could be aplied to every illegal. Nobody even knows who they are? They could kill someone and get away with it. It renders our entire system useless.

According to that article, 1 in 50 americans is having their SS number used by someone else. Your credit trashed, god knows what else. You dont even even have the legal right to run a credit report on others using your ss numbers. I hope you dont need your ss number sold in a back alley to an illegal to learn the hard way. Especially when the govt knows someone else is using it. Enforcing these laws would not only help me, but make it harder for corps to knowingly hire illegals. Or do you think an illegal is entitled to all these fraudulent forms of identifications, maybe even yours?

read that article, and you will realize that the average stooge like us, is being seriouly screwed, by everyone. Shit the govt and the illegals are practically in bed together. They all win, at our expense.

My personal story is a long one. Your head would actually spin if i told you it all. What it has taught me is that the average taxpayer is just cannon fodder.

[LAN]

I guess it depends on your location in the US. In southern AZ, the Illegal Immigrants placed a mich higher burden on the hospitals than un-insured americans.

How do you figure that the bill for an ininsured individual and an illegal immigrant are different?

[P_McPoser]

How do you figure that the bill for an ininsured individual and an illegal immigrant are different?

They don't, the bills are the same, it's the portions attributed to each group that change with location.

Irregardless, if my tax dollars must be used to pay for "free" medical care, I'd personally rather see it go to poor americans than foreign criminals.

[edg]

Fucking irregardless. What's wrong with regardless?

edg

[bklyn]

Fucking irregardless. What's wrong with regardless?

edg

Seems as if more money needs to be funneled toward education.

[P_McPoser]

Fucking irregardless. What's wrong with regardless?

edg

Seems as if more money needs to be funneled toward education.

It's okay. I'm an engineer.

[Will]

Will, did you read the link I posted? You should, the article actually supports some of your arguements. The govt will not enforce our laws or prosecute Social Security/ identity Fraud because they are making 5.7 billion a year off it. Alot of it at the expense of the illegals, and us.

Sorry. When you talked about "enforcing laws" I thought you were referring only to immigration laws. Not laws about identity theft. I thought your ID theft example was an anecdote intended to prove something like: "I got screwed by an illegal immigrant scam artist, therefore all illegal immigrants are scam artists out to screw you."

My response was intended to point out that the immigration laws we have are not accomplishing their intended tasks (deterrence), and that stricter enforcement probably wouldn't help either. Or rather, that we'd have to do unethical things for enforcement to be successful. How bad would we have to make it here to stop people from wanting to immigrate?

So we need think: what are we hoping to accomplish with our immigration policy? Keeping in mind that we can't outsource menial service sector jobs, and that people who hold those jobs will necessarily be an overall drain on our society. Not because they're immigrants (legal or illegal), but becuase those jobs don't pay enough money. Born and raised americans who work those jobs are an equal (or perhaps greater) drain on the gov't financial resources.

[mc_roon]

I don't even want to get into the other issues, but one thing I just don't understand is why it bugs people that there are a lot of people in the U.S. who speak Spanish rather than English as their primary language. Seriously, who the fuck cares?

You obviously dont live in an area where every fast-food resturant is staffed by people who cant speak english. I cant even count the number of times i give an order and all I recieve in return is a blank stare. There are times I feel i would get farther playing pictionary then talking. And, its not just fast food joints, its every place that involves human contact. If they come to this country illegally, they cannot demand that we change out culture to fit their needs. They ned to adapt to OUR culture and language. Im not saying that they need to leave their culture at the border(I love mexican food) but demanding that we cater to their needs when they dont pay for shit, fuck that.

[Jer]

Get to work, gringo - your Mohawk skills are severely lacking.

[summit]

Fuck you for posting this, and fuck the hate.

Lazy ass, my ass. Like your neighborhood is full of freeloading Mexicans. They're here to clean your toilets, wash your dishes, haul your crap, anything for a buck. They walked hundreds of miles across hell to do it, or paid some scumbag a lot of whatever to put them through hell to avoid other hells getting here. And now they have to listen to this. They shouldn't learn English, so the stupid spews are silent to them, as they try to survive in a basic way.

As if you even have any Mexicans nearby. I find that this stupidity is almost always rooted in ignorance or the reality of things. Your view is probably through the ugly little lens of Fox and Rush. White men profiting from hate, and distracting you from how you are being duped and "exploited" on a daily basis.

M
O
R
O
N

I'd wager you don't have much sense of it either.

I'm sick of the "Illegals do the jobs Americans won't do" bullshit.
The truth is:

Illegals do the jobs that citizens/legal immigrants won't do for the wages you can get away paying illegals.

I've watched this happen. In Summit County in the 80s many of the low paying housekeeping/groundskeeping/maintainence jobs were done by college students on a semester off. Now they are almost exclusively illegals. The complex in which I used (managed by a Vail Associates subsidiary) lost 2/3rds of it's employees one day due to an INS raid. I don't expect an H2B Visa to learn English, but their employers do. The H2B guest workers from non-english speaking countries invariably have a better command of english than the illegals. It is true that because illegals pay little to no taxes and use far more than they contribute, what is actually happening is that business is profiting off of cheap labor while expecting the taxpayer to bear the burden. It is Capitalism with Socialist heart.

[P_McPoser]

It is Capitalism with Socialist heart.

Now, a pat on the back for anyone who can indentify the date\situation where this idea was taken to the max (impeachment\overthrow attempt) (think Henry Ford)

[Blurred]

I'm in agreement with Savage in that our country is defined by borders, language and culture. If you're going to live here, learn to speak English so you can understand what I want on my hamburger. Language protocol is very important.

I too get tired of people saying they're doing jobs we wouldn't. That's bullshit. Employers don't need to offer a decent wage when you have millions of illegal criminals willing to do it for pennies on the dollar. Then, what those people earn, they send the money to Mexico, further weakening our economy. They do put billions into social security, which they'll never see again, but they also have access to medicare to help even that out.

Illegal aliens are criminals, bottom line. Funny how they broke the law to get here, and are now protesting for rights from our government.

[cantunamunch]

Then, what those people earn, they send the money to Mexico, further weakening our economy.

This is complete BS. Every dollar in cash that goes to Mexico or any other country weakens their economy. It is not equivalent to sending pesos; it is a coupon to buy US goods or assets thereby benefiting US export.

The problem is that the Chinese have sent too many yuan here in cash by financing our buying sprees.

[mc_roon]

This is complete BS. Every dollar in cash that goes to Mexico or any other country weakens their economy. It is not equivalent to sending pesos; it is a coupon to buy US goods or assets thereby benefiting US export.

Im sorry, WHAT!?!?!! It weakens their economy. So, the 17 BILLON that goes out of our country just to mexico to private parties each year hurts. Owww, i can here them complaining from here. Yeah, that makes perfect sense; money flowing into a country hurts it. Remember what happened when Congress tried to add a 5%tax on international wire transfers(only if the person couldnt produce proof that they werent illegal)??? If it was really hurting their home country, why are they going to protest tomorrow?

If they did manage to tax at 5% of the estimated 17 Billion(and that is JUST to mexico) that would be 850,000,000 in revenue. That would go a long way to reducing all the hostility that many, including myself, have toward illegal immigrants that are a drain on the economy.

[cloudpeak]

If they did manage to tax at 5% of the estimated 17 Billion(and that is JUST to mexico) that would be 850,000,000 in revenue. That would go a long way to reducing all the hostility that many, including myself, have toward illegal immigrants that are a drain on the economy.

The $320 billion and climbing cost for the Iraq War is a much bigger issue.

The immigration issue is more in the category of a distraction, rather than the major drain on our economy. The war and the deficit far outpace immigration as a problem. The hoopla about "illegal aliens" is a rather cynical way to play on people's fears about foreigners who look and talk differently so that people don't notice how irresponsible this administration has been on a number of issues, including the deficit, warrantless searches, and Iraq. It's a good political move because the immigration issue has successfully blown those other topics, which the Administration would rather not talk about, off the front page.

[Cono Este]

The $320 billion and climbing cost for the Iraq War is a much bigger issue.

The immigration issue is more in the category of a distraction, rather than the major drain on our economy. The war and the deficit far outpace immigration as a problem. The hoopla about "illegal aliens" is a rather cynical way to play on people's fears about foreigners who look and talk differently so that people don't notice how irresponsible this administration has been on a number of issues, including the deficit, warrantless searches, and Iraq. It's a good political move because the immigration issue has successfully blown those other topics, which the Administration would rather not talk about, off the front page.

BUsh likes Mexicans. It conforms with his Christian/minority political base. And if youd read my link youd know that the govt makes 5.7 billion a year off them. They hardly want to get rid of them.

11 million undocumented people, free to do as they please with no accountability is serious. Maybe when one steals your ss number, or hits you with no insurance, you might understand why some form of accountability is needed to maintain law and order in society.

Find an Iraq war thread to rant, there are plenty of them. Expatriating billions a year from this country, Identity/SS fraud, Entering the country illegally, and generally disregarding all laws and customs of our country is a serious issue when were are talking in the millions.

Gov't is failing us regualr folk in more ways than one.

[Blurred]

Fuck you for posting this, and fuck the hate.

Read what I just quoted. Full of irony and ignorance. Not much different than the kneejerk, bleeding heart, race card-down-and-out-poor-guy, blind bullshit you usually post. Do you ever factor logic into your thinking process, or does that underdog hippy mentality dominate every electrical impulse in your brain?

However, I do agree that calling them 'lazy' is rather ignorant.