Iran Nuclear Situation (Recent SCARY Developments NSR)

[soul_skier]

i asked my poly-sci teacher about the situation today, and he told me that he can guess at what is going on, but there are so many factors in play in this situation that the average person can specualte and understand it on a broad spectrum, but will have no chance of 100% knowing everything involved with the situation. Therefore, i will agree with massliberal in saying that it is the combination of everyone's imput adn knowledge that will give a big picture, and since 99% of us don't know enough to really create an truly informed opinon, we shouldn't flame at each other. I may not agree with what you say, but i will defend your right to say it!

[DisArray]

And your smarmy "you're a french idiot for even thinking that" replies to everyone on this board are what exactly? endearing?

There you go again, putting words in my mouth that aren't mine. Why don't you actually read my posts before you say shit like that. I've never claimed to be a nice guy BTW. Oh and thanks for admitting that you feel superior to anyone's opinion who you don't agree with. At least you are honest.

[bbirtle]

1. There is no international constitution with a second ammendment that says : None shall infringe on a crackpot despot's right to bear nuclear arms.

So you're armed to the teeth and hate your neighbor but you prevent your neighbor from buying a guy by shooting him when he tries... But as a guy on the armed to the teeth side afraid of my crazy neighbor, I can agree with this argument. I'm just saying the people of Iran probably don't, and if we're going with that then we need to come out and say it instead of trying to go through the UN. Because in the scheme of blind international judgement, they haven't done anything wrong to build a weapon that a lot of other nations already have.

2. They signed an agreement, the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

I'm really surprised they don't just back out of it. If they did that, wouldn't the UN be forced legally to drop all their involvement? Since then it would be a militeristic dispute between a few member countries (US + Israel + Western Europe vs. Iran)? (Not a loaded question I'm actually curious and don't know the answer.)

3. Don't see Russia getting rid of *all*their nukes... you think we should?

No, we need to defend ourselves, so we can't get rid of all the guns.

But America's action abroad have been deplorable and alarming since 2001. Granted not all bad, but with our World Police force this corrupt and just do not trust u.s. to do a good job in Iran. WE are ~currently~ testing and building new types of nuclear bombs. WE are ~currently~ performing a massive upgrade of our Soviet-era nuclear weaponry. WE ~currently~ have more missles than anybody else combined and are promising to do nothing to reduce them. WE ~currently~ have a policy of torture (not growling dogs, rather stripping them naked, sexually humiliating them, then beating them to death), WE ~currently~ take people off the streets randomly that we suspect being baddies and put them in jail outside of any system of law - sometimes we make mistakes like the German guy you may have missed on FoxNEWS.

I want to see all that stuff STOP before I start trusting our country again as having moral superiority, or ability to pull off another war in the Middle East that will not end up like Iraq.

...National security and international relations isn't a game of fairness and hippy love...

No, but there are situations where there is a clear course of action that would solve the problem (e.g. Bosnia, WWII) and then there's taking military action might solve a problem (Hussain, Taliban) but will spawn others that become worse in the long run (Iraq 2006, Pakistan).

I don't know if there IS a good solution. It seems like any technology, nuclear technology will mature and get easier to implement and 100, 200 years from now any country that wants it will be able to easily get it. That's some pretty scary stuff. But Iran's rich as fuck and it seems like sanctions won't work. I've seen a few news blurbs that warned military long distance strikes would not work either - it's too easy for them to build deeper and hide better. A full out invasion a la Iraq is just unthinkable for a lot of reasons.

What are you guys proposing to do about this situation? (Not a loaded question I'm actually curious and don't know the answer.)

[bbirtle]

I heard French people do nothing but smoke cigarettes and have gay sex with each other.

No they roll over and lose a lot of wars too.

I was with a German friend of mine and we were doing some good old French bashing the other day. "I mean look at when you guys invaded them," I said "they lasted like 5 days or something." We looked it up though and appearently they lasted 5 weeks from invasion to surrender. Tough bastards them Frenchies!

On another occasion this same friend says to me "it's really funny. we beat them in two wars in the last 100 years alone and they still like us better than they like you!"

All the British expats and tourists here, of course, never miss an opportunity to bash the yokals.

Of course, the French in Chamonix are none to happy of all of that. But meh, whatayagonnado.

[MassLiberal]

I never said that I feel superior to people I don't agree with, I just feel superior to assholes like yourself.

[MassLiberal]

There you go again, putting words in my mouth that aren't mine. Why don't you actually read my posts before you say shit like that. I've never claimed to be a nice guy BTW. Oh and thanks for admitting that you feel superior to anyone's opinion who you don't agree with. At least you are honest.

Really?? You've never made generalizations that would cause others to think you're a complete ass?

They say if you're not a liberal by the age of 20, then you have no heart. If you are not a conservative by the age of 30, you have no brain. The question is then- Why are liberals so stupid?

WalMart is a great American company. People who hate WallMart are a bunch stuck-up leftist wanna-be neo-communist bastards who hate capitalism and hate America. Everything they know about WallMart has probably been learned from their peers, by reading Chomsky or watching some propagandist neo-documentary style film. Nevermind that intellectually it is all a bunch of garbage. If they had a sale of Che Guevera tee-shirts at WallMart, I bet half of them would go there just to buy one. Hypocrisy.

[Tippster]

If we bomb them unilaterally then they have the internationally accepted right to defend themselves - ala Kuwait and her allies circa 1991. If we do that then Iran has justification to bomb us back, whenever or however possible - we legitimize their response, maybe not in our eyes but in a huge chunk of the world's. That's what should be taken under consideration. Merely taking out a site or two will not end their nuclear program... this is no Iraq. Iran has a much higher standard of living/education/infrastructure level than anyone else in that part of the world.

It bears repeating - the only nuclear power to ever use a nuclear weapon as intended is the USA. Nobody expects to win a nuclear war. Iran's leaders will not commit suicide merely to wipe Israel off the map, because as soon as the missiles are in the air the Israelis will launch and it's done.

Imagine you had G. Gordon Liddy living next to you - armed to the teeth and scowling at you and your friends every time you played the music too loud. Then imagine him coming out and cleaning his guns on his porch every time you wash your car. You'd be a little worried too, and would likely arm yourself despite the fact that Liddy thinks he's right and you're wrong.

...and I'm still waiting to hear how we are the greatest free-est people ever on the planet. The Swiss are pretty fucking free, and they're certainly well armed. Look it up.

[Squatch]

What bugs me most is that people hold nuclear anything as The Biggest Threat. When is an atomic bomb really any worse that the systematic carpetbombing of a city? People talk about the horrors of hiroshima but not Dresden. The same goes for nuclear power: 3 Mile Island was a national horror, and yet we allow hundreds of coal-burning plants to slowly poison us. Mostly contained nuclear meltdowns pose much less of a threat than the very real damage we're inflicting to the environment via fossil fuels.

Nukes are nice and all, and certainly more scary with missles. However, it'd be far easier to drive a truck into a major city with a warhead than to bother assemblying a missle fleet. Iran (or any other similar country) getting nuclear weapons doesn't significantly increase its abilities to wage war/terror.

[mr_gyptian]

The used car salesman turned international political theorist?

Iran isn't aiming to annihilate itself by using a nuclear warhead unprovoked. I've already explained why in this thread, but if you insist on clinging onto wild projections which are based solely on the information you have gained from talk radio and Fox, be my guest, but you sound like an idiot. It's a lot more complicated than "they want the bomb to destroy our freedoms."

I'm sure they're not aiming to annihilate themselves by supporting terrorism either. however, that's exactly what's going to happen. Is it really that much of a stretch to imagine a fundamentalist islamic nation state practicing what it preaches? If you've got faith in their respect for human life, especially "infidel" lives, more power to you. How long do we stand by as a leader calls for the death of a nation that is one of our greatest allies?

again, their nukes aren't going to get to my doorstep.

I just thought the people whose doorsteps are in danger would give a rat's ass.

Mass, keep chugging Uncle Teddy's KoolAid. just make sure he's not driving you home. If you do, bring a life jacket.

[hemas]

Mr. Gyptian, I'm sure people get your point, even if you just post it once...

[mr_gyptian]

Mr. Gyptian, I'm sure people get your point, even if you just post it once...

that was fucking weird.

[MassLiberal]

I apologize for the career snipe gyptian, that was uncalled for. Political discussion can sometimes get me a little heated, and causes everyone to say things that they regret.

I'm not saying that Tehran isn't absolutely batshit crazy. But simply pointing out that using a nuclear weapon doesn't further the goals of the regime, and by dismissing them simly as looneys that want to destroy the world plays into their hands. They need to be dealt with, but it needs to be done carefully.

[mr_gyptian]

I apologize for the career snipe gyptian, that was uncalled for. Political discussion can sometimes get me a little heated, and causes everyone to say things that they regret.

I'm not saying that Tehran isn't absolutely batshit crazy. But simply pointing out that using a nuclear weapon doesn't further the goals of the regime, and by dismissing them simly as looneys that want to destroy the world plays into their hands. They need to be dealt with, but it needs to be done carefully.

that's why we would employ the tactical nukes. in the context of nuking, that is careful, right?

additionally, that attitude towards used car salesmen is precisely what allows me to make so much money. so, by all means, proceed and tell your friends how dimwitted used car salesmen are.

[hemas]

A nuke is a nuke, be it tactical or ballistic... and thus it would be a 1st strike... I'm gonna guess that you'd not like if there were severy sanctions set upon the US of A.

[Schmear]

When is an atomic bomb really any worse that the systematic carpetbombing of a city?

Radiation?

And I think the use of a nuclear weapon--even just one--represents for many the start of WWIII. Conventional explosives are psychologically more acceptable/merciful.

[Schmear]

WalMart is a great American company. People who hate WallMart are a bunch stuck-up leftist wanna-be neo-communist bastards who hate capitalism and hate America. Everything they know about WallMart has probably been learned from their peers, by reading Chomsky or watching some propagandist neo-documentary style film. Nevermind that intellectually it is all a bunch of garbage. If they had a sale of Che Guevera tee-shirts at WallMart, I bet half of them would go there just to buy one. Hypocrisy.

Ha ha. How did I miss this wonderful post the first time around?

There's a pretty simple reason not to shop at WalMart (that has nothing to do with class or politics): it represents the lowest common denominator shopping experience. Some of us actually appreciate taste and style. *throws boa over left shoulder*

But I digress.

[summit]

OK for those who are using innapropriate analogies to justify Iran having nukes... here is a more appropriate one:

This guy Will at the end of the block went crazy a while back. He took a bunch of people hostage and held them for a year. Over the years Will has snuck out and killed people here and there in and out of the neighborhood for disagreeing with him. He keeps telling everyone what they can and cannot say/do in their own houses when the subject is him and his beliefs. Some gal a block over drew a funny picture and her house was firebombed! Some gal wrote a critical book so Will put a mob hit out on her (the contract is still good)! Will blew up your cousins when they visited a neighbor Will was having a fued with. Will hired a gang of hoodlums to take over that guys house! A few years ago he went over to the Spanish subdivision and tossed a grenade into the community center, killing a bunch of people. There are countless other similar incidents! All this time Will continually says how he is going to murder you and your friends and neighbors because you don't think like him.

Will buys a howitzer and puts it in his front yard. Now he is saying your friends are gonna die very soon. Will wants to buy some ammo for that howitzer...

What bugs me most is that people hold nuclear anything as The Biggest Threat. When is an atomic bomb really any worse that the systematic carpetbombing of a city? People talk about the horrors of hiroshima but not Dresden.

True, but nobody carpet bombs or firebombs cities for the last 30-60 years... (well the Russians carpet shell cities...)

While many firebombing raids in WWII EACH accounted for more than all the people killed as a result of both atomic attacks, the psychological impact of one plane-one bomb-one city is undeniable as are the associated effects of a nudet beyond immediate explosion (flash burns, blindness, radiation).

The ENTIRE US bomber force today, even if it all took off at once for one target, couldn't deliver the same amount, or even weight of conventional bombs that were delivered in some WWII raids.

The same goes for nuclear power: 3 Mile Island was a national horror, and yet we allow hundreds of coal-burning plants to slowly poison us. Mostly contained nuclear meltdowns pose much less of a threat than the very real damage we're inflicting to the environment via fossil fuels.

AMEN, preach it brother

PS. 3 Mile Island horrified the nation, but it was no national horror. It ended up doing a lot of good as far as making things safer.

Nukes are nice and all, and certainly more scary with missles. However, it'd be far easier to drive a truck into a major city with a warhead than to bother assemblying a missle fleet. Iran (or any other similar country) getting nuclear weapons doesn't significantly increase its abilities to wage war/terror.

If you read the opening post or have watched the subject for the last 10 years, Iran IS building a ballistic missile force. Now they have one that can reach most of Europe.

Becoming a nuclear power significantly does increase you ability to wage war and HOW they can wage war + the risks they can take/have to worry about.

If nukes are so worthless why do you think they want one so badly that they are willing to risk a war to get one?

Power projection is a huge part of it.

[MassLiberal]

The whole neighborhood analogy is bogus. Any neighborhood is within a state which regulated by laws and is enforced as such.

The international arena is lawless and is based on loose pacts and treaties, which are non binding, to govern the system.

[DisArray]

You are right. I like this analogy more-

"See, there's three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes, Chuck. And all the assholes want to shit all over everything! So, pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes, Chuck. And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!"

[skieurmalade]

I think that the Nukes affect our true reasoning about as much as the Iraqi WMD's did- nothing more than an excuse to go and take care of the dirty work. Therefore, I don't think we should waste any more time on the nuclear issue and attempt to focus on why we want to go there. Is it just for the oil? I don't think so.

I think it has to do with the strategic occupation of multiple Stans and Irand and Iraq for the big showdown vs. China for Kazakhstan and region when the real oil scare hits.

Another reason for our timing is the rapid growth of the Euro Dollar and the threat of the oil industry making that switch and leaving ours to become a rupal.

While the nuclear debate is of course a concern that has been validated by sixty years of nervous political chaos, I feel that the only way we will put our people in the path of harm's way is if we commence this assault.

In addition I am fully in support of Iranian Uranium Enrichment because That can be a wonderful path for those devout muslims and bahais to enter into the 21st century that you and I know. But we all know that the country will be in smoky ruins well before any of those events transpire.

And don't forget who China's arming with anti-US specific weaponry!

[Phatstix]

Now, why cant the rest of the fucking idiots in this country that voted for them figure that out?

On the other hand, I woul like to see some of those billion dollar firecrackers weve been building for the last 50 years actually pay off

Spoken like a true liberal.

[skieurmalade]

mt baker skier you're a fucked up dude BUT...

the funny thing is that this is exactly the suppressed pre-pubescent mentality that has sank into the spiralling eyeballs of our leaders (goes down quite easily on the gen public if followed with a tablespoon of fear [telespoon(?)])

[Tippster]

And don't forget who China's arming with anti-US specific weaponry!

This bomb only kill Roundeye!

Btw - I got nothing from "rupal." Is that Ruble? Rupee? RuPaul? Oh, God.... it's RuPaul, isn't it.... Shit, we're fucked.

[skieurmalade]

fuck if I know- those old interplanetary signals are gettin picked up by the bong stem, methinks. I'm guessing ruble, though (specifically latvian perhaps?)

[MTT]

On a related note, did anyone watch 60 Min tonight? They had a special on Hannaford. The disconcerting part of the story is that there has been leakage of highly radioactive waste into the ground and there is now a very large plume of liquid waste in the ground heading for the Columbia river. I had not heard about this. Scary stuff?