Why is the industry still using field books for snow data, for the most part?

[Buzzworthy]

So you give me the finger and then tell me to be patient......

Not exactly the best way of bring me around to buying your new toy.

This is the finger:

This is "Hell yeah, stuff is coming together, kick ass" IMO:


Halsted, I can learn a lot from you and I have absolutley not ONE ill feeling toward you. This is a forum and I can play around a bit. I apologize that you took it that way.

meant in a previous post that I am sticking my tongue out at you now that things are coming together on something I have dreamed about, like you and your quests, i.e. your new field book. Just playing. And the devil finger dude was a "oh yeah, I am getting exicted".

I certainly did want to clear that up. Maybe those stupid little dudes on the side mean different things to people.

I am on your side. Do things in this market to help save lives.

I hope you can accept my apology of not coming across properly.

Ron
Buzz

[Buzzworthy]

Not exactly the best way of bring me around to buying your new toy.

WHOA!

Did I read the above correctly?

Maybe we can convert you after all.


Halsted, I look forward to meeting you once of these days. I hope to make ISSW, but my travel schedule is about to make my wife want to divorce me.

I will be at GIS in the Rockies on Sept 13, 2006 at Invesco Field in Denver.

Not sure what you are doing these days, but it only costs $25 to get in and take a look at all the GPS and GIS things happenig in your area.

[Hacksaw]

WHOA!

Did I read the above correctly?

Maybe we can convert you after all.


Halsted, I look forward to meeting you once of these days. I hope to make ISSW, but my travel schedule is about to make my wife want to divorce me.

I will be at GIS in the Rockies on Sept 13, 2006 at Invesco Field in Denver.

Not sure what you are doing these days, but it only costs $25 to get in and take a look at all the GPS and GIS things happenig in your area.

Don't get your hopes up. Since I'm not with CAIC any more, I wouldn't buy one of your $1,700 toys. And besides, I really like my fieldbooks. But, I'm sure Doug will convince Ethan that CAIC needs them.

I went to the "GIS in the Rockies," gig last year. That was a waste of my time.

I think I'll spend my time more productively....... Gee, I think the dog needs his teeth cleaned.

Halsted

[Hacksaw]

.....Maybe those stupid little dudes on the side mean different things to people.

I am on your side. Do things in this market to help save lives.

I hope you can accept my apology of not coming across properly.

Ron
Buzz

Lesson learned...

[Buzzworthy]

Lesson learned...

I apologize for something I feel I did not even do/say/mean and feel you misinterpreted a post of emoticons and you tell me lesson learned?


To each his own I guess.

[Hacksaw]

I apologize for something I feel I did not even do/say/mean and feel you misinterpreted a post of emoticons and you tell me lesson learned?

Yea, we both learned something.

[Buzzworthy]

Halsted, we are all on the same team.

Please don't forget that.

[Telenater]

I went to the "GIS in the Rockies," gig last year. That was a waste of my time.

Was it a waste of your time because you are not currently using GIS within your work and do not believe you will be within the near future?

Or, was it a waste because you do not have a skillset that made the discussions and applications easily understandable?

Or, do you believe that GIS is not an appropriate tool for snowpack stability analysis?

I ask these questions because GIS development is what I do, and I have found almost universally that if the subject can be made comprehensible to a user community, the value of GIS becomes apparent within any system that deals with spatial data.

[Hacksaw]

Was it a waste of your time because you are not currently using GIS within your work and do not believe you will be within the near future?

At the time we where not using any GIS stuff for our work, due to lack of funding and it wasn't necessary to bring home data.

Or, was it a waste because you do not have a skillset that made the discussions and applications easily understandable?

I'm not a tecno-wizz kid, but I do understand most GIS and GPS stuff. But, once again the CAIC lacked funding to even buy the most basic GPS stuff.

Or, do you believe that GIS is not an appropriate tool for snowpack stability analysis?

Snowpack stability analysis is better done with a shovel then with a Palmpilot gizzmo..... Besides, I don't know how you'd mount it on the end of a shovel shaft......

When you look at all the recent spatial variability snowpack studies, it all boils down to the fact that you can't trust just one snowpit. In order to do a good stability evaluation you need to dig A LOT of snowpits. And since we have a hard time just getting folks to dig ANY snowpits; what good is a few snowpits entered into a GIS system? I think GIS is a "interesting" tool for snow researchers. But, I don't see it as that valuable a tool for daily observer/forcaster who's out checking indicator slide paths or established study sites.

Halsted

[Telenater]

Snowpack stability analysis is better done with a shovel then with a Palmpilot gizzmo..... Besides, I don't know how you'd mount it on the end of a shovel shaft......

When you look at all the recent spatial variability snowpack studies, it all boils down to the fact that you can't trust just one snowpit. In order to do a good stability evaluation you need to dig A LOT of snowpits. And since we have a hard time just getting folks to dig ANY snowpits; what good is a few snowpits entered into a GIS system? I think GIS is a "interesting" tool for snow researchers. But, I don't see it as that valuable a tool for daily observer/forcaster who's out checking indicator slide paths or established study sites.

Halstead,

I don't think that anyone here has ever suggested that Buzz's data collector or any GIS could replace a snow pit as the primary mode of discovering snowpack data.

Earlier you suggested that the forecasters had difficulty assimilating and analyzing the quantity of data being collected. You've also suggested at least indirectly that the spatial variablity of a snowpack requires that many snow pit analyses be done. These two items alone make me think that a GIS could be of great help to the forecasting community. Data assimilation, display, and analysis of spatial data and it's inherent variablity is where a well constructed GIS can be of the greatest assistance. There will never be a replacement for human analysis, but technology can "preprocess" data and visualize it such that trends across areas (or the lack of such) are more readily recognizable.

I'm going to stay largely out of Buzz's bailwick at the moment because I think that focusing of avy forecasting (apparently exclusively) is missing a large chunk of the possiblity utility for snow pack analysis. A desktop GIS that can be used to collect data from as many sources as is possible will only make forecasting more scientific and defensible. Funding is out there for GIS's. And you'd be surprised at how willing the GIS communty (in particular the OpenSource GIS community) is to helping people out with the software.

It sounds to me like the Avalanche Forecasting Community has two primary procedural bottlenecks in the forecasting process. Data collection, and data assimilation and analysis. Buzz has an idea to help with the collection and to some extent the assimilation. If Buzz's work can speed up data collection and increase the number of pits dug per trip then you've begun to get a better handle on the spatial variablity. Then, if a GIS can collect data from the field (of all formats transcribed or electronic) and present it for visualization and analysis you've dealt at least partially with the analytical bottleneck.

Note: by Analysis, I mean human interpretation. The GIS can do some processing of the data, but the human brain is still key to any analysis.

[Buzzworthy]

Halstead,

I don't think that anyone here has ever suggested that Buzz's data collector or any GIS could replace a snow pit as the primary mode of discovering snowpack data.

Negative, snowpits need to be dug still, we know that.
The Archer is a means of taking the data you observe. YOU being the key. Without the forecaster's knowledge, the data is useless. Expertise is needed to analyze data. I am providing a tool.

Earlier you suggested that the forecasters had difficulty assimilating and analyzing the quantity of data being collected. You've also suggested at least indirectly that the spatial variablity of a snowpack requires that many snow pit analyses be done. These two items alone make me think that a GIS could be of great help to the forecasting community. Data assimilation, display, and analysis of spatial data and it's inherent variablity is where a well constructed GIS can be of the greatest assistance. There will never be a replacement for human analysis, but technology can "preprocess" data and visualize it such that trends across areas (or the lack of such) are more readily recognizable..

This is where we need individuals like Nater to help with this construction, in many aspects.

I'm going to stay largely out of Buzz's bailwick at the moment because I think that focusing of avy forecasting (apparently exclusively) is missing a large chunk of the possiblity utility for snow pack analysis.

Nater, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Many applications are being looked at as well. The possibilities are becoming quite large and interest is there, worldwide.

A desktop GIS that can be used to collect data from as many sources as is possible will only make forecasting more scientific and defensible. Funding is out there for GIS's. And you'd be surprised at how willing the GIS communty (in particular the OpenSource GIS community) is to helping people out with the software.

Many people have called me directly so far because of this thread, and not maggots. They all heard a friend talk about a thread they saw on the internet.

It sounds to me like the Avalanche Forecasting Community has two primary procedural bottlenecks in the forecasting process. Data collection, and data assimilation and analysis. Buzz has an idea to help with the collection and to some extent the assimilation. If Buzz's work can speed up data collection and increase the number of pits dug per trip then you've begun to get a better handle on the spatial variablity. Then, if a GIS can collect data from the field (of all formats transcribed or electronic) and present it for visualization and analysis you've dealt at least partially with the analytical bottleneck.

Ding, Ding, Ding. Dead on.

Note: by Analysis, I mean human interpretation. The GIS can do some processing of the data, but the human brain is still key to any analysis.

No one is replaced, they simply get to do their job(s) faster, better, stronger, more efficiently.

[iskibc]

Buzz,

Are you familiar at all with bcmaps.com? I know the Utah Avalanche Center is using this site for a lot of their data gatherings and observer data collection. jonpierre designed and started up the site and has done a pretty good job with it. I know he's still working on tweaking a few things and making it more user friendly, but I could see it as being a great match with what you are doing. Just a thought. If you have any questions, pm him directly. I'm sure he would be happy to help you out.

I like your idea too. I think it's a great way to capture, store, and present pit data and obs.

[Hacksaw]

(snip) If Buzz's work can speed up data collection and increase the number of pits dug per trip then you've begun to get a better handle on the spatial variablity.

You really believe that?

Just because an observer/forcaster has a hi-tec gizmo for recording snowpits he/she is going to dig more snowpits? Sorry, I really don't think so........

[Telenater]

You really believe that?

Just because an observer/forcaster has a hi-tec gizmo for recording snowpits he/she is going to dig more snowpits? Sorry, I really don't think so........

Technology has resulted in very significant efficiency increases in almost every data collection intensive industry I've looked at. Buz can probably give you far better numbers because that's what his livelihood is, but I can say that we've seen very noticeable increases in number of plots sampled in our invasive vegetation stem count plots (1m square piece of ground and count every stem coming out of the ground by family or species). I haven't done the numbers myself, but my coworkers have suggested that the data collection systems have improved efficiencies by around 20% (though we were early adopters of technology and the methods have changed somewhat over the past few years).

[Buzzworthy]

You really believe that?

Just because an observer/forcaster has a hi-tec gizmo for recording snowpits he/she is going to dig more snowpits? Sorry, I really don't think so........

H,

Tell me why you don't think so, I would like to know. The more I know, the better.

My common sense says that if I can dig a pit and gather data faster, than theoretically I can dig more pits for a more varied pit data in the same amount of time in the field.

And that is such a tiny part of the whole solution.

Am I incorrect on this hypothesis?

[Buzzworthy]

Buzz,

Are you familiar at all with bcmaps.com? I know the Utah Avalanche Center is using this site for a lot of their data gatherings and observer data collection. jonpierre designed and started up the site and has done a pretty good job with it. I know he's still working on tweaking a few things and making it more user friendly, but I could see it as being a great match with what you are doing. Just a thought. If you have any questions, pm him directly. I'm sure he would be happy to help you out.

I like your idea too. I think it's a great way to capture, store, and present pit data and obs.

D, I will be looking into this and I thank you for the info. I will def. get with JP as well.

Thanks, I like the idea too.

[Buzzworthy]

I haven't done the numbers myself, but my coworkers have suggested that the data collection systems have improved efficiencies by around 20% (though we were early adopters of technology and the methods have changed somewhat over the past few years).

I have seen reports in the Foresty market of up to 50% better efficiency.
Granted these numbers come from many years of analysis with our core market.

If I can get 20%+ more efficiency in the field, than I save you a lot of money and time, bottom line.

[Hacksaw]

H,

Tell me why you don't think so, I would like to know. The more I know, the better.

My common sense says that if I can dig a pit and gather data faster, than theoretically I can dig more pits for a more varied pit data in the same amount of time in the field.

And that is such a tiny part of the whole solution.

Am I incorrect on this hypothesis?

Well, if this gizmo saves soo much time, why not spend the "saved" time skiing...

Besides, if you go skiing you get a better handle on the snow/avalanches conditions any way.....

And I've found hasty pits and hand pits give a lot of information. These can be done a lot while skiing. Have you added hasty pit and hand pit software to your gizmo?

[lemon boy]

Well, if this gizmo saves soo much time, why not spend the "saved" time skiing...

And besides, if you go skiing you get a better handle on the snow/avalanches conditions.....

20% less time in pits = time spent skiing....

ummmmm why wouldn't forecasters like it again???

[Hacksaw]

ummmmm why wouldn't forecasters like it again???

Money spent on gizmo Vs. spent paying underpaid forecaster.......

[Buzzworthy]

Well, if this gizmo saves soo much time, why not spend the "saved" time skiing...

Besides, if you go skiing you get a better handle on the snow/avalanches conditions any way.....

And I've found hasty pits and hand pits give a lot of information. These can be done a lot while skiing. Have you added hasty pit and hand pit software to your gizmo?

Or spend the saved time doing the job better and more? I am here to offer a hi-tec gizmo to help increase WORK effienciency. Still have plenty of time for skiing, which is correct, invaluable for snow conditions, see it first hand.

Oh, and customize the software however you like, in the order you want. You want Hasty, no problem. It is all customizable.

[Hacksaw]

How about you customize it to pay the forecaster better?

Its going to be hard to stand there in a snowpit with a $1700 gizmo in your hand, and realize you didn't get a raise again..........

[Buzzworthy]

How about you customize it to pay the forecaster better?

Its going to be hard to stand there in a snowpit with a $1700 gizmo in your hand, and realize you didn't get a raise again..........

Halstead,

If the initial investment of say, $1700, that will last 10 years or more that helps you do your job say 30% faster, don't you think a good supervisor would see your work, see how efficent you have become and have brought in more valuable data to work with, and give you a raise?

You are in 1% or less of the industry we are looking at as users. You have said acengies like the CAIC or others do not have the funding. OK, I know this. That is why I am not going to sell you this solution. I can clearly see you don't want to have anything to do with a solution of this nature. I feel it is too bad you can't open your eyes more to the big picture. From all of this discussion, the main thing I see that you see is $$$$. Whether it is lack of funding for a solution like this or no raises because an organization decided to jump into the 21st century, I feel you can't see past this: $.

As the old guard head out, the new techy forcasters will be jumping on this.


Maybe once the snow flies I can show you this big picture, for shits and giggles at the least.

I must say this is a good discussion. Two opposites trying to see the others view. With my background and degree in Forestry, I so see the funding issues and that is why I never went into the USDA FS. I do see your point. But I have one too.


Bottom line:

The lives that are saved from avalanche and snow safety data, if only one per year, is invaluable, regardless of what method or solution you use.


I look forward to seeing what you have to say tommorow.

Have a great evening.

[Buzzworthy]

How about you customize it to pay the forecaster better?

If I can get the damn thing to spit out $100 bills, you will be the first one I contact.

[Hacksaw]

Halstead,

If the initial investment of say, $1700, that will last 10 years or more that helps you do your job say 30% faster, don't you think a good supervisor would see your work, see how efficent you have become and have brought in more valuable data to work with, and give you a raise?

Your right maybe if you have a good supervisor this wouldn't be an issue ..But, the MAJOR problem as many of us (i.e., veteran avalanche professionals) see it is that the American (and for that matter I'll bet the Canadian) avalanche centers have done TOO GOOD a job, of sucking by for years on a minimal budget. So, when you toss out that some $1700 gizmo will mean you'll have to work 30-40% more because it means we can work our asses off MORE for the same old low pay, you really believe we would get raises? LOLROF!!! Come on do you really believe this???

You are in 1% or less of the industry we are looking at as users. You have said acengies like the CAIC or others do not have the funding. OK, I know this. That is why I am not going to sell you this solution. I can clearly see you don't want to have anything to do with a solution of this nature. I feel it is too bad you can't open your eyes more to the big picture. From all of this discussion, the main thing I see that you see is $$$$. Whether it is lack of funding for a solution like this or no raises because an organization decided to jump into the 21st century, I feel you can't see past this: $.

Your right, I can't see past the $$$. DO YOU WORK FOR FREE?

Why should I work for free or any other avalanche forcaster?? My eyes are VERY wide open and see the reality of the world around us. It doesn't matter to me if the avalanche centers buy your gizmo or not (since I'm no longer with CAIC). Folks are still going to buy my field books. There isn't a single avalanche school that could buy 10-20 of your gizmos... D'oh!!!

Students will still start out with fieldbooks like mine, before they even get close to your gizmo... Folks will still realize that 21st century hi-tec gizmos are exspensive breakable, take up space in their packs and are heavy....

As the old guard head out, the new techy forcasters will be jumping on this.

Your very right. And I can't wait to see how well they do forecasting with their accidemic degrees... But, we shouldn't ride them too hard...

Maybe once the snow flies I can show you this big picture, for shits and giggles at the least.

Not unles that gizmo starts shiting out $100 bills at the trailhead... and there's a strip bar close by......

I must say this is a good discussion. Two opposites trying to see the others view. With my background and degree in Forestry, I so see the funding issues and that is why I never went into the USDA FS. I do see your point. But I have one too.

Yes, I agree it has been a good discussion. You'll be selling your gizmo and I'll still be selling field books.... And the industry will be buying them BOTH....

Bottom line:

The lives that are saved from avalanche and snow safety data, if only one per year, is invaluable, regardless of what method or solution you use.


I look forward to seeing what you have to say tommorow.

Have a great evening.

Your very right. And my field books have been doing that for years and will be doing that for years to come.

Your new GIS-GPS-Palmpilot will do the same in the long run. Just remember what George Jetson said, "Jane turnoff this crazy thing."

But, when you ask why is the "avalanche-snow" industry still using fieldbooks, I've tried to tell you why. And why they will still be around even when you bring out your new product (see I didn't call it "gizmo"). Your right, the avalanche centers won't be able to afford these units right away. But, will the local ski guide, ski patrol or snownerd? So, don't expect everyone to buy one, and drop it in to their pack......

I hope to see you at ISSW. Your on for buying me a beer for everytime you've misspelled my name............. D'OH!!!! And I'm Loveland ski patrol/CAIC trained at drinking beer.. Its spelled H-A-L-S-T-E-D........

Cheers,
HALSTED
PS Bingo!!! I hit the 100th posting on this thread.................