Why is the industry still using field books for snow data, for the most part?

[covert]

:

1) There's no budget for these hi-tec units. And if there is budget, it should be spent on staff pay first.

2) the solo (repeat = SOLO) forecaster in the CAIC office will just be buried under a bunch of data (see #3), and not be able to put it to much use if at all. So, if you have lots of people with these units instantly sending in their data you'll just overwhelm the forecaster......

3) these hi-tec toys don't address the inherent spaitial variability of snowpits and the snowpack. All these hi-tec toys mean is the data comes in faster, but it doesn't mean the data is any good.

Halsted

1) patrol budgets are mostly tight but there are many large ski areas with enough money to support advances in technology if they can be convinced of the need. look at what copper has done with computers in their snow safety department.

2) many ski areas document snowpit information for liability and archival reasons as much as for forecasting. there's no need for these people to be buried in avalanches of information...

3) see above

Halsted, your opinions are obviously valid for how these tools might pertain to the CAIC but i see great potential here. someone has to take the first step...

like your book by the way. i'll always carry one because hand-held computer is very far down on my list of required gear when i'm in the bc.

[The Reverend Floater]

My old roomie is the lead avy guy for this plot of national forest. He uses a little digital recording device to record observations which he later transcribes on the PC. Works well for him!

[Bunion 2020]

Works well for him!

Bang!!!!!


Thats what it comes down to.

Good friend of mine, Snow Safety Director for a nearby ski area. He does log pits in his Rite in the Rain books when he can find time to dig a pit. What you will find in his field books is mostly cryptic observations that follow his mindset and way of coming to terms with what he is seeing.

Avalanche forecasting in a ski area setting is not about data, it is about daily observations and yearly experience. Putting those two things together and coming up with your forecast for what to do today, tomorrow and next week.

I guess I just can't understand (if you have the budget) of not using something to make your job easier. I messed with field books way too much in the 5 years I used them in LS/forestry. I then used a handheld and could double my effieciency.

Buzz, I won't talk down to you but in a snowpit you are constantly taking your gloves off and running your fingers into the snow (at least I am, tactile feedback on layers tells me a great deal more than a shear test" Using a keyboard ( a small one) or a stylus and entering data just isn't that efficient. I want to dig, spend 30 min. TOPS! and move on. With the current hand held devices available, this isn't that realistic.

Keep it up, most of us are past the caveman era and are quite proficient at this technology stuff. You build me a reasonable data collection device that actually saves me time and I will use it.

If not, well at least face downwind.

[Hacksaw]

1) patrol budgets are mostly tight but there are many large ski areas with enough money to support advances in technology if they can be convinced of the need. look at what copper has done with computers in their snow safety department.

2) many ski areas document snowpit information for liability and archival reasons as much as for forecasting. there's no need for these people to be buried in avalanches of information...

3) see above

Halsted, your opinions are obviously valid for how these tools might pertain to the CAIC but i see great potential here. someone has to take the first step...

like your book by the way. i'll always carry one because hand-held computer is very far down on my list of required gear when i'm in the bc.

Glad you like my fieldbook.

But, "3) see above" doesn't answer the inherent problems of snowpack/snowpit spatial varibility does it? It doesn't matter if you have a handheld super computer or a fieldbook; spatial varibility is still there...... D'oh!!!

Yes, I look at this subject from a CAIC standpoint. For CAIC to take that "big first step," someone has to come up with a lot of money.......

I'd just rather see that money spent in a better way.

Halsted

[Buzzworthy]

3) these hi-tec toys don't address the inherent spaitial variability of snowpits and the snowpack. All these hi-tec toys mean is the data comes in faster, but it doesn't mean the data is any good.

YOU keyed the data in, so if it is not any good, then guess who is at fault.

The old "computers are stupid" is crap, the users are. (not calling you stupid at all, example only).



I like to hear from you that have been in the field. It give me ideas of what needs to be implemented.

What if it was a software design from the ground up with all the data you need and more areas to put this other data you want to put in? Would that be better? (I think so)

I know what I face, but I am a strong willed person and won't give up. I will get my success.


Do you guys have a scanner you could copy an example pit with ALL of the data you put in and email it to me to look at? I see many different practices and wonder what Halsted and Bunion are putting in there as the "extras".


Halsted, easy, no need to get into profanity. We are all having a simple or should I say complex debate on what needs to happen.

Look at all the info I have to work from just in this thread. I thank you.


I am not closed to ANY idea. You have something good, let me know. I am trying to do this to save lives down the road, make life and jobs easier and so forth.


Doug, quit trying to get Halsted's panties in a bunch.

We are all on the same team, remember that please.



Carry on, thank you and good day.

[Telenater]

Yeah, I'm a techie, but I'm also one that has helped design a few data collection methodologies for environmental sampling.....

1) There's no budget for these hi-tec units. And if there is budget, it should be spent on staff pay first.

Budget is a big problem for many groups. As Buzz has suggested, it's likely that financial support to get the industry started down this path will be neccessary.

2) the solo (repeat = SOLO) forecaster in the CAIC office will just be buried under a bunch of data (see #3), and not be able to put it to much use if at all. So, if you have lots of people with these units instantly sending in their data you'll just overwhelm the forecaster......

Data management can become a problem, but I'm sure that at first that sole forecaster will not be making use of any more data than he/she is at present. Software and Data Management systems are marvelous things. They can provide you with the data you always need, and make other data available as needed.

3) these hi-tec toys don't address the inherent spaitial variability of snowpits and the snowpack. All these hi-tec toys mean is the data comes in faster, but it doesn't mean the data is any good.

If these "hi-tec toys" don't address the inherent spatial variablity of snowpits or a snowpack when used to collect exactly the same data that you're collecting now (and more), then the data collection methodology is the problem not the toys. In ANY case where you're dealing with highly spatially variable data, the more (and better) samples you have, the better your data analysis can be. The more data you have the more assistance the analyst/forecaster needs from software to effectively assimilate the available data. But in just about every instance I've read up on, the trade off has been worth it. Admittedly all of those instance required either substantial subsidies to get started, or were cash rich industries, but just because avalanche forecasting isn't cash rich, doesn't mean that the process can't be improved if funding can be found to start the ball rolling.

YOU keyed the data in, so if it is not any good, then guess who is at fault.

There is no reason why data collected through an automated device should be any less accurate than that collected in a field book. If it's user entry errors then it's user entry. A well-designed data dictionary can eliminate many types of user error as well as speeding up the data collection.

I am not closed to ANY idea.

Except that technology is not a good solution.

Another suggestion for Buzz..... Make a handheld that can record dictation for later transcription in addition to menu based entry. I've yet to find a keyboard or "script" recognition implementation on a hand-held device that was particularly user friendly in a hostile environment.

[Bunion 2020]

Do you guys have a scanner you could copy an example pit with ALL of the data you put in and email it to me to look at? I see many different practices and wonder what Halsted and Bunion are putting in there as the "extras".

Sure thing Buzz, give me a day or two and I will send you several examples from our forecasting team. That will be from at least 4 different people. I think you may miss some important nuance so if you have questions, please feel free to ask for clarifications.

[PlayHarder]

YOU keyed the data in, so if it is not any good, then guess who is at fault.

I could wrong (it happens frequently), but I took that to mean Hacksaw is concerned with being overloaded with possibly bad data from recreational users submitting their findings.

the solo (repeat = SOLO) forecaster in the CAIC office will just be buried under a bunch of data (see #3), and not be able to put it to much use if at all. So, if you have lots of people with these units instantly sending in their data you'll just overwhelm the forecaster......

Interesting stuff, carry on.

[Buzzworthy]

Nater, yes, point taken.


Bunion and the rest, the more info I have, the better I can do my job and TRY to make it easier for you. I will be very interested in your data and would like to go over it with you on the phone on my dime. PM me your number and I will.

Thanks guys.

Time to ride the motorcycle home.

[tarkman1]

I got sick of this thread after the first five posts.

What the hell are you selling?

Is it Avi recording data or is a ruggedized collection device that is loadable with software for use in recording snowpack conditions?

Expand the friggin' pie. If the market isn't large enough for exclusively a single market, figure out what else the hardware can do given other software loads.

[Buzzworthy]

I got sick of this thread after the first five posts.

So why are you in it, I would prefer this to stay on track.

Read the thread and you will find out the project I am working on. I am not selling anything yet and it won't be here. I am gathering data and wanting opinions from snow science people.

[covert]

buzz,

we need an inclinometer, altimeter and compass in your device...

[Buzzworthy]

buzz,

we need an inclinometer, altimeter and compass in your device...

2 out of 3 done, altimeter and compass= GPS.

[P_McPoser]

I am not a snow science guy, but in my day-to-day stuff at work, I basically perform the same functions with rocks instead. I have tried both electronic data collection and the tried and true write-in-the rain units. I have always been able to do my job faster with the notebooks, irregardless of the data-rehandle occuring at the end of the day when it goes into computer form. The problems I had with the electronic collector were mostly related to the rigidity of the software. Try to make something too streamlined, too specific, then sublte nuances that can be recorded on paper are lost for good . The other problem were graphical input, there was none in the data collector. I assume that snow science experts probably "map layers" and draw pictures to clear up their notes? I know I do that, it's absolutely necessary for rock mechanics.

You know what I just bought, it's so simple that it's stupid. It is also stupid-cheap. It is a clipboard with a memory stick that digitally stores your handwritten notes as you write them. That is about as efficient as you can get without losing the flexibility available with pen and paper when making complex notes about complex things.

I'll part with my favorite phrase as an engineer, "As simple as possible, but not too simple."

Hopefully there was something to be gained from my observations.

[covert]

2 out of 3 done, altimeter and compass= GPS.

so your unit will actually have a compass on it to get a true measure of aspect? because there are gps's on the market that don't...

[Buzzworthy]

so your unit will actually have a compass on it to get a true measure of aspect? because there are gps's on the market that don't...

It is not on board so you can link via cable or Bluetooth to just about any GPS receiver on the market that meets your needs. Plus filters in the mapping software can give you declination or true. This is the part I am still in the process of learning.

[tarkman1]

The first five posts read like a broken record. Snow science data collection is merely an application of device. Getting wrapped up on a particular use of a product ignores the broaded uses and makes one blind to other applications. The technology isn't as important as the problems solved.

[Hacksaw]

The first five posts read like a broken record. Snow science data collection is merely an application of device. Getting wrapped up on a particular use of a product ignores the broaded uses and makes one blind to other applications. The technology isn't as important as the problems solved.

Will this new proposed equipment be driving the process? Or are the needs of the process driving what the equipment should deliver? But, then again does it really matter, if the observer doesn't know were, when or how to dig any how?

[BFD]

I use a data collector surveying. If your goal is to gather data and share it with others, electronically is the way to go. The financial argument does not make sense other than the initial purchase. A person can enter the data in the field come back to the office and in seconds be sharing it with the world. While with the field book you may be able to scan it but most likely need to be rewritten to post eletronically. Plus no more field books stacked in the file cabinets.

[Buzzworthy]

I use a data collector surveying. If your goal is to gather data and share it with others, electronically is the way to go. The financial argument does not make sense other than the initial purchase. A person can enter the data in the field come back to the office and in seconds be sharing it with the world. While with the field book you may be able to scan it but most likely need to be rewritten to post eletronically. Plus no more field books stacked in the file cabinets.

THANK YOU!

[cololi]

Buzz,

The more it can doteh better. I agree with man yof the points on both sides. It kind of follows the same path of the space pen, the US spent milllions develping, the russians used a pencil.

I like the concept of a handheld, but cost is amjor factor for agencies doing snow safety. I really think the main market will be for recreational users. I see gear heads every day in the backcountry who have all of the latest gear who would pay probably$800 for a device that is more than a simple GPS. One that could enter the kind of data you plan on including. I guess if you had a rugged enough computer and kick ass software, it would work.

ALso, I would much rather use a stylus to enter data than continuallly take my gloves off to write down or draw a pit profile because Icould do so with my gloves on. Incorporate it with a good data dictionary and it would be easy to use. I've done some survey grade map mapping with a gps unit in very inclimate (snowing, 30+ mph winds, and in temps around 5 degrees) weathe using a stylus and never had to take my gloves off. I got back to the office and within 5 minutes had a printout of my route, the mapped points, a digital photo of the mapped sites (hyperlinked in Arcview mapping software) and a chart showing lot size, the zoning, current use, and location of all utilities.

The key is demonstrating the long term time savings of using the technology.

[sarge1957]

I'm up here in Juneau with Roner and Karina waiting out the weather for some ski base. Good thread. As far as what we do in the feild, I like new tech. I don't use a feild book any more, I read my pit, notes, and observations into a digital recorder. I save the voice files as .wavs for documentation, then play them back and type them into snowpro. I like the system, but if Buzz can take it to the next level I'm all over it. I think voice recognition is the key. So my pit data is entered and formated as I talk. Things like blue tooth thermometers, GPS, Digi cam, etc all would speed my time in the pit. Since everything we do is remote (no snotels or remote data) pits are very important to me, but I like to dig a lot of them, manual recording is just slow in my opinion. I've been doing it digital for 5 years now and have yet to loose on days data. Other features for cataloging terrain using GIS and digital imagery are important added value to a device like this as well. As far as back-ups, I believe this unit is wifi capable so it would be easy to have auto back-up as soon as you're in range of the home system. As for the cost, I don't care if it is $1700, I've spent a lot more than than on the rest of my guide kit.

Sarge

[Buzzworthy]

This will be actively used very shortly. Beta testing will begin with a contact I found that I feel can help with this "solution" immensly and the CEO signed off on it. Time to take it to the field!!! Of course next season will be the real test, when we get snow again.


More to come.

[sarge1957]

Buzz:

I just dug a pit yesterday up here in Juneau. I'm ready when ever you are!

Sarge

[cololi]

Ron,

Keep me posted. Would still love to participate.