NSR - TV's - analysis of Plasma vs LCD vs DLP vs CRT, etc

[SquawMan]

fyi....pretty good info in this

http://www.digdia.com/hdtv06/digdia_hdtv06b.pdf

[Snow Dog]

Interesting but there's still nothing to watch.

[skier666]

From hearing people on videogame forums talk endlessly about this issue...

It seems to me, but I could be mistaken, CRT HDTV's are still the best picture (deepest black levels) you can get. The main drawback is the size and weight. All the others, they are pushing for bigger and thinner for wall mounts. People think that their new plasma is the sickness, but in reality, they are getting a worse picture. My conclusion, unless you are really pressed for space, or absolutely need to wall mount your tv, or also use it as a computer monitor, I'd stay in the CRT category. But then again, I'm wierd.

[Squatch]

i recall reading that there is an emerging technology that would incorporate multiple CRTs. Could be cool...read about it in popular mechanics. Supposed to have better picture than anything out there.

[Big E]

From hearing people on videogame forums talk endlessly about this issue...

It seems to me, but I could be mistaken, CRT HDTV's are still the best picture (deepest black levels) you can get. The main drawback is the size and weight. All the others, they are pushing for bigger and thinner for wall mounts. People think that their new plasma is the sickness, but in reality, they are getting a worse picture. My conclusion, unless you are really pressed for space, or absolutely need to wall mount your tv, or also use it as a computer monitor, I'd stay in the CRT category. But then again, I'm wierd.

I still prefer the CRTs. One thing that really bugs me about all the others is how the picture drops off as you go off-axis. Drives me nuts. CRTs also just have a much "smoother" picture to me. I'm blessed with good eyesight, and on flat-panel PC monitors, I actually see every pixel. They're much better than they used to be, but still not as nice as a really good CRT. IMHO.

[Snow Dog]

It seems to me, but I could be mistaken, CRT HDTV's are still the best picture (deepest black levels) you can get. The main drawback is the size and weight. All the others, they are pushing for bigger and thinner for wall mounts. People think that their new plasma is the sickness, but in reality, they are getting a worse picture. My conclusion, unless you are really pressed for space, or absolutely need to wall mount your tv, or also use it as a computer monitor, I'd stay in the CRT category. But then again, I'm wierd.

I still prefer CRT plus the weight keeps them from getting stolen. At the local Sony store the CRTs have been moved to the back. According to the sales drone the 36" CRT 4:3 HD TV has been discontinued but it's still available on the web site. Buy it while you can.

[stash]

I still prefer the CRTs. One thing that really bugs me about all the others is how the picture drops off as you go off-axis. Drives me nuts. CRTs also just have a much "smoother" picture to me. I'm blessed with good eyesight, and on flat-panel PC monitors, I actually see every pixel. They're much better than they used to be, but still not as nice as a really good CRT. IMHO.

Hmmm, I'm not sure that makes sense. Resolution determines the size/amount of pixels, regardless of what the delivery type is (CRT, LCD, Plasma, etc.). Pixels are, by definition, only a single color. What you might be seeing is more accurate color representation/better contrast on the flat panels (which should be a good thing, right?).

I find that all but the highest of high end CRT's suffer from flicker when pushed to high resolution, which makes for a terrible display of a stationary picture (but isn't really noticeable with a lot of movement/action). Hence, I prefer a constant brightness display (LCD, Plasma) for computing, but don't really care for TV.

Then again, I may be full of shit.

[Snow Dog]

Hmmm, I'm not sure that makes sense. Resolution determines the size/amount of pixels, regardless of what the delivery type is (CRT, LCD, Plasma, etc.). Pixels are, by definition, only a single color.

The size of the (3-colour) pixel is determined by the dot pitch -- the size of the pixel (on an LCD) or the shadow mask (on a CRT). CRTs still have a finer dot pitch than LCDs. CRTs are analogue and are still better at anti-aliasing.

[milton]

That PDF gives a good overview, thanks.

CRT's still rule for contrast and response time. I'm holding out for SED technology, I can wait another year or two.

http://www.digitalworldtokyo.com/arc...vs_coming.html

[skier666]

CRT's still rule for contrast and response time. I'm holding out for SED technology, I can wait another year or two.

http://www.digitalworldtokyo.com/arc...vs_coming.html

But I think they are prone to burn-in (according to that PDF)....which is an issue when there is any text on the screen or playing videogames.

[SquawMan]

LCD TV panel ASPs to continue falling in 2Q, say sources
================================================== ===========

Max Wang, Taipei; Emily Chuang, DigiTimes.com [Monday 17 April 2006]


Although Samsung Electronics stated during its first quarter investors conference that it expects large-size panel price reductions to ease in the second quarter, industry sources are now warning that ASPs (average selling prices) for panels sized larger than 30-inches would continue falling this quarter amid fierce price competition between the 42-and 40-inch segments.

LG. Philips LCD (42-inch) and Samsung (40-inch) are pushing the respective segments to become the standard in the size in LCD TV market.

To further increase its 42-inch LCD TV panel shipments this month, Korean-based LG. Philips LCD has adopted a more aggressive pricing strategy, the sources pointed out, noting that the move is expected to force rival Samsung to lower prices for its 40-inch LCD TV panels.

The ASP for 40-inch LCD TV panels has fallen to US$865, down from US$930 since the beginning of this year, while quotes for 42-inch decreased to US$925, down from US$1,100 since early 2006, according to WitsView Technology.

In addition, competition in the 40-inch segments will have a domino effect on the 32- and 37-inch segments, the sources noted.

The ASP for 32-inch LCD TV panels is currently near production costs for second-tier panel makers, some panel makers are even offering prices below production costs, the sources added. First tier makers, however, may also post losses this quarter once the ASP for the 32-inch segment falls below US$430-440, the sources estimate.

The ASP for 32-inch LCD TV panels is US$485 for the first half of April, WitsView noted.

[skier666]

Damnit....you're going to make me replace my 8 year old CRT Wega!

[YB]

I read about two weeks ago in Circuits in the NYT that Mitsubishi is coming to market with a laser fired DLP, instead of strong bulbs used in present models. This is probably going to be a nice set. LCD's are great if you need something really flat but my rear projection, current technology Samsung DLP tv gives the most bang for buck.

[frorider]

that .pdf was a decent summary, overall.

since some of us who are into the sport of skiing live in the mountains, it's unfortunate that the slide set did not mention the altitude issues with plasma tv.

http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/p...-altitude.html

[runethechamp]

LCD TV panel ASPs to continue falling in 2Q, say sources
================================================== ===========

Max Wang, Taipei; Emily Chuang, DigiTimes.com [Monday 17 April 2006]


Although Samsung Electronics stated during its first quarter investors conference that it expects large-size panel price reductions to ease in the second quarter, industry sources are now warning that ASPs (average selling prices) for panels sized larger than 30-inches would continue falling this quarter amid fierce price competition between the 42-and 40-inch segments.

LG. Philips LCD (42-inch) and Samsung (40-inch) are pushing the respective segments to become the standard in the size in LCD TV market.

To further increase its 42-inch LCD TV panel shipments this month, Korean-based LG. Philips LCD has adopted a more aggressive pricing strategy, the sources pointed out, noting that the move is expected to force rival Samsung to lower prices for its 40-inch LCD TV panels.

The ASP for 40-inch LCD TV panels has fallen to US$865, down from US$930 since the beginning of this year, while quotes for 42-inch decreased to US$925, down from US$1,100 since early 2006, according to WitsView Technology.

In addition, competition in the 40-inch segments will have a domino effect on the 32- and 37-inch segments, the sources noted.

The ASP for 32-inch LCD TV panels is currently near production costs for second-tier panel makers, some panel makers are even offering prices below production costs, the sources added. First tier makers, however, may also post losses this quarter once the ASP for the 32-inch segment falls below US$430-440, the sources estimate.

The ASP for 32-inch LCD TV panels is US$485 for the first half of April, WitsView noted.

Cool info, but I still haven't seen prices close to this in any stores yet. Are these prises supposed to be retail parices?

[SquawMan]

Cool info, but I still haven't seen prices close to this in any stores yet. Are these prises supposed to be retail parices?

Rune, it's just the cost of the panels themselves, the main component of the TV, which is the biggest proxy for pricing and biggest component cost of every TV

so as panel prices fall, so do the ultimate street prices

for example, a 42 inch Samsung DLP TV is going for $1,699 at Circuit City and using that chart above, you can see how much panels contribute to the cost of a set



fyi....

two years ago, a 50 inch Samsung DLP was selling for $4,000+

today that same set is selling for $1,900

next year at this time, industry analysts say it will go for $1,000

[runethechamp]

Thanks for the info, I'm keeping an eye on this for sure.

[SquawMan]

The flat panels

Despite the alphabet soup, flat-panel displays get most of the attention because of their size, shape and, of course, cool factor.

They're also getting much cheaper. The price for a 42-inch high-definition plasma is expected to drop below $1,000 by the holidays, if not sooner, particularly for the lesser-known names, said Eric Haruki, a research manager for IDC, a technology research company. Many 30-inch and smaller LCD sets already cost less than $1,000.

"It's going to get better and cheaper from here on out," he said.

The price cut comes as manufacturers build additional factories in Asia, so much so that in recent weeks, Wall Street has speculated that the market could be hit with a surplus of LCD sets.

But at the same time, the price decreases are expected to slow as the pace of factory construction also slows. Since their introduction several years ago, flat-panel prices have steadily fallen about 25 percent per year, but that decline will probably not be as dramatic this year, said Jeff Cove, vice president of technology and alliances for Panasonic Corp. of North America.

The new factories are using the latest technologies to build LCDs, so the sets have become larger and have begun to rival plasmas. Whereas historically LCD sets were smaller and plasma displays larger, both now offer televisions in the prime 40- to 50-inch range.

"As LCDs have become more efficient and costs have come down, they've taken the lower end of the plasma market," said Alfred Poor, senior research associate at Pacific Media Associates. "It's a very tough battle between LCD and plasma."

Plasmas also are getting bigger and better. Panasonic plans to sell a 103-inch plasma -- it's so large it could take up an entire wall -- in time for the holidays this year. It has not disclosed a price. "We're seeing consumers wanting bigger and bigger screens," Cove said. "We don't know how big this is going to get."

But despite all the hoopla over LCD and plasma televisions, both still have drawbacks.

Colors may not always be as vibrant, the contrast not as vivid, or the black not as black as on a regular CRT.

"CRT is still the gold standard," said Steve Sechrist, a senior analyst and editor at Insight Media.

Fast-moving pictures may blur. The picture may also look faded or even the wrong color from certain angles.

And because not all channels are produced in high-definition, some sets do a better job converting the picture to standard definition than others.

Manufacturers have labored over the problems. Sony, for instance, said it's improved the viewing angles on its LCD sets so that if the angles were any wider, people would be "behind the television set," said Phil Abram, vice president of television marketing.

Plasma manufacturers have also fixed an earlier problem with "burn in" images on the screens. During the early days of plasma, if an image was left on the screen for too many hours, it could be stamped there permanently. "We now call it a myth," said Cove of Panasonic.

"If you never had a problem with your CRT, you won't have a problem with your plasma," he added.

In comparing the two technologies, LCDs tend to be lighter and thinner, generate less heat and the image may look better in a brightly lit room than plasmas, analysts said. Plasmas, on the other hand, handle fast-moving images better and offer better color saturation and deeper blacks than LCDs.

Peripheral considerations

Cost-conscious shoppers should also be aware that the purchase doesn't just end with the television. To get high-definition programming, viewers need an antenna, cable or satellite service.

They will also probably have to purchase cables to hook up the set. Bergam, who mounted his plasma television on his wall, estimated he spent about $300 to $400 for additional audio and video cables to connect his plasma to his satellite television box and digital video recorder. He also spent several hundred dollars to have someone hang the set on the wall.

Even as consumer electronics-makers enhance plasma and LCD sets, they're also developing technologies such as OLED, which stands for organic light emitting diodes, and SED, or surface-conduction electron-emitter displays. They could potentially supplant today's flat-panel displays because they're lighter, brighter and handle motion better.

Further ahead, Philips is developing televisions that produce 3-D images that don't require viewers to wear funny glasses. And Sharp is working on a display where two images can be seen at once on the same screen, depending on the viewer's angle.

But unlike computers, which can quickly become obsolete, today's televisions promise to last for years.

"If you buy a TV today, it's going to be a good TV for a long, long time," said Sony's Abram. "There's not one killer technology that will wipe out the other technologies. There is nothing to say, 'Wow, I'm going to wait for that to come because that will change the game.' There is nothing like that on the horizon."



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THE TELEVISION
LANDSCAPE
Everything you need to know when shopping for a TV:



TYPE: Plasma

DEFINITION: Chamber is filled with gas, which is charged to emit light.

AVERAGE PRICE{+1}: $2,700

PROS: Thin. Crisp pictures. Can be made in large sizes, yet not bulky.

CONS: Viewing usually better in a darkened room.

TYPE: LCD (liquid crystal display)

DEFINITION: Screen is lit up, and individual pixels blocked to create different colors.

AVERAGE PRICE{+1}: $2,900

PROS: Thin. Crisp pictures. Bright. Lightweight.

CONS: Fast-moving pictures may blur or leave "ghosts" on screen.

TYPE: Front projection

DEFINITION: Projector beams the picture onto the screen. Screen size is adjustable depending on the location and setup of the projector.

AVERAGE PRICE{+1}: $1,400

PROS: Latest models are lightweight and portable.

CONS: Usually needs a tuner for television viewing. Holds a niche market in home theater installations.

TYPE: Rear projection

DEFINITION: Picture is beamed onto the screen using mirrors.

AVERAGE PRICE{+1}: $1,700

PROS: Generally cheaper than plasma and LCD. Good alternative for large-screen televisions.

CONS: Thicker case than an LCD or plasma, but smaller and lighter than a CRT. Images can be dim.

TYPE: CRT (cathode ray tube)

DEFINITION: Picture is created by shooting charged electrons inside a large glass tube, lighting up phosphors to create color.

AVERAGE PRICE{+1}: $800{+2}

PROS: Wide viewing angles, vibrant colors.

CONS: Bulky. Cannot be produced in large sizes because the set would not fit through the door. Pictures not as sharp.

{+1} Average price for a 40- to 45-inch high-definition television.

{+2} Estimated price for a 30- to 36-inch high-definition CRT, the largest available.

Sources: Pacific Media Research and hdtvprofessor.com