Who voted for Bush/Cheney in '00 or '04?

[CUBUCK]

Listen up hippies........

"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Greed is right.

Greed works.

Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

And greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.

Thank you very much."

[bklyn]

Look for the union label
when you are buying that coat, dress or blouse.
Remember somewhere our union's sewing,
our wages going to feed the kids, and run the house.
We work hard, but who's complaining?
Thanks to the I.L.G. we're paying our way!
So always look for the union label,
it says we're able to make it in the U.S.A.!

My how things have changed... my grandmother was a proud member of that union and a pattern-maker. An improvement over my great grandmother's time during the days of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire. Oh yeah, but before the unions came in, great grandma wouldn't have gotten a job in that factory anyway. Before you bash unions, remember all the things they fought for are what make your work day tolerable today.

But in the end, we didn't value America's garment workers and that industry has moved overseas. We don't value the automakers and that industry will soon be all but gone also.

[13]

Kinda figures that this thread came around to an argument of economics with the auto industry being used as an example. I don't share the same doom and gloom that some of you do about our domestic automakers -- I have more faith in them now than I did before the latest troubles.

To paraphrase some of you: "GM and Ford suck, I won't buy their cars, but I want them to employ Americans!"

The reason GM is moving a lot of its' production to China is so it isn't saddled with the rising cost of health care packages in the U.S., and the current pensions they're paying out. As was pointed out by Buster, the Chinese government's subsidies in that respect take the financial burden off of GM.

I don't know about Ford, but I would imagine they're acting along the same lines. As much as I bash Ford, I want them to stick around; domestic competition is good; it fuels innovation.

As for unions ... well, the unions of yesteryear were formed to protect the safety and employment of laborers. To a large extent, those goals have been met. Nowadays, CEOs realize that investing in the safety of their laborers as well as proper training increases worker productivity, product profitability, lowers training costs, and saves them money in taxes, among other things. Problem is, some of the unions bosses have gotten smart and seen the opportunity to use thier leverage through collective bargaining and the threat of strike to drive up compensation packages to asinine levels. Don't fucking bash unions -- many of you personally benefitted from their existence, but realize that they're not as they used to be.

[natty dread]

Natty, do you think any of these generals that are retired might not have retired, but got shipped by Rummy? just curious.

Nice right-wing radio talking point Mr. G. Your bush-coddling knows no bounds.

Regardless of how they retired, it is unprecedented for 5 high ranking generals, many of whom led the war effort, to publicly criticize the administration. Sure, there are always disagreements in every war/conflict, but it is the public nature of this one that makes it remarkable.

This gives great cover to the dems who bash rumsfeld in the upcoming election season. Hard to call the criticism unpatriotic when the sentiments are shared by the generals, although rove will certainly try.

[MassLiberal]

by the way, it's seven retired generals. 7.

[StaggerLee]

Respek. The wonders of tekmology.

[lobido]

This sums up why no none should support Bush Co.:

Christopher H. Sheppard: 'A Marine captain comes home — disillusioned'
Posted on Friday, April 14 @ 09:59:32 EDT
This article has been read 2268 times.
Christopher H. Sheppard, The Seattle Times

Three years ago, I was a Marine Corps captain on the Iraqi/Kuwaiti border, participating in the invasion of Iraq. Awestruck, I heard our howitzers thunder and watched artillery rockets rise into the night sky and streak toward Iraq — their light bathing the desert moonscape like giant arc welders.

As I watched the Iraq war begin, I completely trusted the Bush administration. I thought we were going to prove all of the left-wing antiwar protesters and dissenters wrong. I thought we were going to make America safer. Regrettably, I acknowledge that it was I who was wrong.

I believed the Bush administration when it said Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. I believed its assertion that Iraq was trying to buy yellowcake uranium from Africa and refine it into weapons-grade uranium for a nuclear bomb. I believed its claim Iraq had vast quantities of biological and chemical agents. After years of thorough inspections, all of these claims have been disproved.

I believed the administration when it claimed there was overwhelming evidence Iraq was in cahoots with al-Qaida. In January 2004, then-Secretary of State Colin Powell admitted that there was no concrete evidence linking Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida.



I believed the administration when it grandly proclaimed we were going to bring a stable, Western-style liberal democracy to Iraq, complete with religious tolerance and the rule of law. We never had enough troops in Iraq to restore civil order and the rule of law. The Iraqi elections have produced a ruling majority of Shiite fundamentalists and marginalized the seething Sunni minority. Iraq dangerously teeters on the brink of civil war. We have emboldened Iran and destabilized the entire Middle East.

I believed the administration when it claimed the war could be done quickly and cheaply. It said the war would cost only between $50 billion and $60 billion. It said that Iraqi oil revenue would fund the country's reconstruction. I believed President Bush when he landed on the USS Lincoln and said "major combat operations have ended."

The war has cost the American taxpayers $250 billion and counting. The vast majority — 94 percent — of the more than 2,300 United States service members killed in Iraq have occurred since Bush's "Top Gun" proclamation. The cost in men and materiel has been far beyond what we were led to believe.

I volunteered to go back to Iraq for the fall and winter of 2004-2005. I went back out of frustration and guilt; frustration from watching Iraq unravel on the news and guilt that I wasn't there trying to stop it. Many fine Marines from my reserve battalion felt the same and volunteered to go back. I buried my mounting suspicions and mustered enough trust and faith in my civilian leadership to go back.

I returned disillusioned by what I saw. I participated in the second battle of Fallujah in November 2004. We crushed the insurgents in the city, but we only ended up scattering them throughout the province. The dumb ones stayed and died. The smart ones left town before the battle, to garner more recruits and fight another day. We were simply the little Dutch boy with our finger in the dike. In retrospect, we never had enough troops to firmly control the region; we had just enough to maintain a tenuous equilibrium.

I now know I wrongfully placed my faith and trust in a presidential administration hopelessly mired in incompetence, hubris and a lack of accountability. It planned a war based on false intelligence and unrealistic assumptions. It has strategically surrendered the condition of victory in Iraq to people who do not share our vision, values or interests. The Bush administration has proven successful at only one thing in Iraq — painting us into a corner with no feasible exit.

I will never trust any of them again.

Christopher H. Sheppard is a former Marine captain who served two tours of duty in Iraq as a combat engineer. He currently is finishing his master's degree in mass communication and lives in Marysville.

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