Who voted for Bush/Cheney in '00 or '04?

[cloudpeak]

Really now..

While this study was from 1998, the experiences of my kids lend support to its conclusions. My kids attend school in an affluent suburban area and have attended public and private schools.

With two exceptions, their teachers have been shockingly uneducated in math and science. In some cases, the teachers have not taken a science or math course since their own high school days. Instead, these teachers have degrees in education. So, the teachers make the kids read explanations in the text books and then assign large amounts of rote homework. It's a rare teacher who can select appropriate problems because most teachers cannot offer explanations beyond what the teacher's manual tells them.

Until we pay science and math teachers more and require them to have studied math or science at the college level, the decline in math and science performance will continue in this country.

[mr_gyptian]

Americans will soon be the minority as places like MIT/Berkeley/etc.

Please, go ahead, walk around MIT's campus or any large tech/science university for a day, it already looks like they're the minority.

A vast majority of Americans are very happy with being fat stupid and lazy along with making themselves obese on McDonalds then sueing someone because they're too fucking stupid to take care of themselves.

For fucks sake look at this board, half the people want to live the ski bum life and be slack ass bitches in service jobs then turn around and bitch that our country is going to hell in a handbasket. (But there is a vast majority of people here that are very successful contributing members of society.)

Yeah and all these people from other countries do crazy things like start Intel, Google, Linux. I'm more than happy to have them here educating them. These scientists contribute a lot to our country and I hope we help them get their countries up to speed. This fear of our country giving up the golden egg to other foreign nations by educating their citizens is just another form of isolationist bullshit.

[DaveTV]

OK, who stole Mr. G's login...?

[Free Range Lobster]

Yeah and all these people from other countries do crazy things like start Intel, Google, Linux. I'm more than happy to have them here educating them. These scientists contribute a lot to our country and I hope we help them get their countries up to speed. This fear of our country giving up the golden egg to other foreign nations by educating their citizens is just another form of isolationist bullshit.

And how many of the "corporate giants" still do any manufacturing or coding here in the US?

Oh right, almost none.

[mnflyfish]

Maybe it was just a typo and we were supposed to invade Iran all along?

I voted for Bush both times, my thoughts were that of the two candidates he would do the better job. Didn't really matter though, I'm in Minnesota-the only state carried by Mondale.

Anyway, to address your quote. Not to come across as some conspiracy freak but having control of Iraq does give us a much better position in the region to carry out operations in Iran. We no longer have to fly across a hostile country to move on Iran. A move like that would make a ton of sense from a military standpoint.

As for who will be running in the next election. I think you could safely put your money on McCain. He has the best chance out of both parties. As for the guy from WI that mentioned Feingold, not a chance. He's too new on the scene and has very little support nationally. Maybe in 8 years he's a candidate.

There, I think I've addressed all the posts, sorry homerjay for posting it all while using your quote. A fellow just has to be efficient, back to work.

Good Luck,
Jay

[Lone Star]

Americans don't even do those jobs anymore.

racist, now i understand why you call service workers "slack ass bitches"

[mnflyfish]

. Even though he didn't support the war he still supports the troops by voting for the funding support.

Buy doing this he also supported drilling in ANWR, it was all attached to the same bill. What would have defined him would would have been to vote against this bill like his Rep Brothers in Minnesota did, with the exception of Mark Kennedy. My point is, Feingold is no where near ready to make a run at the top job. He could however be a viable running mate. I believe he'll be on the top of the ticket in 8 years, he's just not ready now. The most interesting rumor I've heard is a McCain/Pawlenty ticket. McCain was in Minnesota this week with Gov. Timmy and Pawlenty was promoting his signon with Wisc and Iowa to work together on the Driftless region to restore and protect the region and the trout streams. Seems even though Timmy is a big R guy, his wife is a fly angler and loves to trout fish so there's a little green behind the man. Could make for an interesting National story along with McCain's broad appeal to both sides of the political spectrum.

All the above green stuff aside, I'm a lifelong Republican who's also very active with conservation issues(a hunter and fisherman). An interesting Dem choice might be the Gov of Montana. I can't remember his name but I read an article about him on Slate and he is a pretty commonsense cowboy type. He would make the election interesting for a change.

Good Luck,
Jay

Congrats on the Badger Hockey

[Tippster]

By that argument Cheney is an Environmentalist because he likes to hunt.

[mnflyfish]

By that argument Cheney is an Environmentalist because he likes to hunt.

How do you figure? But Dick Cheney is a member of Trout Unlimited so maybe. Please go and re-read my post, I identified myself as a conservationist. There still needs to be balance between the day to day activities of business and communities while still keeping some clean water and a place for a guy to go and hunt deer or find some untracked mountain. Enviromentalists have made a bad name for themselves by not denouncing the extremeists in their ranks: ie Elf/Alf or the Animal Liberation Front. Enviromental terrorism is a huge problem for the average guy that would just like to drop a line in a clean river or lake. The average joe 6 pack sees these freaks on tv chaining themselves to some tree or shouting down a candidate at a rally and it does far more to hurt their cause than any gains they might hope to make. Now I will be the first to admit that our current administration has promoted some awful bills and plans that could do some real damage to places very important to me. ANWR for instance was a major cluster fuck but my position on it was for purely selfish reasons. The area drains into the Copper River Flowage and I frankly enjoy the salmon that spawn in these rivers. I guess it all depends on what get's you motivated. These bills though are at this time off the table thanks to members on both sides of congress(as an example Sen Dayton, Dem and Sen Coleman, Rep both from MN voted against the ANWR bill). Of course we need to keep a close watch because with the amount of money on the line these same topics will be back again, probibally in the middle of the night. That's when the last ANWR vote came before the Senate. So is a hunter a conservationist, more than likely, is Cheney a hunter? That's the real debate. I'd like to hope so.

Good Luck,
Jay

[Viva]

By that argument Cheney is an Environmentalist because he likes to hunt.

But he hunts people, so doesn't that make sort of him pro-environment?

[mr_gyptian]

And how many of the "corporate giants" still do any manufacturing or coding here in the US?

Oh right, almost none.

you must have me confused with someone that gives two shits about programmers jobs. if you can't compete with your pricing or the service you provide you should probably looking for the next product or service you can provide to maintian your existence.

[MassLiberal]

you must have me confused with someone that gives two shits about programmers jobs. if you can't compete with your pricing or the service you provide you should probably looking for the next product or service you can provide to maintian your existence.

Coupled with your comments that all blue collar americans are slobs, you obviously hate americans.

[Free Range Lobster]

you must have me confused with someone that gives two shits about programmers jobs. if you can't compete with your pricing or the service you provide you should probably looking for the next product or service you can provide to maintian your existence.

Programmers?

What about mechanical engineers? chemical engineers? designers? quality assurance?

Its not just "programming" thats going offshore.

Obviously you need to swing back around to 2006 and check things out.

[Yonder_River]

Anyone getting the feeling that Mr Gyptian is about as selfish as they come?

I can picture him as the little bratty spoiled kid who never shared with anyone.

[Grange]

McCain/Feingold single largest attack on free speech in our time. not only that, but you can thank not only moveon's prominence, every Soros funded action group, and the swift boat boys for it. he needed cricket's chirping for effect after his call for censure. perhaps if he had a leg to stand on he'd have atleats one senator on his side on this issue (Ted Kennedy and John Kerry don't count).

I will give him points for holding the line on his votes, where the GWOT is concerned. I don't agree with him, but he can claim an amount of principal that every other presidential candidate from the senate cannot.

I don't agree with your assessment of the McCain/Feingold bill but that's just a difference in opinion. Your response still doesn't answer my question, How is Feingold a wacko?

[mr_gyptian]

Anyone getting the feeling that Mr Gyptian is about as selfish as they come?

I can picture him as the little bratty spoiled kid who never shared with anyone.

guilty.

MassLib, I said all union laborers are slobs. this would include people like airline pilots, etc.

Lik, so you mean to tell me that I need to tell a chemical engineer how to get a job? you'd think someone as smart as an engineer wouldn't have a problem. but that's just a lowly used vehicle salesman talking. the reason your aforementioned engineers, programmers, and QC people are losing their jobs is they are getting out competed.

you want to know why three more Ford plants are closing? because Ford is getting out competed by Toyota. When you have to continually compete all the while paying your people more money for the same work. meanwhile your competitor pays less to build a better product. not only that, but uses American labor to do so. what do you do? keep paying or change your business model? if you want a continuing entity, changing your business model seems the way to go.

[Free Range Lobster]

Lik, so you mean to tell me that I need to tell a chemical engineer how to get a job? you'd think someone as smart as an engineer wouldn't have a problem. but that's just a lowly used vehicle salesman talking. the reason your aforementioned engineers, programmers, and QC people are losing their jobs is they are getting out competed.

Corporate greed is why they're losing their jobs. Companies are laying off their workers in favor of an Indian, Malaysian, or Chinese who'll do the same work for 1/3 to 1/4 of the pay. (And in most cases less than the standard living wage we have here in the US) Which means more money in the pockets of the people running the show.

you want to know why three more Ford plants are closing?

If I wanted to know why, I'd just ask the person who I do work for who was on Mahogany Row in Detroit.
And there's alot more contributing factors than just Toyota.

[Buster Highmen]

MassLib, I said all union laborers are slobs. this would include people like airline pilots, etc.

This remark falls below the level of civilized discourse, making invalid, personal, broad based attacks against vacuous sterotypes.

Lik, so you mean to tell me that I need to tell a chemical engineer how to get a job? you'd think someone as smart as an engineer wouldn't have a problem. but that's just a lowly used vehicle salesman talking. the reason your aforementioned engineers, programmers, and QC people are losing their jobs is they are getting out competed.

It's not because non Nationals do a better job, it's because they are willing to do it more cheaply, particularly when the parent corporation holds their visa and pays for all the visa reviews.

Obviously if the labor supply is pumped up, the cost of doing business goes down. But at what cost to the labor supply and to America as a whole?

This also has nothing to do with unions, despite the glamorous perjoratives so freely tossed about.

The Free Market economy has a price that can't be trivialized.

I'm not claiming to have answers. I'm just posing questions.

In these discussions, it's interesting to note that the "sides" in the argument cut across political lines. But there is some interesting correlation among sales and investment types versus professionals and people who actually make stuff.

you want to know why three more Ford plants are closing? because Ford is getting out competed by Toyota. When you have to continually compete all the while paying your people more money for the same work. meanwhile your competitor pays less to build a better product. not only that, but uses American labor to do so. what do you do? keep paying or change your business model? if you want a continuing entity, changing your business model seems the way to go.

Another incredibly shallow analysis.

[Kya]

Oh sure, its all the schools fault

Blame it on the schools

Give me a break.

[DaveTV]

Anyone getting the feeling that Mr Gyptian is about as selfish as they come?

I can picture him as the little bratty spoiled kid who never shared with anyone.

[13]

As a moderate democrat, I can see myself casting my ballot for McCain in '08.

To the DNC -- Hillary Clinton? Fuck that shit, dude.

[mr_gyptian]

This remark falls below the level of civilized discourse, making invalid, personal, broad based attacks against vacuous sterotypes.


It's not because non Nationals do a better job, it's because they are willing to do it more cheaply, particularly when the parent corporation holds their visa and pays for all the visa reviews.

Obviously if the labor supply is pumped up, the cost of doing business goes down. But at what cost to the labor supply and to America as a whole?

This also has nothing to do with unions, despite the glamorous perjoratives so freely tossed about.

The Free Market economy has a price that can't be trivialized.

I'm not claiming to have answers. I'm just posing questions.

In these discussions, it's interesting to note that the "sides" in the argument cut across political lines. But there is some interesting correlation among sales and investment types versus professionals and people who actually make stuff.




Another incredibly shallow analysis.

It's because they, non nationals, do the same job for less. if you have a problem with someone's ability to do your job for less, you better figure out a way to either do a better job or find another one that you are better at. and I'm not just talking about what illegals in this country are willing to do. I'm talking about what some call center in India can do. or a silicon chip mfg. in china. or a programmer in malaysia. maybe a screed against corporate greed that's been around since the NYSE was founded will change it?

as far as the Ford situation. we'd all love to hear your take on it Buster. maybe rather that offhandedly saying something is a shallow analysis, you'd like to rebut something?

or is Yoda just asking questions today?

if we wanted a moderator we'd ask frozen to hire one.

[Free Range Lobster]

It's because they, non nationals, do the same job for less. if you have a problem with someone's ability to do your job for less, you better figure out a way to either do a better job or find another one that you are better at. and I'm not just talking about what illegals in this country are willing to do. I'm talking about what some call center in India can do. or a silicon chip mfg. in china. or a programmer in malaysia. maybe a screed against corporate greed that's been around since the NYSE was founded will change it?

No, they don't actually do a better job, they do the same job, just far far cheaper.

Does that make the product cheaper/do the answer the phones better/do they make a better product/do they do a better job AT ALL? No. Does it make the corporate whores richer? Yes.

Bottom line.
And thats how it works.

You're fucking foolish and should stick with trying to sell shitty cars to stupid people.

[PNWbrit]

as far as the Ford situation. we'd all love to hear your take on it Buster. maybe rather that offhandedly saying something is a shallow analysis, you'd like to rebut something?

or is Yoda just asking questions today?

if we wanted a moderator we'd ask frozen to hire one.

The problems Ford and the US auto industry have aren't solely or even largely the result of the evil unionists. How about decades of shitty products, bad managment, over capacity......

[Tippster]

If teachers got paid a competitive salary to some middle managment schmuck filing TPS reports there would be more quality teachers. As it is we're lucky enough to have as many altruistic believers in Education who are willing to work for less pay. I honestly believe our Teachers' Salaries are a National shame. A HS teacher in Germany is respected professionally and paid commensurately. I bet you we'd get better teachers (or at the least be able to draw from a larger pool of applicants, which would have the same results) if we paid better wages.

Thank you, and those like you KYA. If it was up to me you guys would get merit-based salaries w/raises every year. I think our primary education teachers are some of the most important people we have in our society. Shit - you want a person who couldn't cut it in the "real" world teaching your kid, or someone who opted to use their talents to educate without needing to worry about paying the mortgage?