Towing ???- Bumper pull

[DougW]

I've got a 14000# rated equipment trailer bumper pull that right now we don't have a truck that can take that load. Eventually want to get a truck that can tow it fully or close to fully loaded ~ 13000#. But when I go to the GMC site they top out at 12000# for bumper pull and go to higher ratings for goose neck. Is there a 12000# limitation on bumper pull?

We have moved the trailer pretty much loaded with a rental truck, 350 Ford diesel. It strained in the mountains but it go it done. But I know if I had checked the GCVR it won't work on paper.

[lemon boy]

As long as you're good on the:
hitch rating
trailer brakes
and tongue weight

plus pay attention to the actual workup for the gross'es you should be able to pull that with a super duty https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/...trp17Jan06.pdf

I'd bet that the Dodge 3500s would work as well (maybe even their 2500s), sort of surprised that the chubby's won't go that high.

as for the grunt to get er done that's a slightly different discussion (want to have it as well?)

[lemon boy]

power (arrggg arrrggg): 13K is a pretty big load so if you do that a lot you're clearly looking at a diesel but perhaps more important is if you're doing this a lot (eg: primary mission) is getting some nice low gears tossed into the rear end.

Diesels are also pretty well sorted out for modding for some heavy towing depending on vintage a little digging will illuminate a simple formula for bulletproof towing power.

In stock trim any 24v + newer cummins, any 99.5 + newer PSD and any D-max should be nicely capable of moving such a load in the mountians (properly geared) but you'll not be going 75 up hills either. A little modding would put your 12v cummins and 94-97 psd's into the easily adequate powerband as well if you wanted something older.

[splat]

I sure wouldn't bumper pull that much weight, Doug.
And I sure hope you have trailer brakes and a real hitch.

I almost killed an entire freeway of people towing a Uhaul with a press on it (2,000lbs.) last year from LA to Reno. No trailer brakes, zippin along at 70, traffic stops - hit the brakes and nothing happened. Scared the shit out of myself. That was with a V8 Grand Cherokee.

[Snow Dog]

That's a heavy trailer!

My 2001 Dodge towing guide says 10,000 pounds and up should be a gooseneck. A class 5 hitch is 14,000 weight distributing and 12,000 pounds weight carrying so you're pretty close to the limit. Maybe that's where the GMC limit comes from.

The GCVR is a manufacturer's thing. The vehicle decal on the door jamb lists a GVW and GAWR but no combined. In BC the limit is 330 pounds/horsepower combined weight. Assuming the trailer has enough braking the issue is usually the GAWR of the rear axle. It's easy to overload.

The best bet is to contact the Superintendant of Motor Vehicles in BC and Alberta (since each province is different) since they're the ones who enforce those rules.

[DougW]

Trailers got brakes and worked pretty well through the mountains, kicking horse pass, so no worries there. The rental truck had the adjustable gain on the brakes so played with that to get it right. Also played it safe.

One thing about the tongue wieght /rear axial GVWR now won't that be dependent on how you load the trailer? if I center the load on my trailer axials there won't be much weight on the truck. But then this confuses me in that a goose neck or 5th wheel gets the weight right on to the axial but won't that over load the rear axial limit sooner than a bumper pull? Just wondering what I'm missing. I can see stopping , manuvering and stuff being better but I would think that rear axial would be worse, unless its not rear axial but tongue weight.

[Snow Dog]

You're supposed to keep 10%-15% of the trailer weight on the tongue/pin or the trailer will wander.

On a normal hitch the weight point (ball) is behind the axle and lifts the front a little. (The axle acts as a fulcrum and the truck's a lever.) So the added axle weight is the tongue plus a little off the front. On a fifth wheel the pin is on top of the axle and 100% of the pin is on the axle. With a weight distributing hitch this is meaningless -- you 're transfering weight from the rear axle to the front and trailer axles.

The two advantages of a fifth is the whole rig is shorter and backing up is easier.

[ex-groomer]

I have an '05 Dodge 3500 diesel and the manual says tow capacity is 12,900lbs. I tow a 14K capacity trailer but have never gone over 11K. I have a weight distributing hitch set-up which is the safe way to go when towing that much weight. Its also a good idea to have the welds on your hitch beefed up if you tow at or near capacity. Power is not an issue with the Cummins. Gear ratio is 3.73 and I have the 6-speed manual transmission.

[LaramieSkiBum]

a few summers ago I routinely pulled 14k trailer with a ford f350 with powerstroke w/ AT. Pulled just fine. Doesnt meant that you should . When we crossed state lines we had to put it on the bigger rigs due to the laws.

What ever you do, if you have an AT, make sure you turn your overdrive off. One of the other hands totaled a tranny that way.

[lemon boy]

Trailer's got brakes

get a load dist. hitch

and a truck w/ the rating (looks like the ford's might be your only option new)

carefully load 10-15%

Yes, the math works out funny sometimes on the 5er option where the truck is rated to carry a huge amount 5th but then a properly loaded trailer overloads the axle.

[DougW]

LB thanks for the info. It seems like the tow ratings are fuzzy. The only hard number is the GCVR and then make sure everything else works out. As in why does GMC limit bumper pull to 12000 whereas Ford goes to 15000? I think we need to get a truck with a GCVR of al least 22000 and then make sure the hitch will do the job.

[lemon boy]

yeah the exact why a ford should be so much higher is a little obscure but in the end comes down to a mix of everything.

One place where ford has long had the edge over dodge and flat out punishes chevy is the suspension.

[DougW]

Right now going to keep old 1500 though no way it can pull trailer fully loaded, maybe 6000 - 7000lbs tops as the trailer is in the 2500lbs area only leaves 4000lb for cargo.

We would have gotten a 12000# trailer but the skid steer we wanted plus trailer put if very close to over. So the couple 100 $ to go to 7000# axials plus a slighly beefer frame seemed worth it. Glad I did as the skid steer we ended up with has an operating weight of 10,250 lbs so take way the operator but then add the chains and boomers and your back to 10,250.

[BakerBoy]

One place where ford has long had the edge over dodge and flat out punishes chevy is the suspension.

I know nothing about big trucks, will you explain further?

[lemon boy]

BB-

1st Chevy:
They use independent front spuspension (IFS aka: inferior front suspension) which uses tensioned A-arms to support the front end and a CV jointed front 4wd system (if equipped). It is great for general on-road and light duty off-road and lighter towing applications but basically can't hold up to heavy weight and doesn't handle as well when fully loaded. They use a traditional rear setup (leaf springs + live axle) which for heavy hauling is really the best system, their setup is not as well sorted out and the axles are not rated as heavily.

Both Dodge & Ford use variations on the front end based on traditional live axle setups (leaf springs + live axle ford, coil springs + live axle dodge). You can just stack way more weight happily on these and the live axle can hold so much more abuse. Ford's is simply the better sorted out of the two (leafs = happily hold more weight than springs).

Ford's long had the best HD suspensions, something they work hard at.

By way of anaology, suspension wise for heavy duty work:
Chevy = Pocket Rockets
Dodge = Beast 92s
Ford = M103

[DougW]

Ok how about dualies??? Does that just get you around the weight rating on the tires? I thought that the tires were the limiting factor on the rear axial.

[lemon boy]

Yes, duals increase the weight bearing capacity of the rear via the tires.

for towing heavy or extremely bulky: duals handle nicer (primarily greater stability and tracking, especially in wind). Duals suck ass in the snow (Definitely absolutely must get 4wd in snowy climates). If you look at the ford tow guide I put up, only the DRW configureations get the 15K ratings.

of course at 13K you'd be in sight of the SRW 12,500 rating and SRW's are WAY nicer for everyday stuff.

[DougW]

Ok this is beginning to make more sense in the the rating for GMC that topped to at 12000 # were with SRW . The Fords top out with SRW at 12500 not a big diff.

I knew somewhere a long the line tires loading became the limiting factor.

So with a 5th you don't need the 10-15% tongue weight so theoritically you can load more if almost all of the trailer weight load is on the trailer axials.

[Snow Dog]

So with a 5th you don't need the 10-15% tongue weight so theoritically you can load more if almost all of the trailer weight load is on the trailer axials.

Fifths should have about 20% on the pin.

[Snow Dog]

You can skip the pickups and go straight to a 5500/6500 chassis. Or you can pickup (buy) a used little big rig for towing. Good to 60,000 pounds. My brother has a single rear axle cab over tractor with a shorter turning radius than my Dodge truck. Cheap too -- it was around $14,000. He uses it to pull a backhoe and accessories (around 30,000 pounds total). The extra buckets and attachments add up fast.