Do Mormons really affect you?

[MassLiberal]

Well, in order for that to happen, another subject needs to be brought in.

Global warming?

[FiveLarge]

I find it hilarious that whenever you tell someone 'prove god exists' 99 times out of 100 they'll respond with nothing more than 'you prove he doesn't!'

Not terribly convincing, but what can you do I guess.

Fine, to make you happy, here is a form of the cosmological argument for the existence of God. The idea is that we infer the existence of God from what we see in the world. No, this isn't mine, and no, it isn't from AIG. Somehow, I doubt this is going to be helpful...but you wanted something more than me saying "prove he doesn't". Here is a quick summary of the argument, I don't have time to lay out in detail and defend all the premises, but if you're truly interested in digging further, you'll likely have no problem finding the premises in detail.

1. Something exists
2. Each thing that exists is either necessary or contingent.
3. A necessary being would have to be God.
4. The world cannot be a necessary being.
5. There can be only one necessary being.
6. Unless there is a necessary being there cannot be any contingent beings.
7. A necessary being exists.
8. Therefore, God exists.
9. Therefore, only one God exists.
10. The God of theism exists.

Since I'm sure this is way more technical/academic than anyone wants...what would you (anyone) accept as evidence?

[whatcomridaz]

no, I meant webbed feet, like this (kinda gross):
http://home.earthlink.net/~wmluken2/WebFeet2c.jpg

The guy probably swims marginally better than me (not saying much).

I have no idea what the whale hind leg argument is. Tried to google it, but only came back with mumbo jumbo (www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i3/whale_leg.asp)

My personal favorite is the UFO files on the History channel. Love it.

Not sure about your efficiency argument. I think we can all agree that very few things we do are efficient. What percentage of our brain is used?

The diaphragm in whales is vestigial and has very little muscle. Whales use the outward movement of the ribs to fill their lungs with air. Finally, Gould (1983) reported several occurrences of captured sperm whales with visible, protruding hind limbs. Similarly, dolphins have been spotted with tiny pelvic fins, although they probably were not supported by limb bones as in those rare sperm whales. And some whales, such as belugas, possess rudimentary ear pinnae - a feature that can serve no purpose in an animal with no external ear and that can reduce the animal's swimming efficiency by increasing hydrodynamic drag while swimming.

From http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/

I'm not a huge fan of answeringgenesis. I think if they spent more time providing a critical analysis and less time prosletyzing it'd be a much more useful site.

The efficiency argument is geared towards Evolution as a causation of external factors environment and opportunites. A streamlined whale is much more efficient through the water then a square block of wood. Evolution proclaims that shape was designed to ease passage through the water (hence the lost of hind legs, etc) reducing drag and providing more motion per tail thrust. I would expect that to hold true for pregnant or birthing mothers. Usually a mother is much more vulnerable during the gestation period, yet the embryo goes through a myriad of different sequences during this period such as body hair, hind leg buds, olfactory lobes which they abandon before birth. I have no idea how far this prolongs the gestation period but it certaintly doesn't point to a more efficient evolution. (The same argument can obviously be used against ID)



I'm not sure how the web feet mutation in humans can be considered to provide an advantage unless he spends the majority of his time in the water?

the UFO one is pretty damn good too.

[72Twenty]

[Cyber Cop]

Well, in order for that to happen, another subject needs to be brought in.

Global warming?

I've been trying to connect Mormons to global warming for years. Problem is all the mission boys mask their culpability by riding bikes everywhere.

[PNWbrit]

No, that was NOT my proof that God exists; I already stated I see little value in trying to do that with you. Instead, I was inviting you to prove your dogmatic assertion.

My assertion is dogmatic? what the fuck does that make yours?

I can't imagine anything more dogmatic than the argument that a (presume your?) god exists.

Exactly how were you able to make the decision to follow your faith? Careful consideration of all possibilities (including non-existence) and belief systems? Or the usual - "Mum and Dad made me go to church so I kind of grew up in it."

[Cyber Cop]

The diaphragm in whales is vestigial and has very little muscle. Whales use the outward movement of the ribs to fill their lungs with air. Finally, Gould (1983) reported several occurrences of captured sperm whales with visible, protruding hind limbs. Similarly, dolphins have been spotted with tiny pelvic fins, although they probably were not supported by limb bones as in those rare sperm whales. And some whales, such as belugas, possess rudimentary ear pinnae - a feature that can serve no purpose in an animal with no external ear and that can reduce the animal's swimming efficiency by increasing hydrodynamic drag while swimming.

Did anyone else get a hard-on while reading that?

[Buster Highmen]

1. Nothing exists
2. Each thing that doesn't exists is either imaginary or incontinent.
3. A necessary being would have to be potato chips.
4. The world can be a necessary being.
5. There can't be only one necessary being.
6. Unless there is a necessary squat thrust there cannot be any incontinent beings.
7. A necessary being exists suspended in polysorbate 80.
8. Therefore, God doesn't exists.
9. Therefore, no God exists.
10. The God of theism doesn't exists.


OK. I'm sorry, I'll stop teasing. But please stop making a fool of yourself.

[Schmear]

7. A necessary being exists suspended in polysorbate 80.

All this time I thought it was xantham gum.

[golden powder]

The diaphragm in whales is vestigial and has very little muscle. Whales use the outward movement of the ribs to fill their lungs with air. Finally, Gould (1983) reported several occurrences of captured sperm whales with visible, protruding hind limbs. Similarly, dolphins have been spotted with tiny pelvic fins, although they probably were not supported by limb bones as in those rare sperm whales. And some whales, such as belugas, possess rudimentary ear pinnae - a feature that can serve no purpose in an animal with no external ear and that can reduce the animal's swimming efficiency by increasing hydrodynamic drag while swimming.

Still not entirely getting the argument. Are you saying their limbs and bones aren't supposed to be there? I thought the theory was that water mammals evolved from some sort of prehistoric dog. Again, I'm no biologist and I haven't delved deeply into the creationism theories so I don't see the big shock about bones in water mammals.

edit: or is this a "the appendix doesn't do anything, so why do have it if evolutionary theory is bunk" sort of question

[Buster Highmen]

All this time I thought it was xantham gum.

Not in 'The World According To Zippy'.

Now back to editing for you!

[FiveLarge]

My assertion is dogmatic? what the fuck does that make yours?

I can't imagine anything more dogmatic than the argument that a (presume your?) god exists.

Exactly how were you able to make the decision to follow your faith? Careful consideration of all possibilities (including non-existence) and belief systems? Or the usual - "Mum and Dad made me go to church so I kind of grew up in it."

I showed how your assertion is unprovable...show me how mine is. I just gave an example above of how it is rationally provable. That would go against the definition of dogmatic.

Is that what you think "mum and dad made me go to church so I kind of grew up in it."? Please...

[PNWbrit]

1. Nothing exists
2. Each thing that doesn't exists is either imaginary or incontinent.
3. A necessary being would have to be potato chips.
4. The world can be a necessary being.
5. There can't be only one necessary being.
6. Unless there is a necessary squat thrust there cannot be any incontinent beings.
7. A necessary being exists suspended in polysorbate 80.
8. Therefore, God doesn't exists.
9. Therefore, no God exists.
10. The God of theism doesn't exists.


OK. I'm sorry, I'll stop teasing. But please stop making a fool of yourself.

and blessed are the potato chip makers!

[Schmear]

Exactly how were you able to make the decision to follow your faith? Careful consideration of all possibilities (including non-existence) and belief systems? Or the usual - "Mum and Dad made me go to church so I kind of grew up in it."

Now we're getting at something. What causes someone (a presumably rational someone) to believe fervently in something? Particularly something subjective, like god or even skiing. Seriously, this I think is the heart of the matter.

Is it experience? Emotion? It is not nearly always simply robotic acceptance of what is heard or learned.

People who believe in God will naturall try to fit [him] into their overall world view. People who do not will naturally try to squeeze [it] out (a la Buster's #6).

[FiveLarge]

OK. I'm sorry, I'll stop teasing. But please stop making a fool of yourself.

Tease away...I truly don't care. Why would you want me to stop? Isn't it entertaining?

[Dirty Hoar]

The diaphragm in whales is vestigial and has very little muscle. Whales use the outward movement of the ribs to fill their lungs with air. Finally, Gould (1983) reported several occurrences of captured sperm whales with visible, protruding hind limbs. Similarly, dolphins have been spotted with tiny pelvic fins, although they probably were not supported by limb bones as in those rare sperm whales. And some whales, such as belugas, possess rudimentary ear pinnae - a feature that can serve no purpose in an animal with no external ear and that can reduce the animal's swimming efficiency by increasing hydrodynamic drag while swimming.

This certainly supports my theory that whales beach themselves on purpose to speed up evolution. Their sick of the water.

[PNWbrit]

Now we're getting at something. What causes someone (a presumably rational someone) to believe fervently in something? Particularly something subjective, like god or even skiing. Seriously, this I think is the heart of the matter.

Is it experience? Emotion? It is not nearly always simply robotic acceptance of what is heard or learned.

People who believe in God will naturall try to fit [him] into their overall world view. People who do not will naturally try to squeeze [it] out (a la Buster's #6).

I don't have to believe in skiing - it exsists and I enjoy doing it. It is however necessary to believe in a god since it can't be proved.

Factors influencing "choice" of belief systems worldwide: Parental and Societal pressure. Imagine the Mormon kid in SLC telling Mum and Dad he wants to be a jew? Or the Muslim kid in Kabul announcing he wants to worship an Amazonian tree spirit?

Exposing kids to religon is little more than brain washing.

[Buster Highmen]

Tease away...I truly don't care. Why would you want me to stop? Isn't it entertaining?

No, it's really kind of sad.

[FiveLarge]

No, it's really kind of sad.

why?

567890

[Buster Highmen]

I showed how your assertion is unprovable...show me how mine is. I just gave an example above of how it is rationally provable.

This is the really great thing about the internet: I can't tell if you're joking.
My sarcasm meter is fuddled today.

[FiveLarge]

This is the really great thing about the internet: I can't tell if you're joking.
My sarcasm meter is fuddled today.

I like to keep it a surprise. With me, I would say err to the side of not taking me too seriously...I know I'm not.

And on that note, I'm out (for good on this thread). Enjoy the last word (whoever).

[Buster Highmen]

...- it exsists and I enjoy doing it.

I might quibble with you on the first point. However in the spirit of John Stuart Mill, I concede your right to the second point.

[MassLiberal]

Now we're getting at something. What causes someone (a presumably rational someone) to believe fervently in something? Particularly something subjective, like god or even skiing. Seriously, this I think is the heart of the matter.

Is it experience? Emotion? It is not nearly always simply robotic acceptance of what is heard or learned.

People who believe in God will naturall try to fit [him] into their overall world view. People who do not will naturally try to squeeze [it] out (a la Buster's #6).

This is where things get interesting. I hate throwing myself out there like this, but as someone who is young and sober, this is an issue that I struggle with constantly.

The vast majority of people out there who have had struggles with drugs and alcohol in the past generally wind up turning to god in order to get over their addiction. Since they are unable to stop drinking/ using on their own, they turn to outside (as in divine) help in order to do so. This is what makes me question my refusal to believe in a higher power. People who were so hopelessly addicted to alcohol completely turned their lives around when they turned their lives over to god.



Now, I personally don't believe in an omnipotent being, but have worked hard to try and develop a spiritual sense of being, since that does help me during tough personal trials.

[Schmear]

I don't have to believe in skiing - it exsists and I enjoy doing it. It is however necessary to believe in a god since it can't be proved.

If you visited, say, a Bedouin who had never before seen snow or pictures of skiing, how would you convince him that it's real?

[Viva]

I don't have to believe in skiing - it exsists and I enjoy doing it. It is however necessary to believe in a god since it can't be proved.

But these can be oh so orgasmicly related! Consider the high we get from skiing. It is addicting, no? Some people of faith experience the same, or similar, high from worship. And by "same" or "similar" I'm talking about the neurochemical pathways in the brain that control things like addiction, emotion, bonding, etc. In this respect, it's easy to see how some cling to their faith.

Kinda cool, huh?