Near death experience: caught by an avy

[hev]

It seems like people are generally more savy here but the level or risk taking here in cham makes it hard to compare. It's a tough comparison really but overall I have found Chamonix to have more immenent danger than any place I have ever seen and people seem to be always going for it....some more thoughts when I get back home.

[bbirtle]

Yeah I'd be curious to hear what the recent Cham' visitors think.

We're talking about a place where there's a 45 degree sustained 1200ft long often icy slope where every turns is a "75% chance of death if you fall" type thing and looking at it from the Midi bridge today the words "completely tracked out" spring to mind. (!)

Right next door to the above there's a couloir with a 50 degree enterance *after* a one pitch rappel and then a sustatined 40-45 degree slope that goes on for 2500ft, leading to a nasty avalanche prone glaciar and often messy serac negotiation, followed by a 20 minute hike out.

Sometimes it sees moguls.

(Kanutten, sorry for hijacking your thread.)

[James Carvile]

Live and learn it's always a good thing.

[skifishbum]

Glad your allright. Thanks for sharing your experience

[shmoesmith]

Yeah, I'm glad you are alright too...bbirtle was right about the sunny conditions. Me and my wife and friend were almost nailed by one today in LCC. It started out with a few little wet snowballs coming down the chute...then lots of little snowballs, then we heard the WHOOMP. I screamed avalanche to my wife and yelled to her to get to the side as best she could as I watched the cloud coming down at us. Luckily it slammed into a bunch of rocks(slowing it down) and curved around them (kinda like a river) and a huge flow of snow went right past where my wife was standing...She couldnt have been more than 3 feet away from the main flow of snow, pinned up against a rock. I'm just glad we were wearing our beacons and I had reminded her earlier that morning to turn on her beacon while climbing up the chute (the avalanche came down from above while we were climbing up it..somewhere aroudn 10am). All I could think about was how fast I would have to be able to find my wife and dig her out. Shits getting dangerous out there. Is there anyway to avoid avalanches caused by the sun warming up the snow? We thought he chute would be safer from this because it was completely in the shade and north facing..........

[KANUTTEN]

Thanks for the feedback Kanutten. One of the best ways to learn from avalanches, unfortunately, is to analyze the incidents, IMO.

Good advice on the beacon training... I think it's time for a beacon search (and crevass rescue) afternoon for me and my friends and suggest others do the same.

(I'm off to Jungfraujoch on Monday, probably, although hope it doesn't involve an avalanche! Sorry to miss you - next time let's see if we can make it a triple burial. )

I hope you are having a good trip to the magnificent berner oberland area, brian! It really is beatiful, and the peaks you wanna climb look great! I'm sorry we didn't get to climb any of the 4000 meters, but another time i guess...

One other thing when it comes to judging the danger of a slope and a possible avvy. The thickness of the layer can be really important, as in this case. I've seen many slides maybe 200 meter long that are so thin that regardles of where you got caught you could never get fully covered. The one I got caught by was maybe 20 meters long, but the weak layer was about 0.5 meters tall. Also this layer got doubled up on top of me as I stood on the bottom of the slope where the debris piled up. That stuff covered me very easily. So checking with my pole and/or probe how deep the slab is, is something I will do a lot more often.

I was in Engelberg after this incident. Also there you see people skiing stuff with no apparent view to the avvy danger. We were looking at the steinberg (skiers left) before the top lift was opened. And on the steepest part there we judged the avvy danger to be considerable. Steep, windloaded, warmer temperature, everything was in place. Then the toplift opened; and then first one, two skiers down that area. We were looking with wide open eyes. Third skier, snowborder, then another skier. Then, off it goes; just a big cloud coming down the side. Probably a 250-300 meter long slide, not too thick, but still. The skier came out of it allright, luckily.

Then just second laters, to make the insanity complete; Another skier cut across the avvy debris closest to the top rock in order to get to the part of the side that hadn't yet come off. We couldn't fucking believe it; he skied right into the side next by, skied right across it as if he tried to cut it loose with skis as the knife. Then he skied the side. Nothing happened, but I wonder what the heck he was thinking; Those guys don't deserve to be alive...

[James Carvile]

How are you doing today? Sore?

[KANUTTEN]

How are you doing today? Sore?

Sore legs, numb head

[Ripzalot]

wow. dude, glad you made it out alive!

i wonder if an avalung would've been any help in such a situation (heavy wet snow)?

[Lok]

I must have missed this thread somehow. Glad you're ok, Bernt. This makes for a good story though.

And, yes, like Ripzalot I'm curious about the avalung. Do you think you would have been able to get the mouthpiece in place (and keep it there)?

[KANUTTEN]

wow. dude, glad you made it out alive!

i wonder if an avalung would've been any help in such a situation (heavy wet snow)?

First, I want to thank everyone who have given thoughts of concern, comfort and.. you know.. the cyberhug It is much appreciated!

I haven't checked out the avalung mechanism in detail, but my understanding is that you need to get the mouthpiece into your mouth and then the avalungthing can use the O2 in the surrounding snow.

I think the main problem would be, in this instance, that I might not have had enough time to get the mouthpiece to my mouth. Everything happened too quickly. I estimate that the total time from I saw the slab until I was completely cemented into the snow was maximum 5 seconds. And the snow cemented more quickly than I imagined too. When getting covered in snow my thought was to try to swim to the surface (as I've learned one should try). By the time I was about to do my first swim stroke, the whole thing was cement. Maybe my first thought, if I had an avalung, would have been to get the mouthpiece to my mouth as quickly as possible. I still have my doubts if I would be able to do it if I had tried. You know; being confused, fumbling for the mouthpiece, inserting it into my mouth. I can easily see this process take 3 or 4 seconds, and that would possibly be too long. I should add that this avvy took an unusual short amount of time, though.

Will the avalung be able to suck air out of wet and heavy snow; I have no idea.

[hemas]

First, I want to thank everyone who have given thoughts of concern, comfort and.. you know.. the cyberhug It is much appreciated!

I haven't checked out the avalung mechanism in detail, but my understanding is that you need to get the mouthpiece into your mouth and then the avalungthing can use the O2 in the surrounding snow.

Actually snow does infact let the air and O go trough it, even moist heavy snow... The problem is that the moisture in yer breathing will form a layer of ice... which does not let the O2 go trough. So if avalung would most likely helped, taken that you could get the mouthpiece in...
Here's some other fellows account on Avalungs and avy's, from western Suisse:
http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=20435

[KANUTTEN]

Actually snow does infact let the air and O go trough it, even moist heavy snow... The problem is that the moisture in yer breathing will form a layer of ice... which does not let the O2 go trough. So if avalung would most likely helped, taken that you could get the mouthpiece in...
Here's some other fellows account on Avalungs and avy's, from western Suisse:
http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=20435

Actually I don't think there was a layer of ice around my face when Richie found me - I am pretty sure that this snow was still pretty soft due to high temperature (can't guarantee it though). If this is true I might have sucked some air out of that snow anyway.

It sure as hell didn't feel like that though. I was just recirculating that air in my lungs over and over again it felt like... oooohooo..

[Meathelmet]

First, I want to thank everyone who have given thoughts of concern, comfort and.. you know.. the cyberhug It is much appreciated!

DANG!

God to hear that you are okay,mang!

A good,sobering read there too. Thanks for sharing that.

About the avalung and wet snow..
One chap had a story about him getting sluffed out by a small spring avy.
Maybe the same size that your was.
He did get buried up to his armpits,head and arms on the surface.So a good thing?
The only problem that he was in a crouched position and when the snow came to stop,his own knees was pushed agains his stomach so tightly by the snow that he couldnt breath.
Luckily he had friends in place that located him within seconds as they saw his head.
By the time (1min?) they digged the snow out of his front he was allready purple and was loosing consciousness.Luckily he regained his breathing very quickly and didnt sustain more serious injuries that some sore ribs.

The bad thing about the heavier spring snow is that the weight of it easily prevents you breathing in a total (or apparently in a semi) burial.
In that case the avalung is useless.


So avoiding the burial is the shiznitz.

Hint Kanutten : You could by two of theese for the price of your pair of Lotus 120...


http://www.sport-conrad.de/2A_00_Det...ummer=79002001

[KANUTTEN]

DANG!
...
Hint Kanutten : You could by two of theese for the price of your pair of Lotus 120...


http://www.sport-conrad.de/2A_00_Det...ummer=79002001

That would be "the airbag"!

With the lotuses I could have outskied that avvy without a problem

- switch


- to the road


On a serious note: ive thought about the airbag. Two points:

1. I'm not sure about the whole backpack/abs forced combo. Would that backpack be the optimal choice for a 5 day rando trip, with crampons, harness, iceaxe++? Prolly not. I'd like to buy my backpack and airbag separately, but that is not possible now.

2. I think the airbag wouldn't have worked in the avvy I was in. I was, rather clumsily, falling on my back with my head down, after which this thick heavy snow piled up on top of me. I don't think I really moved around much - I just got buried. I have my big doubts if airfilled angelwings would have helped much in that situation. That is if I would have had time to pull the wing releaser.

[Meathelmet]

That would be "the airbag"!

With the lotuses I could have outskied that avvy without a problem

- switch


- to the road

And asked your lift for a change for a nickle!



But yeah,there are definately issues.

I have the 30L myself.
I can fit my skins,trekkers,water,some food,down jacket,FA kit,repair stuff and something small in it,but only with some imagination.
I can imagine that i could fit some extra there if i could leave the goddam trekkers out.
If i would be a minimalist,yeah,i can imagine that i could fit a few days hut-to-hut stuff there. A very minimalistic one. That kind i could comfortably ski with.
But you have the bigger backpack aviable.A 40L one that only weights 700gr more or something.There you could fit your own genepie and all the other stuff...

For the release.
For that kind of incidents.I really dont know.
The balloons are supposed to inflate to full in about 1.5 seconds,so that itself isnt the biggest issue.The biggest issue is that will the added floatation allow you to float "back to the surface" in the time that the avy carries you.
In your case,with such a small runout,i really dont know. Very possibly it wouldnt have the time to make you boyant enough that you would have ended up on the top.With 100 meters more, i definately think you would have been.
Those things are far away of being some miracle makers,but they definately can and will make a difference.
Sometimes.

It´s just that those things add to your percentage of possibility to survive, and for a such a small amount of money.

2 pairs of bindings.
1 ski.
1 flight to the alps.
1 month payment of your car.
2 days of barhopping in NY.

Etc..

For a lot of people that i have talked too, the only hindrance not to buy the bag has been the "coolness factor" of it.You get labeled as a overcautious nerd, as far as they think.
Go figure.

But, there are issues, but give a tought about it?

And do some good lines with your new sticks,mang!!


Hälsningar, Gimpy.

[TurxSki]

...then the avalungthing can use the O2 in the surrounding snow.

Nope, I believe it's the opposite. It takes away the CO2 you breath out

Don't most burials, that aren't trauma victims, die from asphixiation ?
Yeh, normaly the wet/warm breath makes an ice shield around your mouth preventing you accessing any air in the snowpack, and trapping your out-breath.
I guess you wear the Avalung so the mouthpiece is real close to your mouth. On your collar, in your neck gaiter, something like that. Then you can turn your head and grab it with your mouth...maybe