The Test

[altagirl]

It's amazing that Fritchi hasn't hired you as their chief engineer!

Your knowledge of Fritchi's market is simply breathtaking.

I'd be interested to know what the stats actually are on that. Because the only people I know touring on skis less than 90 underfoot are all on dynafits, not Fritschis. In my experience though, most of the people I know who've used Trekkers are (or were) on them because they haven't purchased a separate AT setup yet - they're using them as a stepping stone or because they're cheaper instead of for reliability. Granted, neither of those observations are exactly a scientific sample.

[Endlessseason]

Ofcourse I was just sarcastic about the calling bit. Irony is difficult to express in a foreign language. "Why didn´t they call me" is an expression we use around here when something new turns out to be somewhat of an dissapointment. It means that they should have checked what the market really wanted before launching a new model. It´s obvious that they have made an effort against more torsional stiffness this time. Creds to that.

However... I´m not a random dude. Neither are most people on this forum. Most people here are more skiers at heart than many people who actually work in the skiing business ever will be. I´m a dedicated skier with a lot of knowledge in material and skis in general. I also have a 5 year long technical university education aimed at product development and I look critically at any gear from my backpack to the dv camcorder to the displays of the skipass gates. Some are good, but most have a clear potential of improvement. I am a former world champion in archery and I am sponsored by a manufacturer who let me be a part of their development of new models. Archery is like skiing a gear focusing sport and I´m very interested in optimizing my gear. My sponsor gains a lot in respect for the products and widens his knowledge by asking the right people.

I spend an average of 80 days every year skiing the type of skiing that the FR binding product is directly aimed at. I consider myself beeing a good representative for the consumer group that Diamir is trying to sell this model to. And so are many of you guys also. And I don´t buy freerides because I think they aren´t good enough. Then something is wrong. Award or no award, I know that problably more than 90% of my skiing friends would never buy it in the current or the plus edition due to lack of performance. There are so many skiers who use and accept the extra weight of Securas and Treckers just because the FR or Naxos isn´t solid enough, but still would be interested in a BC binding if there where one that gave them the same feel and safety as alpine bindings. If Diamir put something significally better to the market they would sell a lot more. They could keep the FR, but make a new heavier and more performance oriented binding. I think that a company like Diamir or any other skiing manufacturer could gain a lot in many aspects by talking to certain people on message boards like this. I mean, if Diamir asked around here for example like this:

"We are going to develop our freeriding concept and need your help. What do you prefer:

1) a beefier DIN 14 bindning that holds up better but is 300 grams heavier due to wider and bigger toe wings and a totally new heavy duty heel piece. This binding will only fit a ski that is 90mm:s wide or more.

or 2) A slightly changed old din 12 FR with some new features like a Salomon Profil crosscountry style bottom plate and supercool new graphics. It´s still a super light binding and therefore you have to accept losses in power transmission. "

Would anyone except pure touring skiers choose the second alternative?

If anyone is interested, here just a short describtion of what I think that Diamir should do:

The problem with the older and also this new freeride heelpiece is that they still use the narrow base connection at the back of the arm. It has only about 3 cm:s of support area. This is way to narrow for this type of moving construction as it never can be made as tight as a alpine binding and it´s also quite high above the ski, producing a high torque force. Since almost noone is using FR:s on skis narrower than 90mm anymore they should use this huge advantage directly into the design. If they made the aluminum arm wide all the way or widening out as it gets close to the heel they could use the ideas of the current heel riser and locking mechanism design, but still gain A LOT of torsion stability by positioning the support areas closer to the edges of the ski. Take the current 3cm:s and make it as wide as possible to fit a 90mm ski or just use two of the existing version side by side with a bigger two-in-one locking unit. Then remake the plastic heelpiece into a beefier one that takes full advantage of the wider platform. Also make some changes on the toe. Add more elasticity to the horisontal release motion bye putting wider wings on the toe piece to make it look more like Salomons or current FKS:s. Add metal or use plastic, but make it clearly more massive than it is now. Overall I think it would be possible to do this and just add maybe 300 grams.

Done.

Result: Me and 90% of my friends would most certainly rethink the decision of not buying FR:s.

Very well thought out, and great suggestions.
I know a few peeps who are so frustrated with current FR's and their problems that they've ditched skinning and now make laps with snow shoes. The HUGE advantage there, obviously, is being able to do laps with your favorite, safe, downhill bindings/skis. I'm amazed at how fast snowshoes are. So far, they appear to be as fast, or faster, than skinning on most slopes. I'm just about converted.
Pretty soon many of us won't care what Diamir comes up with in the future because we'll have found a better option.

[Catbert]

Are snowshoes really a better idea? They are way cheaper too. What would the pros/cons be, as I am looking to get an AT setup.

[upallnight]

Very well thought out, and great suggestions.
I know a few peeps who are so frustrated with current FR's and their problems that they've ditched skinning and now make laps with snow shoes. The HUGE advantage there, obviously, is being able to do laps with your favorite, safe, downhill bindings/skis. I'm amazed at how fast snowshoes are. So far, they appear to be as fast, or faster, than skinning on most slopes. I'm just about converted.
Pretty soon many of us won't care what Diamir comes up with in the future because we'll have found a better option.

I agree MnO has some good points, and I know what you're saying about being comfortable on your downhill gear....

But there is no way oging uphill in snowshoes is anywhere near as fast or efficient as someone setting a solid skintrack.

[upallnight]

Are snowshoes really a better idea? They are way cheaper too. What would the pros/cons be, as I am looking to get an AT setup.

Pro = cheap and you can use alpine gear for your descent
Con = slower than an efficient skintrack; you have to carry the heavy gear (alpine boots + bindings) on your back; you will definitely have to break trail (or if you 'shoe on the skintrack it's considered bad form)

With all due respect, I think it would be hard to argue that snowshoes are more efficient than skins. Look at the recent rando races -- how many are won by snowshoers?

While those are elite athletes, the same is true for "regular" folks, too.

Just my $0.02.

[Z]

quote MnO,"There are so many skiers who use and accept the extra weight of Securas and Treckers just because the FR or Naxos isn´t solid enough, but still would be interested in a BC binding if there where one that gave them the same feel and safety as alpine bindings. "

OOoohh I can't stand it. I just know everyone is gonna hate me for this. I think Fritchis and naxos and all the touring bindings out there suck! Oh, I feel so much better now. Yes, They are all complete shit IMO. Sorry for the outburst, I am going back to lurking now.

You are actually in the right place if you think like that....Sort of.

Personally, I will happily lug my trekkers and p18s up, so i can rip shit on the way down.

Trekkererers unite! er something.

[Catbert]

Never thought about the boot part. That'd pretty much be impossible to put on cold boots.

and trekkers would be sick if they didn't constantly break.

[Endlessseason]

Pro = cheap and you can use alpine gear for your descent
Con = slower than an efficient skintrack; you have to carry the heavy gear (alpine boots + bindings) on your back

I snowshoed today as fast as an adjacent skinner. None of us take off our alpine boots to snowshoe. The snowshoes are made to fit ski boots.

[upallnight]

I snowshoed today as fast as an adjacent skinner. None of us take off our alpine boots to snowshoe. The snowshoes are made to fit ski boots.

For real?

I stand corrected!

Some honest questions: Were you and the skinner in similar shape? Did you mirror the skin track, or did you go straight up while the skin track was low angle?

I'm very intrigued as I've never personally seen anyone snowshoeing close to the speed of a skinner.

Thanks for the information.

[upallnight]

You are actually in the right place if you think like that....Sort of.

Personally, I will happily lug my trekkers and p18s up, so i can rip shit on the way down.

Trekkererers unite! er something.

I've been "ripping shit" on my Fritschis and Diamirs for 9 years. I've skied them on steep lines over 1000 feet of cliffs (think: closed casket funeral) on the Grand. They are solid.

I think the Trekkers definitely have their place and value, but one issue with them is the height -- they're even taller than a Fritschi -- which makes it hard to follow a steep skin track.

I do take exception to people thinking that Fritschis are essentially "unrideable". It just ain't true.

Don't want to start a war, but all these devices have pros and cons; each has its place.

[Z]

I've been "ripping shit" on my Fritschis and Diamirs for 9 years. I've skied them on steep lines over 1000 feet of cliffs (think: closed casket funeral) on the Grand. They are solid.

I think the Trekkers definitely have their place and value, but one issue with them is the height -- they're even taller than a Fritschi -- which makes it hard to follow a steep skin track.

I do take exception to people thinking that Fritschis are essentially "unrideable". It just ain't true.

Don't want to start a war, but all these devices have pros and cons; each has its place.

Bad usage on my part. You rip, no doubt, as do MANY people on freerides...and dynafits (know a dude named trackhead?)

BUT I like to huck. Alot. I've also been told that I don't really have a problem with flat landings, and maybe that's my fault, but freerides do NOT like that. I would pre-release/walk mode all the time....DIN 11-12, forward pressure more than normal. Maybe I had a bad mount, I dunno. But that's just my experience...

I also found them sloppy and WAY too tall. But I have a high center of gravity already and with freerides im 7 feet tall.


just my 2 cents

edit- for normal skiing i didn't have that many problems, but I do know I wouldn't be NEARLY as comfortable skiing above exposure on them. Props to you for that.

[lemon boy]

I've been "ripping shit" on my Fritschis and Diamirs for 9 years. I've skied them SOLO BITCHES! on steep lines over 1000 feet of cliffs (think: closed casket funeral) on the Grand. They are solid.

fixed er for ya

[Sphinx]

The most badass of modern ski mountaineering trips are being done on randonee gear. If it works for McLean, the Marolt brothers, Lou Dawson, Marmot, etc, it'll work for me.

Plus, I'm fat and slow. I have enough trouble keeping up on big days, I don't need an extra twenty pounds on my feet when trudging up a glacier.

I suspect people here have different definitions of a typical backcountry day. How much vert, how many hours, how much trailbreaking. Apples and oranges.

[upallnight]

fixed er for ya

thanks, lb!! you rock! ;-)

that particular descent wasn't solo, though.

most of my tours, historically, are relatively mellow descents, but I've just heard so many people talking about how the Fritschis suck that I have to stand up in their defense because they've worked so well for me for so long. (1 problem in many years, and it happened on a groomer)

[Z]

But what's an average backcountry day for you? 7000 feet of skinning? Or skinning 200 feet from the top of the lift? I suspect that peoples' definitions of 'backcountry' are vastly different.

TOTALLY. I am a sidecountry skier. Through and through. I'm there for the downhill, that's it.

When I slander freerides i talk only of their downhill abilities. They rule uphill. If there is a "hell", when i get there, I will be sidehilling on trekkers for all of eternity.

You've got me pinned Sphinx, and I got no problem with it. I just wish there was a freeride type binding that take some abuse.


edit - whoa. Yer freaking me out man.....Time for another beer.

[Sphinx]

Heh, sorry, I edited my post while you were responding.

It's just an important distinction to make. You can't take a Ferrari rock crawling. If you're going uphill 90% of the time, you'll have to compromise with the gear, and adjust your skiing style for the new gear. I agree that Fritchis are somewhat sloppy, even with my shitty technique it's noticeable. Another reason to switch to Dynafit next year. If I have the money.

I've never been on alpine gear, but the ex-racers who now ski the backcountry all say that you just have to tweak your style to fit the gear - and they all fucking rip. YMMV.

Oh, and one more edit: why do you need a touring binding for sidecountry? That's what trekkers were designed for!

[upallnight]

Bad usage on my part. You rip, no doubt, as do MANY people on freerides...and dynafits (know a dude named trackhead?)

BUT I like to huck. Alot. I've also been told that I don't really have a problem with flat landings, and maybe that's my fault, but freerides do NOT like that. I would pre-release/walk mode all the time....DIN 11-12, forward pressure more than normal. Maybe I had a bad mount, I dunno. But that's just my experience...

I also found them sloppy and WAY too tall. But I have a high center of gravity already and with freerides im 7 feet tall.


just my 2 cents

edit- for normal skiing i didn't have that many problems, but I do know I wouldn't be NEARLY as comfortable skiing above exposure on them. Props to you for that.

Hucking? No doubt -- the Fritschis aren't the best thing out there...absolutely no argument from me there. Sorry... I do jump on mine plenty without worrying about it, but I'm sure I'm not going anywhere near as big as you are. (The drops tend to be smaller and continuous with a descent.)

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post as claiming Fritschis were less than stellar for "normal" skiing. Even if that was your point, it's important for it to come out....but I really just wanted to make sure there was a counter-point out there, too, so people could make an informed decision.

Were you really walking out of them "all the time"? I'm really just amazed because I have had 100s (500?) of days on all Frtischi models and never just walked out of one (and only once had "insta-tele")....so if this was happening often to you (other than hucks), it seems like something was wrong. If that was happening to me, there's no way I would want to ski them at all, let alone on an exposed line.

One theory I've had is that I've always ridden my Fritschis with AT boots (stiff AT boots, but AT boots nonetheless). I was thinking that a stiff alpine boot flexes far less than an AT boot, and this causes the binding to absorb more of the stress in the system than one where a softer (relatively) AT boot is coupled with the Fritschi binding and both elements absorb some of that stress.

Seems like more problems I've learned about with Fritschis have been with riders using alpine boots.

Just a thought.

These days I split time between my Fritschis & Dynafits. I tend to get more time on skis mounted w/ Fritschis in mid-winter, and the boards with the Dynafits get more use in the spring.

Peace.

[Z]

Heh, sorry, I edited my post while you were responding.

It's just an important distinction to make. You can't take a Ferrari rock crawling. If you're going uphill 90% of the time, you'll have to compromise with the gear, and adjust your skiing style for the new gear. I agree that Fritchis are somewhat sloppy, even with my shitty technique it's noticeable. Another reason to switch to Dynafit next year. If I have the money.

I've never been on alpine gear, but the ex-racers who now ski the backcountry all say that you just have to tweak your style to fit the gear - and they all fucking rip. YMMV.

Oh, and one more edit: why do you need a touring binding for sidecountry? That's what trekkers were designed for!

All true. But in the springtime when I DO go for longer walks, I definitely miss their climbing ability. Occasionally longer days in the winter....

You've never been on alpine gear? Ex-tele? Jump on some metal bindings for a day then get back to me.

"Seems like more problems I've learned about with Fritschis have been with riders using alpine boots."

Very possible. I've only skied them alpine, also on a soft ski. So maybe that's the problem. Or maybe I just suck, who knows

[Endlessseason]

For real?
I stand corrected!
Some honest questions: Were you and the skinner in similar shape? Did you mirror the skin track, or did you go straight up while the skin track was low angle?
I'm very intrigued as I've never personally seen anyone snowshoeing close to the speed of a skinner.
Thanks for the information.

Yes, fo reals. The skinner was in better shape than me. I'm overweight and I hate hiking. I would never hike if there wasn't skiing at the end. I think it's stupid. But, I digress. The need for pow skiing sometimes overpowers my distaste for climbing for turns.

In today's case I "mirrored" the skinner. They worked exceptionally well for this in very deep snow. When the 'hoes were off, I postholed up to my crotch. I weigh 225, probably 250 with skis and pack on.

We haven't experimented with all slopes, conditions, and angles yet, but from what I've seen I'm impressed with 'shoes. Where you really see a difference is on slopes of more than 35 degrees. Shoes go right up the fall line. Many skinners have to zigzag up, expending much more energy and time with those extra steps. As for what "badass mountaineering types" are doing, I really don't care. I'll do what makes sense for me and is more energy efficient. If it turns out that snowshoes end up working better after these experiments that's what I'll use, regardless of what everyone else does.

Heck, a perfect example is carrying skis over the shoulder. All the "core" skiers carry their skis with their tips forward, right? Why? For many people that's not balanced. I found out a long time ago that for the easiest carry and best balance for me I hold the tails in my hand, with my shoulder between the bindings, tips rearward. You wouldn't believe how many times people have tried to correct me. What the??!! Are you carrying to look a certain way or to not fall off a ridge line?

Even when I've shown some buddies that it's more comfortable to carry them opposite everyone else, they've decided they'd rather look like everyone else and not stand out. I'm glad I don't give a rats how the "core" skiers lug 'em.

So far, skinning is not winning out on our time trials. Besides, the way I look at it, even if I end up a couple minutes behind my buddies on a thousand vert climb, if I get to use my A-equipment on each pow run I don't give a crap if I'm not at the top first.

How's that for Saturday night venting?

[upallnight]

Or maybe I just suck, who knows

No way! From what I've read/seen, you're a ripper!

The problem would be exacerbated, I think, with stiff boots + soft skis.

[bossass]

Yes, fo reals. The skinner was in better shape than me. I'm overweight and I hate hiking. I would never hike if there wasn't skiing at the end. I think it's stupid. But, I digress. The need for pow skiing sometimes overpowers my distaste for climbing for turns.

In today's case I "mirrored" the skinner. They worked exceptionally well for this in very deep snow. When the 'hoes were off, I postholed up to my crotch. I weigh 225, probably 250 with skis and pack on.

We haven't experimented with all slopes, conditions, and angles yet, but from what I've seen I'm impressed with 'shoes. Where you really see a difference is on slopes of more than 35 degrees. Shoes go right up the fall line. Many skinners have to zigzag up, expending much more energy and time with those extra steps. As for what "badass mountaineering types" are doing, I really don't care. I'll do what makes sense for me and is more energy efficient. If it turns out that snowshoes end up working better after these experiments that's what I'll use, regardless of what everyone else does.

Heck, a perfect example is carrying skis over the shoulder. All the "core" skiers carry their skis with their tips forward, right? Why? For many people that's not balanced. I found out a long time ago that for the easiest carry and best balance for me I hold the tails in my hand, with my shoulder between the bindings, tips rearward. You wouldn't believe how many times people have tried to correct me. What the??!! Are you carrying to look a certain way or to not fall off a ridge line?

Even when I've shown some buddies that it's more comfortable to carry them opposite everyone else, they've decided they'd rather look like everyone else and not stand out. I'm glad I don't give a rats how the "core" skiers lug 'em.

So far, skinning is not winning out on our time trials. Besides, the way I look at it, even if I end up a couple minutes behind my buddies on a thousand vert climb, if I get to use my A-equipment on each pow run I don't give a crap if I'm not at the top first.

How's that for Saturday night venting?

Good comments, Endless. Something I've considered, but never thought or heard would work well. What shoes do you use and how's it riding down with them. I assume you lash them to your pack.

[upallnight]

How's that for Saturday night venting?

This is good info about the 'shoes, actually. Thanks for responding.

I have not personally witnessed 'shoers keeping up, but the sample I've seen is really limited. Setting (and holding) a skintrack straight up is often more energy than it's worth (as a joke/stupid male competitiveness thing, a buddy and I tried skinning up Shasta without any switchbacks to see who would fall off first....and it was a helluva lot of wasted energy for the stupid game -- like using full upper-body strength not to slide backwards on the firm snow)....but I can see how hiking straight up in shoes would be much more energy efficent.

(Skinning at a lower angle is usually faster (and undoubtedly smarter) in most all cases.)

(Re: carrying skis -- for me, tips forward works simply because my arm acts as a perfect counterweight when my hand is on the tip. I would think the best thing varies for each person based on the length & weight of the ski and personal body type (e.g., arm length).

[Sphinx]

You won't catch me dead on snowshoes with skis on my back, but whatever floats your boat...

I hucked three feet to pow last weekend, and my Freerides didn't explode.

TOP THAT, BITCHES!!

[Endlessseason]

Bossass, so far we've only experimented with the standard cheapos from Gart and REI that sell for about $69 right now. I am very intrigued with a setup I heard about that sells for around $150. Evidently, it's two 'shoes in one. There is the base unit that works for most climbing, and then there is some sort of larger, lightweight, webbed part that snaps to the platform of the base unit to create an even larger platform for super deep, light powder. I haven't seen it but it sounds cool. If it really works like it sounds, it seems to me that might be the ticket.
And yes, the 'shoes fit fine in larger packs or strap nicely to the outside of smaller packs. They're so light you don't even notice you're carrying them.

[upallnight]

I never tried 'em personally, but weren't "Verts" marketed toward people bootpacking steep stuff? That would sure save alot of energy over wallowing in a knee-deep trench up a couloir (yet wallow I do).