NSR- Scary Report on sea Ice levels

[soul_skier]

i feel sad, there is a chance that ours will be the last generation to get truly epic snowfall

[MassLiberal]

I agree with you 100% on china taking care of china, I think the thrust of the article was that their goal was to emerge as a leader in the technologies which offset the effects of burning carbon based fuels and which would eventually supplant the need for such fuels in the long run. Lets face it, whomever controls or develops these techs first is the nation that holds the keys to the future. This is why I am so concerned by the lack of urgency on this matter. Instead of leading the world we are shamefully sitting in the back seat and letting other countries overtake us.

[Cono Este]

That might be something I could support. Maybe, under the right circumstances. But the worlds largest polluters would have to have the tightest restrictions placed on them, it only makes sense. That simply isn't going to happen. China will never accept restrictions on their production. Even if they signed a treaty it wouldn't be followed, and if people thinks that the western world has a problem with pollution, just wait a decade of so and let China get geared up. They are going to dwarf anything the western world has done. So unless the world is willing to go to war with China over this issue, a global treaty is, and will continue to be, meaningless.

Yeah but we could have the UN enforce it, everyone would have to comply, they always do. Dont they?

Thats why Kyoto was a waste of time. China and Indonesia were not apart of it. Im not sure about India. Anyone know?

I have been to a few places in China and it reminded me of a painting I have of Industrial Birmingham in the Victorian age. Very foggy. Nothing will stop them from raping the earth and their working class except for a round of rice wine.

Totally sucks. Thanks for bumming me out ML.

[MassLiberal]

Sorry, dude, I'm glad you're in the conversation though.

[Dr. Gaper]

However, China is already looking to offset the environmental costs of it's industrialization. There was an article in the atlantic (i think)a year ago that referred to this. It had also mentioned that the Chinese had realized that there was a lot gain in the eye of world wide public opinion if the made certain environmental concessions.

(I would search for this, but my Expanded Academic Index access is restricted currently)

I'm sorry, but without a link, I call bullshit.

[Blurred]

Slant in an article covering the little ice age? Please explain. Or is the idea of the Dutch ice skating on the canals in the 1600's really too much for you to handle? Thanks for the knee jerk reaction, it's pretty damn funny.

Good thing they didn't have cars back then, they would have been swimming instead.

Global warming, just like many other things is contributed to more than just one thing. Man can and lately has played a part, but isn't completely responsible for all global climate. That's just stupid.

Do you agree that cutting down the rain forests in the Amazon is increasing global warming too?

[365wp]

I think China will take care of China above all else.

Without a doubt. However, at some point the cost of using oil + coal, plus the healthcare costs associated with heavy pollution, will force them to go a different route.

They're getting into the nuclear business very quickly, and the Three Gorges Dam show how serious they are about getting rid of fossil fuel production. Of course, it's kind of trading one evil for another (over one million displaced for the dam, more nuke material around might not be a good thing security-wise, etc.).

I'm interested in their breeder reactors and how China might create technology that we could use to make nuclear power cheaper and safer (both from a Three Mile and a suitcase bomb point of view) here.

[Cono Este]

However, China is already looking to offset the environmental costs of it's industrialization. There was an article in the atlantic (i think)a year ago that referred to this. It had also mentioned that the Chinese had realized that there was a lot gain in the eye of world wide public opinion if the made certain environmental concessions.

(I would search for this, but my Expanded Academic Index access is restricted currently)

They do not give a flying fuck about what anybody thinks of them. Thats just my opinion. But as you know, I am biased.

[MassLiberal]

Ahh, they don't give much a flying fuck about anything, unless it gives them the ability to overtake the US, which is what, I believe they are going for.

[MassLiberal]

Yes, But the academic index makes me feel smarter

[Blurred]

Ever heard of Google?
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...ent_404062.htm

Blurred - step away from the "stupid" absolutes by just a fraction and you'll have it about right.

The Earth has gone up and down in temps all throughout time, without any help from man.

[Cono Este]

Ahh, they don't give much a flying fuck about anything, unless it gives them the ability to overtake the US, which is what, I believe they are going for.

Maybe, but they are bastards anyway.

[MassLiberal]

agreed. But they make really tasty duck.

[Cono Este]

agreed. But they make really tasty duck.

i ate donkey when i was there. Hunan Donkey. Actually the best meat I have ever had. Very tender. When I found out, i kept eating. when in rome/

[Blurred]

From which we are supposed to conclude ...?

Oh, I get it - veerry subtle!

By implying that the mere existence of internal climate variability refutes the claim that recent warming is largely anthropogenic, you seek to establish an unassailable claim on idiocy.

Claim granted.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think the 1 degree temperature change over the past century is neccesarily enough time to make a correct evaluation. Give it a few more centuries before jumping to conclusions.

[fez]

The Earth has gone up and down in temps all throughout time, without any help from man.

yes, global temperature has fluctuated with no input from man. the recent changes have been different however. first of all, there is no longer a 'down', just up. now, some theorists claim that the melting of the polar ice caps could cause a change in the halocline that could alter ocean currents enough to cause some global cooling, but this is a pretty outside possibility. there is also the possibility of a large eruption like krakatoa (ranier anyone?) that could throw enough aeresol particles into the atmosphere to cause another 'year without a summer'. the reality is, global temperatures are increasing.

but the rate of change is the real issue. while you are correct in grasping that global temperatures have been increasing since the last ice age, the interesting data is that the rate of change over the last century is unprecedented. yes, there are a myriad of factors leading to global warming, but only one is stastically significant. the rate of change caused by greenhouse gasses dwarfs all other possible causes of temperature increase. the real fact of the matter is the planet is heating up, ice caps are melting, species are facing extinction, storms are intensifying, and the cause is the burning of fossil fuels.

[warthog]

From which we are supposed to conclude ...?

Oh, I get it - veerry subtle!

By implying that the mere existence of internal climate variability refutes the claim that recent warming is largely anthropogenic, you seek to establish an unassailable claim on idiocy.

Claim granted.

So he can't speak in absolutes, but you are absolutely certain that man is to blame? That sounds a bit hypocritical.

Why is there never a grey area with this subject? Why is it that the seas will rise and the snow will not fall ? Couldn't it just be a small change?

If a bunch of scientists start buying up land in Arizona, then I might start worrying. Until then, I'll do my part and watch China and India destroy their half of the world.

[Cono Este]

The probablitity of Nuking ourselves is a far far greater threat to the enviorment right now than anything else. If you care about a 1 degree temprature change so much, wait until the Nuclear Jihad arrives. Dont get rid of those old rock skis for now.

[fez]

and nuclear war is also about the only human controllable event that could quickly reverse global warming.

[summit]

one should understand that China's idea of mitigating environmental damage has nothing to do with decreasing their emissions (unless economic benefit is the primary motivator). It has much more to do with not having factories explode and spill enormous amounts of carcinogens into their rivers (that eventually flow into Russia)

[watersnowdirt]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe...

China and India have both signed the Kyoto Protocol, but are not bound to reduce their carbon emissions to the same standards (not sure why).

Indonesia has signed the Kyoto Protocol.

Most notably of course, the US has NOT ratified the Kyoto Protocol (embarassing and shameful, in my opinion).

And Blurred - agreed - since forests are carbon sinks, yes - deforestation definitely contributes to carbon emissions which contributes to climate change.

It's also largely acknowledged that a 3 degree change in our climate will be devastating, though it doesn't sound like much.

[Telenater]

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think the 1 degree temperature change over the past century is neccesarily enough time to make a correct evaluation. Give it a few more centuries before jumping to conclusions.

You just don't fucking get it.

1 Degree isn't anything we will personally notice by itself. However, 1 Degree of warming globally is a lot of added energy in a variable system. When you increase the net energy in a system you increase the magnitude of it's swings.

We'll have more severe storms, more droughts, and more extremes of all types. But beyond that, we have a number of climate systems that involved in feedback loops that are not fully understood. Arctic Ice is one that could just be a precursor. Desertification has accelerated in some cases. Sea level rise should be a major concern as should the loss of carbon sequestration in rainforests.

One of my bosses just spent some time in China working with the government's environmental scientists. China will take care of China. That is absolutely true, but they also know that the current government came into power based on the peasant class and that the peasant class's wellbeing depends on the environment. China may be lagging so far, but they have a tremendous capability to change their methods faster than the US has.

[Cono Este]

In the end, man will be responsible for Global Warming. NUKES. Im not being dramatic either. Think about it. The first time ever in human history, 1 lunatic can do it. We are all on borrowed time. Sorry if it depresses you, but it is kind of on topic, and i just saw a scary movie about it.

[uglymoney]

The probablitity of Nuking ourselves is a far far greater threat to the enviorment right now than anything else. If you care about a 1 degree temprature change so much, wait until the Nuclear Jihad arrives. Dont get rid of those old rock skis for now.

So we spend billions of dollars trying to prevent nuclear explosions from happening. A one degree shift upwards in temps will likely cause the oceans to swell and violent storms to become more frequent, potentially destroying coastal cities ... so it doesn't seem out of line to me to allocate resources to limit CO2 output, to pass legislation to limit CO2 output via incentives, taxes and tax rebates, grants, and targeted spending that will help citizens use less fossil fuels.

In other analogous words, it makes sense to me that I still shit in the toilet, not in the river even though I know my crap would flow south till towards New Orleans, which has already been turned into the worlds biggest sewer by the worst hurricane season in history.

[MeatPuppet]

Without a doubt. However, at some point the cost of using oil + coal, plus the healthcare costs associated with heavy pollution, will force them to go a different route.

Huh? Health care costs?!? The Chinese government thinks of it's population as an expendable commodity. A resource to be used up. There will be no prohibitive health care costs for the Chinese government. That is a western fantasy.

They're getting into the nuclear business very quickly, and the Three Gorges Dam show how serious they are about getting rid of fossil fuel production.

Again...Huh? Getting rid of fossil fuel production? They are looking for energy anywhere they can get it.

Of course, it's kind of trading one evil for another (over one million displaced for the dam, more nuke material around might not be a good thing security-wise, etc.).

I'm interested in their breeder reactors and how China might create technology that we could use to make nuclear power cheaper and safer (both from a Three Mile and a suitcase bomb point of view) here.

Maybe my sarcasm detector is broken, but if it isn't and you are serious about this...

I'm not really sure where to start here, except to say that you need to find another source for your information. There are too many presuppositions here that have no connection to reality for me to even start to comment on them